PAK FA - T50 at M

The Russian PAK FA T-50 aircraft flew in public for the first time at the MAKS airshow. A small turn out of people appeared compared to western airshows!

I love this plane - it has such a small cross section, watch it when it turns and the section in front of the tail top to bottom, its like a size ZERO. Cant wait to see more of it, internal stores cant be that big though with such a small X section.

It has heaps of leading edges, supposed to have thrust vectoring but i cant see that here and what do you suppose the strange thing sticking out the back is for?

Go on Russia, love it, shame you have some crap cameramen out there.

Thanks for posting this, this seems like a limited display and I agree with the observation of little to no thrust vectoring. This would be due to not sufficient hours with the TVS, not wanting show the aircraft's full capability yet and not risking a debut display failure or worst, plane loss.

The same has been done with the debut display flights of both the Typhoon and the F-22.

Regards, Skellon.

F-22

If you see as he turns the plane, and moves the back fins, the vectors, right behind the engine move. If you look closely at your video, they are just engines. They have nothing on the back that would support Thrust Vectoring. Its just the Russians trying to show they arent weak, as we all know they are.

Well look at this beautiful beast without thrust vectoring or real stealth, do you think F35 could carry 4 paveway II, external tanks, sidewinders, 4 amraams and do these moves? Stealth is great but you still need weapons.

It is cheating a bit though cos it cant drop those bombs without a litening 2 pod which would be centreline (i think). or it could carry a BVR CALCAM or another 1500l fuel tank.

Also, take each of those Paveway 2 pylons and they can carry 8 hellfire.

So that is a SF guy or Apache or UAV designating 32 tanks when the Typhoon flies over, fires the missles then fights its way out.

Tanks are so 2001...

Its Apples and Oranges folks but let the technology fly and hope we never have to use it in Defence!!

reply to post by DrakeDarc


Not necessarily. The SU-30 MKI (itself a formidable aircraft) has thrust vectoring and it also looks like this. It doesn't have to look like the F-22 to have thrust vectoring.

en.wikipedia.org...

I think people are underestimating how good this will be. Leaving nationalism out of it I think this will worry the F-35 / Eurocard operators in a decade or so.

Originally posted by DrakeDarc
They have nothing on the back that would support Thrust Vectoring.

Are you so certain about that one dear DrakeDarc? I would think not when i see the following video:

SU-T50 Has TVC

Skip to 1:04 and see the nozzle move up and down.

Its just the Russians trying to show they arent weak, as we all know they are.

edit on 18-8-2011 by DrakeDarc because: (no reason given)

Did you write this to troll or are you actualy serious?

reply to post by DrakeDarc


Oops, bit of a fail there. Of course the T-50 has TVC, as have other Sukhois and MiGs before it. The Russians may well have more experience of TVC than anyone else.

Originally posted by waynos
reply to post by DrakeDarc

 

Oops, bit of a fail there. Of course the T-50 has TVC, as have other Sukhois and MiGs before it. The Russians may well have more experience of TVC than anyone else.

To be very honest dear Waynos, the USAF has plenty of expirience with TVC systems aswell and even has the F-22A with TVC in service.

This aircraft has impressed me from day one. Come 2013, when the first serial model rolls out, it will be the most lethal bird in the sky.

For those of you who haven't been following the PAK FA program take notes.
Here's some basics, I'll keep it simple...

1. It has logged less than 100 flights so far.

2. There are two flying prototypes, a third one may be rolled out late August or early September, and a fourth by December or early 2012.

3. Both flying prototypes have fully functioning 3D TVC.

4. There is currently a 5g limit placed on the airframe for testing and safety reasons. (why they don't use TVC for this demo)

5. It has two main IRST sensors, one in front of the canopy, like all previous flankers and one behind the canopy.

6. The main AESA radar that will be on the T-50 has more T/R modules than the one currently deployed on the F-22, which translates to more power if given proper cooling. Multiple AESA 's have been hinted at, including L-band arrays in the leading edges.

7. Official sources recently hinted at very low altitude terrain following capability.

8. T-50 can carry 4 of the new RVV-BD long range air to air missiles internally. Giving the T-50 an unrivaled 250km range while still retaining a stealthy profile.

9. Engines will be changed either on the 2013 serial model, or upgraded shortly after. It will have either 2D or 2.5D TVC.

Here's a speculative CG design based off of patent information for the engines, it is highly likely this will be final layout, or something very similar in shape.

reply to post by James R. Hawkwood


Yes, quite. Ie "may well" rather than "do"

8. T-50 can carry 4 of the new RVV-BD long range air to air missiles internally. Giving the T-50 an unrivaled 250km range while still retaining a stealthy profile.

Is that a true statistic - 250km or 155 miles. The wiki source is rather dubious and it seems a ridiculously large range compared to the latest missile technology developments.

Plus, the missile is designed to shoot down AWACS at 5m cross section, not much good against an F-22.

And really how good are BVRAAM or LRAAM - if you can see something coming (missile isnt stealthy) for 155 miles you could just turn around?

Thoughts - genuine interest not looking for a confrontation.

Plus there is a site with more pictures of the T-50 and it is a nice looking aircraft.

reply to post by MisterBurns


Although I am higly doubtful of the new missile system from the Russians, designing it to hunt AWACS is very smart.

The F-22 (and F-35 for that matter) can only do so much while in 'stealth mode' (passive only). Removing the AWACS, which provide the active scanning (far behind the frontlines), might force the F-22 to go active for full capabilities.

Once it goes fulll active, it is no longer stealth.

That puts the T-50 and F-22 on even ground for the rest of the game (the T-50 having gone active to fully aquire the AWACS).

Don't even get me started on why this will not bode well for the US if the Russian missile is as good as they claim, and they start hunting tankers....unless of course the Russians are the aggressors.

I'm starting to think the Russians might be on to something, just enough stealth to defeat passive scans is really more than adequate if you think about it. As any plane that runs active radar is pretty much a beacon.

The comments are really interesting and some of you guys know ur stuff but,.....

Isn't the real millitairy stuff kept a close guarded secret? I mean a country like Russia or the US would not show their latest to the world on an air show....or would they?

reply to post by MisterBurns


250 seems to be the number circulating among aviation forums. RVV-BD is a lighter weight version of the R-37 missile which was shown in the early 90s IIRC. The range of a missile depends a lot on the trajectory and speed of the aircraft launching it. The R-37 during trials successfully destroyed a target at 300km more than a decade ago, I'm not sure if that record has ever been beaten, so I would assume the more modern RVV-BD can do the same.

We cannot say what size of aircraft this missile can shoot down. The guidance system is unknown, and nobody really knows how much range AESA's have. If the USAF is confident an F-35s AIM 120 can down a PAK FA or J-20, at 100km, who's to say the larger RVV-BD cannot do it at 250 if it can detect the target?

reply to post by zatara


Sukhoi must be highly confident in their machine. No body outside of LockMart, Sukhoi, etc. knows the true capabilities or limitations of their aircraft and weapons, but you can get a good estimate through research. I'm just glad sukhoi has provided us with some very nice close up video and photos of their aircraft, something I wish the Chinese would do with the J-20.

I have been thinking about this today, so we have all these aircraft projects, but yet surely stealth secret missiles would be easier to develop in secret? And yet like you say, the Americans are super confident with their AIM120 which once the F-22 doors open and it gets a 'lock' its Billions of dollars of Stealth Technology are put at more risk.

And then you fire an non stealthy missile which your adversaries aircraft can countermeasure.

What about supersonic stealth missiles?

Just read this on a website:

A Taiwan defense official said Beijing is developing a new air-to-air missile, the PL-21, designed specifically for stealth aircraft. Powered by a ramjet and solid rocket propulsion system, the PL-21 will have a range of 100 kilometers

and then:

A new long-range active radar homing AAM has been under development. Based on some of the PL-12 technology, PL-21 appears similar to British Meteror. It features an active radar seeker and an integrated ramjet/solid rocket motor with a single belly air inlet. PL-21 also features 4 small stabilzing fins behind the active radar seeker, a characteristics of Russian R-27/AA-10. Two-way datalink antennas may be installed in the tail section for mid-course correction. The effective range of PL-21 is expected to be >100km. The missile might be carried by the new J-11B fighter for long-range interception. The latest rumor suggested that the first ground launch test took place in March 2010. The development was projected to be completed by 2012.

Yet it is still somewhat half the claimed performance of the Russian Missile.

reply to post by MisterBurns


Regarding missiles, it's a size game. Fuel and efficiency. Russia is currently the world leader in long range missile technology, although many seem to be able to produce good MRAAMs, that should not even have to be pointed out. Russian SAMs and anti-ship missiles have no rivals.

I can hardly trust any specs coming out of China, do you think Taiwan would be any more reliable? I've never seen a picture of a "PL-21", but I did remember looking it up a while back after someone on another forum said it had 400-800km range . I don't think anyone can claim to know this missiles capability, and still maintain their credibility. It might just be too short of a missile to achieve those ranges, perhaps they wanted an indigenous missile comparable to the Meteor?

Keep in mind, these long range AtA missiles are more like cruise missiles than AA-12s and AIM 120s. Much consideration went into the T-50s weapon bays to accommodate these larger payloads.

My guess to why stealth missiles don't exist; cost, weight, and size. It probably isn't worth it.

From ITAR-TASS

State tests of fifth-generation fighter engine to begin in 2013...

www.itar-tass.com...

They already have 20 of the 5 gen engines built

Were are the naysayers who claimed the T-50 wasn't going to have a 5 gen engine until at least 2018?
It sounds like the first batch of serial T-50s will have the 5 gen engines with 2D/2.5D nozzles.

reply to post by ZIVONIC


If tests are to begin in 2013, as you say, then 2018 is actually entirely reasonable for an in service date. Engine proving is quite a lengthy process. If it happens before then, great. But it would be perfectly normal if it doesn't.

So what makes a 5th Generation Fighter engine, Supersonic Supercruise?

Am I wrong to assume that thrust vectoring is an add on to a 5th Generation engine rather than an integral part of it? Bit like a turbo or upgraded suspension.

If i were to think what makes a 5th Gen engine.....

Improved fuel efficiency, more power less heat, faster throttle response.

Have I missed something.