An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

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posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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I guess I'm just talking to myself... As usual. OK, how many people on this thread have worked testing craft in AeroSpace... or had anything to do with DOD programs...Raise your hands.

(my hand is up)




posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Imtor
 


A bit harsh in your words there but I agree with what you're saying, some skeptics just totally overlook evidence or try to make up any other excuses they can find.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by dpd11
 
My hand is down.

The thing is that there comes a point in the life of a prototype airframe when it's going to leave the nest and be flown outside of the testing grounds. The Blackbird (SR-71) could hit Mach 3 and needed to be flown outside of Burbank. Same for the U-2 which was held responsible for a number of late 1950s UFO sightings. If you want any evidence of this I can show you.

Recently we've had the Hale-D airship crash. It wasn't a great secret and Lockheed Martin were happy to publicise it. There's a video on YT that's worth a watch.

The Needles crash was seen by more witnesses than the Cash-Landrum incident, involved helicopters and the NNSA. In NW England there was a few reports of triangular crafts back in the 90s. As it turned out RAF Warton had been testing UAVs .

The point I'm trying to make is that although it appears unlikely that the object was a prototype, we can't rule it out.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 04:12 PM
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Here's the deal people... You want to know why the general public laughs when anybody brings up UFOs, and basically thinks anybody that's interested in UFOs is a nut? This thread is a perfect example... Look at the way people act concerning these subjects. I've spent probably 150 hours investigating this. I've talked with people down there. I've talked with people in the industry. I've talked to people I know that actually DID work on the programs that have been mentioned. I myself am an educated person that works in the industry.... It didn't have anything to do with those programs. It didn't have anything to do with something remotely like that. If I didn't know what I was talking about, I'd just shut up and not say anything.

So I try and put out all I've learned about the subject, through actual EFFORT... Not just reading a website or watching a TV show... Thinking I could share my findings like a rational person. But what do you get for the effort? You get the usual response... Some hysterical person posting a reply, ranting and raving about I don't know what... claiming that I said 'nothing happened'... which I didn't. In fact I said the exact opposite... Saying I called the old guy who saw the helicopters 'a liar', which I never said... I said I thought he DID see them. The person who made that post is acting like a complete lunatic... but then what happens? You of course get multiple people (including the OP) backing him up and and saying they agree. Even though I never said any of the things he's ranting about.

I've yet to see anybody (including the OP) even be able to mark the right spot where it happened on a map. But I of course have no idea what I'm talking about, according to the UFO community.

Kelly Johnson and Jack Northrop could both come on here and try to explain something, and people on here that don't know jack s**t, sitting at home watching youtube videos all day, would call them a bunch of names and say they don't know anything, and half the people on here would cheer them on. It's absurd. And that's why the general public laughs at UFO stuff and thinks it's a giant joke... and that's why none of these cases will ever be solved. Nobody that has any real knowledge about this stuff is ever going to waste time trying to explain anything, because it goes in one ear and out the other.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by dpd11
Well... It's a totally lame answer, but I don't think it would be right to say exactly. If I'm right, then it would in fact still be a secret. Nothing that would stop the world from turning, but still a secret that could be damaging to our image. And besides, nobody here is going to agree with me anyway.

Unfortunately I can't find my notes... But I believe this is the spot that the show claimed was the area. I took this from when they showed the sign of a cross street, and also that gas station.

www.bing.com...

However, if you follow what they said in the transcript carefully, it seems to be an area farther north. They said they turned the corner and the light came into view. That would most likely be the large turn on the road to the north, when it goes from east to south and then stays straight. It would be possible that it happened in the wooded area just below the turn. as that is the most isolated area on that part of the road. But this is the spot where I believe it happened...

www.bing.com...

Older images show that spot had only one or two homes nearby in that time frame. And I believe that the core of the story involves helicopters, and only helicopters. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.

That's assuming that all this went down anywhere near the way they claim at all, which I think is probably about 50/50. As I said, there are many odd things about their story that don't make sense.

But there is a fire station south of that point on that road, which I believe existed at that time. I have not been able to find anybody who worked there then. But I would say, that would be your best bet for learning what, if anything, happened. If they don't know, then I think the whole story would have to be questioned. That would have been the best place to try and investigate on the show, but of course they didn't do that.

OP, I think you confused some of the things I said... I never said nothing out of the ordinary happened. I think there's a good chance it did. I just don't think it was a test of some sort of craft or whatever, and here's why...

When you test any sort of craft, or even an engine... you are strictly confined to where it can be done. Any prototype is loaded with sensors and telemetry equipment. That basically makes that prototype priceless. If it is lost, then it's a huge blow to a program. So being in any old area where civies are flying around and all kinds of other stuff, is the last thing you'd want. When a craft is tested, it has to be done on a specific range that is setup for testing. Dozens, if not hundreds of people are involved. The data has to be systematically collected and disseminated in a very repeatable fashion. To do this, you have to have all kinds of Engineers and support people available to deal with the intricacies of that particular craft. The telemetry is collected over the range by monitoring stations in fixed positions and relayed to a mission center. So when all of this is done, it's done in areas that specifically exist for these sorts of tests. Each sortie is very involved and pre-planed for days, and all the data is collected in a very scientific fashion. There is no such facility like that in TX. Contrary to what some people think, you don't just hop in a secret prototype craft and start flying around wherever you want... It just doesn't work like that.

The comment she made about looking for Jesus to come out of it... All I'm saying is that, it sort of shows that maybe they didn't make the worlds best witnesses.


As much as I have to say that this is a very interesting sighting, I have to agree with many of the points you are making here. I just can't imagine any scenario where the US Army would be flying around an experimental craft of this description over civilian areas - especially accompanied by 23 or whatever Chinook helicopters.

Something doesn't make sense about this sighting. I guess the only thing we know for sure is the woman got really sick and the passengers seemed to have very closely similar descriptions to the event.

Note that I went in another direction from you, suggesting this might be some sort of "alien encounter" with much of the actual witness description being some sort of implanted memory or who knows, perhaps a hologram? One reason I mention this is I have been involved in a "possible alien encounter/abduction" where the witness described how a lake they were fishing on was suddenly covered by "thousands of loons (or ducks)". They experienced "lost time" and the next thing they knew, they were on the opposite side of the lake, still in their fishing boat, in some weeds near the shore. I sort of interpret this to be possibly a "projected image" or possibly an "implanted memory".

However, all my theorizing aside, I do agree that with your post which questions the idea that this was an army test of an experimental vehicle.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:18 PM
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I am familiar with this case from several books..but SERIOUSLY:

When you see something like this....with FLAMES shooting out and you can literally feel it burning your skin....you step out of the car, say "it's jesus!" and stare at it for some time from close range?

Uhm...ok...

OP: Nice work, fantastic!
edit on 26-8-2011 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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DP,

Well, given the amount of time you invested in this case in particular, what was driving you? Your initial post made it seem like you thought it was still "secret", yet relatively mundane when compared to experimental aircraft. Would this technology, after all these years, still be classified as such? Now's a good a time as any to share your opinion.



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by Dalbeck
 


The craft does not have a rocket this is cartel info lies.
The light is from vibrated atoms, like quantum theory tells us.
Thus naturally would need an electrical source or outlet.
Perhaps the ship is powered electrically.
The car surface would become hot like any light bulb being
bombarded by vibrated atoms on the surface.
Same for people close by might experience burns.
Cartel owners of these ships hold sway of the government perhaps.
The ship does exhibit the over unity performance Tesla is known
to discover.



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by dpd11
Well... It's a totally lame answer, but I don't think it would be right to say exactly. If I'm right, then it would in fact still be a secret. Nothing that would stop the world from turning, but still a secret that could be damaging to our image. And besides, nobody here is going to agree with me anyway.

Unfortunately I can't find my notes... But I believe this is the spot that the show claimed was the area. I took this from when they showed the sign of a cross street, and also that gas station.

www.bing.com...

However, if you follow what they said in the transcript carefully, it seems to be an area farther north. They said they turned the corner and the light came into view. That would most likely be the large turn on the road to the north, when it goes from east to south and then stays straight. It would be possible that it happened in the wooded area just below the turn. as that is the most isolated area on that part of the road. But this is the spot where I believe it happened...

www.bing.com...

Older images show that spot had only one or two homes nearby in that time frame. And I believe that the core of the story involves helicopters, and only helicopters. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.

That's assuming that all this went down anywhere near the way they claim at all, which I think is probably about 50/50. As I said, there are many odd things about their story that don't make sense.

But there is a fire station south of that point on that road, which I believe existed at that time. I have not been able to find anybody who worked there then. But I would say, that would be your best bet for learning what, if anything, happened. If they don't know, then I think the whole story would have to be questioned. That would have been the best place to try and investigate on the show, but of course they didn't do that.

OP, I think you confused some of the things I said... I never said nothing out of the ordinary happened. I think there's a good chance it did. I just don't think it was a test of some sort of craft or whatever, and here's why...

When you test any sort of craft, or even an engine... you are strictly confined to where it can be done. Any prototype is loaded with sensors and telemetry equipment. That basically makes that prototype priceless. If it is lost, then it's a huge blow to a program. So being in any old area where civies are flying around and all kinds of other stuff, is the last thing you'd want. When a craft is tested, it has to be done on a specific range that is setup for testing. Dozens, if not hundreds of people are involved. The data has to be systematically collected and disseminated in a very repeatable fashion. To do this, you have to have all kinds of Engineers and support people available to deal with the intricacies of that particular craft. The telemetry is collected over the range by monitoring stations in fixed positions and relayed to a mission center. So when all of this is done, it's done in areas that specifically exist for these sorts of tests. Each sortie is very involved and pre-planed for days, and all the data is collected in a very scientific fashion. There is no such facility like that in TX. Contrary to what some people think, you don't just hop in a secret prototype craft and start flying around wherever you want... It just doesn't work like that.

The comment she made about looking for Jesus to come out of it... All I'm saying is that, it sort of shows that maybe they didn't make the worlds best witnesses.


As much as I have to say that this is a very interesting sighting, I have to agree with many of the points you are making here. I just can't imagine any scenario where the US Army would be flying around an experimental craft of this description over civilian areas - especially accompanied by 23 or whatever Chinook helicopters.

Something doesn't make sense about this sighting. I guess the only thing we know for sure is the woman got really sick and the passengers seemed to have very closely similar descriptions to the event.

Note that I went in another direction from you, suggesting this might be some sort of "alien encounter" with much of the actual witness description being some sort of implanted memory or who knows, perhaps a hologram? One reason I mention this is I have been involved in a "possible alien encounter/abduction" where the witness described how a lake they were fishing on was suddenly covered by "thousands of loons (or ducks)". They experienced "lost time" and the next thing they knew, they were on the opposite side of the lake, still in their fishing boat, in some weeds near the shore. I sort of interpret this to be possibly a "projected image" or possibly an "implanted memory".

However, all my theorizing aside, I do agree that with your post which questions the idea that this was an army test of an experimental vehicle.



Thanks...

See... It's possible to have a different opinion or add something, without flying off the handle... ranting and raving and trying to systematically shout down everybody that doesn't buy the original story 100%.

I was interested in the case, because unlike most "UFO' cases, I think there's a very good chance something interesting happened. And that's a mystery. Unlike many people into this stuff, I have no agenda. I'm not using events or stories to try and prove any one thing or another is collectively happening around the world. I just see an individual mystery, and if it seems to have legitimacy... I try and solve it. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a secret ship, or aliens, or weather balloons, or whatever. I just think it's interesting to solve the mystery, WHATEVER it may be.

Also along the same lines... I believe the Minot event, the Edwards, and to some extent the Rendlesham event... are also legitimate enough to look into. Do I think all of them mean one thing, or have one answer, or involve aliens? No... I just think it's a legitimate mystery.

Nobody is ever going to care what my belief is for this particular event. If I put what I think it is exactly, it would just get shouted down by a host of hysterical people, ranting and raving about how much they hate skeptics. If it did happen the way they say... I believe it was a random accident that involved specific helicopters, which were in fact working on something that at the time was secret. But not a test of some sort of ship. There was an accident, and they stumbled upon the accident and were injured in the process. The secret would mainly be kept, because it would be an embarrassment to the government in terms of our standing in the world, and also give away what was at that time, a secret mission.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 02:10 AM
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Originally posted by dpd11

Nobody is ever going to care what my belief is for this particular event. If I put what I think it is exactly, it would just get shouted down by a host of hysterical people, ranting and raving about how much they hate skeptics. If it did happen the way they say... I believe it was a random accident that involved specific helicopters, which were in fact working on something that at the time was secret. But not a test of some sort of ship. There was an accident, and they stumbled upon the accident and were injured in the process. The secret would mainly be kept, because it would be an embarrassment to the government in terms of our standing in the world, and also give away what was at that time, a secret mission.


Just ignore the hysterical people, I for one will respect your opinion/ belief for this particular event, but please tell it! So what secret (/"embarrasment to the government") is it in your opinion? I really would like to know.

Do you maybe think the helicopters were carrying "something" or what was it in your opinion?

As for the exact location of the event of course I can't tell you, therefore I included some maps from google in my initial post. The ladies described they saw the light before a turn on the road. In the first map you can see the road in question taking a turn, that's where I think the event took place.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 04:20 AM
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reply to post by dpd11
 
So after this post, where you dismiss everyone in this thread before highlighting your own excellence, that's all you've got? All these '150' hours and your apparently great (ill-defined) credentials have led you to conclude that 'an accident' occurred? I do admire your attitude!

You could re-read the thread and maybe notice that you were the first person to mention aliens. The only other member to mention aliens was probably drunk when he wrote that post. Throughout the thread everyone has been focused on the incident being something terrestrial and explainable. We've gone through similarities with other cases and vehicles...and ruled them out. That left something military; a clear USAF connection.

So we have something large, giving out heat radiation and flames. It doesn't land or crash, it remains airborne (70' to 80') and is described as being 'water tower' in size (40m). It must have some form of propulsion because it moves away from the scene. The fuel may well be one of the causes for eye and skin damage. It's an unconventional craft.

Whether the road surface was removed, or not, the surface was clearly scorched and I showed you a precedent for removal. Whether Vickie Landrum was a crazy evangelist, or not, they all described the same thing and signed the drawings as evidence. Whether you think Colby was being truthful, or not, he described the same sighting and had damaged eyes too.

Your methods of investigation involve doubting Landrum, doubting Colby, doubting the burnt road and basically leaving out *everything* you can't explain. Here...



Since the people involved left the scene, it leaves everything open to interpretation. I believe, had they stayed at the scene, or nearby... or reported immediately to authorities, there's a very good chance there would be no mystery and the truth would be known today. But the very fact that they didn't do either of those things, is one of the issues that raises questions.


Even the fact they left the scene makes you doubt them? It's 1980! They didn't have cell-phones. They were shocked, burning and injured; staying there would achieve nothing. Object and helicopters were long gone and the burned asphalt wasn't much help. And yet you find this suspicious too. It was reported to the authorities the next day and it still remains a mystery what happened.

So was it an accident as you suggest? Well, I doubt it was a deliberate event. Accident is an obvious explanation. Unless you can suggest what the object was, I'd say we are at the same place we were before the thread. Just to remind you, that place wasn't 'aliens,' it was simply finding the case very interesting and inconclusive.

'Accident.'



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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I don't even know what the h***l you're whining about at this point. LOL Like I said... This is why most people think UFO stuff is a waste of time. You want to believe a story 100% that has huge discrepancies. Awesome. Go for it. I'll keep working on it, like I have been. I might get a chance next time I'm down there to check stuff out in person. Don't worry, I won't bore anybody with any of my silly "ill defined" findings. I know how annoying reality can be to the UFO community. LOL



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by dpd11
 
What 'reality?' You've bitched and criticised members in the thread and added nothing.

What if I told you I work in 'the business' and have spent 150 hours 'down there?' You'd have to take my word for it wouldn't you? At least Vickie 'It's Jesus' Landrum had evidence and witnesses to substantiate her claims. All you've done is criticise and whine that we don't accept you're the only guy in 30 years to explain the case.



Don't worry, I won't bore anybody with any of my silly "ill defined" findings.


Is that a promise? I've starred your post as a thank you.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Kandinsky
You could re-read the thread and maybe notice that you were the first person to mention aliens. The only other member to mention aliens was probably drunk when he wrote that post. Throughout the thread everyone has been focused on the incident being something terrestrial and explainable. We've gone through similarities with other cases and vehicles...and ruled them out.


Wow! Really! How did you come to that conclusion, or is that just a personal attack on someone who had the temerity to bring "aliens" into the discussion?

In case you didn't know, this thread is posted to the sub-forum "Aliens and UFOs" so I really don't see how it is off topic to discuss "aliens" as a possible explanation.

I find the case very interesting but I am very doubtful that this represents any sort of case of US Military testing of exotic craft of any sort. It just doesn't seem feasible to me that tests like this would:
1) take place over civilian areas;
2) involve 23 helicopters in testing of a craft, especially over civilian areas;
3) could be covered up if they lead to fatal sickness by a civilian observer on a public road.

If this doesn't represent a case of "US Military testing gone wrong", then what are the other options?
1) Hoax or lying witnesses
2) Group hallucination?
3) Possible alien encounter
4) Other?

I think that Kandinsky seems to be suggesting that there is only one possibility - which seems like a very prejudicial approach to this (or any) unsolved case.

I do see some parallels between this case and the Falcon Lake UFO Incident:

Falcon Lake UFO Incident

The reason I proposed possible “alien involvement” is because I think it is possible that the 23 helicopters were possibly some sort of hallucination/implanted memory in association with a possible UFO encounter involving aliens. It is just a hypothesis!!!!!

For comparison with another encounter which suggests hallucination/implanted memory see:

Jacko Lake UFO Incident




We're pointing this way to come back, cause he'd just started his turn and I'm looking at him. I'm screaming at him. "Lets just go!" And he's kind of "Uh. Uh." Looking over his shoulder looking at it. And then finally I stood up and was like "Lets go!" and he opened up the motor and he turned around to look straight across the lake to where he's driving, the way he's facing. He slacks off the motor and he's like "Look at the birds! Look at the birds!" and the whole center of the lake is covered in thousands of birds. Ducks, or loons. I don't know. But there must have been thousands of them. We couldn't drive through them. And I said "Just gun it. They'll move. They're birds for Christ sakes." So he guns it. "Poof!" Last thing I remember.

Next thing I remember (he points back to the willows or dogwood shrubs on the nearby bank by the parking area) is when the water's deep it comes half way up this loading (ramp) so all these little trees or whatever they are. They're in the water. The next thing I remember, these branches are in my face and I'm pushing them away and I look around and I said to him. "You're in the trees you know. You're ten feet from shore. Just pull back and go around them." So he backed it up and he gunned it to shore and we jumped out. And we're looking back across now. "What was that? What was going on?" And its like "Who cares? We're here. We're okay. Lets just go over and load our # in the truck and let's go. Right?"



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by bluestreak53
I think that Kandinsky seems to be suggesting that there is only one possibility - which seems like a very prejudicial approach to this (or any) unsolved case.


Actually... This is pretty much how every UFO event goes...

A person says something happened.

The UFO community believes every last word of it, 100%, and doesn't question a single part of it, no matter how little sense it makes... because nobody reporting a UFO could ever possibly be mistaken about anything, ever. So the majority of the UFO community, with their infinite wisdom comprised mainly from TV shows and WikiPedia, proclaims the story to be fact.

Somebody comes along and suggests that maybe something slightly different happened.

UFO people stomp their feet and say: 'No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no'... Then rant about how much they hate skeptics.

The end.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 07:44 PM
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Nice write up, only exception I have is the 160th was around at the time of this incident. They get blamed for a lot they wern't involved with lol.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by dpd11

Originally posted by bluestreak53
I think that Kandinsky seems to be suggesting that there is only one possibility - which seems like a very prejudicial approach to this (or any) unsolved case.


Actually... This is pretty much how every UFO event goes...

A person says something happened.

The UFO community believes every last word of it, 100%, and doesn't question a single part of it, no matter how little sense it makes... because nobody reporting a UFO could ever possibly be mistaken about anything, ever. So the majority of the UFO community, with their infinite wisdom comprised mainly from TV shows and WikiPedia, proclaims the story to be fact.

Somebody comes along and suggests that maybe something slightly different happened.

UFO people stomp their feet and say: 'No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no'... Then rant about how much they hate skeptics.

The end.


Actually, there is lots of debate on most prominent UFO cases by ufologists. It is not just skeptics who question what the facts are versus unsubstantiated claims.

Plus if you look at many UFO incidents, you will find pretty strong indications that the government and military do provide erroneous or contradictory information. And this is one reason it is often hard to find the truth. That is one of the reasons why there is so many doubts about certain historical incidents, even many decades later.

This incident is just one among many which still remains unsolved. I'm sure that even most of those who believe the explanation that this was a "military test gone bad" would agree that this is really more a theory than a fact.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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I just see no reason to doubt the witnesses in this case. There's no denying that something happened to them. Something that inflicted real injuries on all three and most likely lead to the eventual death of Ms. Cash from cancer. I don't think it matters that Vicki thought she was having a religious experience at first. It's not uncommon at all for people who are very religious to interpret extraordinary events as such. The only doubt I might have is the exact number of helicopters involved. I believe it's possible that, in their panic and confusion, they overestimated just how many helicopters there were flying around in the skies. Whether there were ten or twenty helicopters, I don't think that makes the rest of the event any less real.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by dpd11
 
You know what started this? It was your original sweeping generalisation that elevated your opinions above others and then belittled the 'UFO community.' Your reading comprehension has been poor because you've been too busy smirking at 'ufo community' replies and not understanding what they were saying.

Even though you yourself don't have an answer ('it was an accident'), you already *know* that we're all wrong and that the witnesses weren't telling the truth. That's called hearing what you want to hear. Don't call yourself a skeptic, you aren't one. Members in this thread are skeptics because we've considered solutions and compared different sources of evidence. We didn't come with assumptions and we haven't drawn conclusions because the evidence isn't all there.

You realise that you've put your views above the witnesses, the authorities, the researchers and the people in this thread? What does it say about you? What does it say about your critical thinking and skepticism? How does it make you better than everyone else?

Go and write your four word explanation on the Wiki, 'It was an accident.'



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 03:40 AM
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reply to post by bluestreak53
 


and

reply to post by dpd11
 


In my opinion the Cash/ Landrum case can't be compared to the Falcon Lake incident due to the lack of other witnesses. I've read several reports about this incident and the conclusions all in all were that the kind of injuries the man suffered could possibly be "man made"/ self-induced. The craft claimed to be seen by Mr. Michalak was a classic UFO, saucer shaped (I think in fact he claimed to have seen 2 of them/ 1 landing). Don't get me wrong, I really would want to believe in such a story but the skreptic in me won't let me, so yeah I'm a skeptic myself.

The Falcon Lake incident for example I question A LOT unlike member dpd11 assumed like we (a.ka. "the UFO community") aren't even questioning any case (here:the Cash/ Landrum incident). You see we/ I don't take anything someone is telling us/ me as gospel.

The most compelling facts about the C/L case (which are not present in a case like the Falcon Lake case) are several independent witnesses, a more earthly appearing craft and military presence. That alone makes this case so interesting and worth it to take a deeper look into things.

"In case you didn't know, this thread is posted to the sub-forum "Aliens and UFOs" so I really don't see how it is off topic to discuss "aliens" as a possible explanation."

Of course I posted it here, I could have posted it in the "Aircraft Projects" section as well (I even intended to do so), but the fact that the craft yet remains unknown makes it in fact an UFO we have to deal with but that of course doesn't imply it was an E.T. craft which my guts tell me is really not the case here.
edit on 30/8/11 by Dalbeck because: (no reason given)





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