A lie told often enough becomes the truth!

Originally posted by LTD602

< SNIP >

Anti-masons are NOT serious, and should NOT be taken seriously.

Well written my brother... and the plain fact is they do not want to be confused by facts, which is why the do no more than hit the sites critical of masonry and not bother to read the truth posted on our sites. As a mason, I have read both, our arguments, and their arguments, and I am simply not convinced by anything they have to write because:

A. They have no facts
B. They lie like a cheap rug
C. Their interpretations of the bible are just plain WRONG

I know masons, I am a mason, and I know the truth about Masonry, and I speak the truth about masonry.

My interest in these naysayers is NILL, I only reply to them to provide the folks that are truly curious and interested with the truth... and hopefully show some of these folks the error of their ways. My efforts have brought more men into masonry than I can count, and have turned a few of them around from criticism to active interest to joining, so my efforts aren't fruitless.

Originally posted by theron dunn
My efforts have brought more men into masonry than I can count, and have turned a few of them around from criticism to active interest to joining, so my efforts aren't fruitless.

You can tack on one more sometime in November. ;-)

I think that it is fairly obvious that "Anti-Masons" are
Religious Orthodox/Fundamentalists. They are "Anti" out of FEAR. They can't seem to Trust an Organization that is Open to admitting people from all manners of Religious Practices, Beliefs & Perspectives!

From what I have read of the masonic critic agenda, most of those folks not only don't like organizations, they pretty much only love themselves...

but to be fair, something the critics aren't, they fall into three basic categories:

1) Religious zealots, who have a warped understanding of g-d's message in the bible
2) Ignorant.
3) trolls, along the lines of the KKK and Nazis... who need someone to hate so they can feel superior and better about themselves.

There are also the folks that feel they are entitled to "know" anything about which they have a curiosity, and just don't like secrets being kept from them. I assume on that argument, they would hate any company, any church, the government, all CPAs, all banks, and everyone but themselves, for everyone has secrets that not everyone is entitled too...

Oh, well. Education will cure the second one, prayer will often cure the first, and nothing but growing up will cure the trolls...

Name calling and ad hominem attacks serve no purpose

Here's some snippets of theron dunn's "contribution" to the thread.

page 1

You ACTUALLY believe all that tripe about bilderbergs and such, or are you just posting it to poke with a pointed stick?

my opinion that you seem to be an antisemite.

page 2

I guess worrying about conspiracies keeps some folks out of trouble.

page 4

nothing but conjecture

angst and hand wringing

Been eating a little of that magic mushroom before you posted tonight?

page 6

What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple.

crayon tracks

I really see no significance... but if they keep you busy...


page 7

You know, I don't know about the rest of you here, but don't you find it a tad... pathetic

Pathetic is what I have defined. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, toss it aside and ignore it.

the hatemongers, paranoids and zealots that would defame and slander our fraternity.

you have made up your mind outside of facts

they have eyes but cannot see...

page 8

It must hurt like the very dickens to be made to look the fool like that EVERY SINGLE TIME...

lol

you see, many of us have actually READ the book, and are not simply copying and pasting in someone else's criticism, so we understand the context, where the copy and paster does not...

you are just showing ignorance about what was written.

fallacious nature of the post

biggot that just wants to hate without facts

facts shoved up his nose and made to look the fool.

put away the sharp sticks before they hurt themselves life would be better, but I just deal with the cards as they are dealt...

Sly slander does nothing for your position, by the way, and neither do ad homenim attacks. I have posted the facts, after you conveniently quoted out of context, and I provided my opinion on the material I quoted

thanks for playing

I will be FROM the HONORABLE, FAITHFUL and Ancient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons. Anything else would be... O.F.F.ensive

Also, it is clear from historical evidence that the movers and shakers of the revolution WERE masons, with few exceptions.

More, it is ludicrous to claim the "masonic secrecy" would not prevail... when the evidence is clear that masonry HAS survived and FLOURISHED, despite this secrecy you have your shorts in a twist over...

page 10

don't hold your breath

he is kind of foolish, and admitting it... you have got to love folks like that.

lol

You're writing, but you are not making sense

you are beginning to look foolish here...

Unless you are a paranoid schisophrenic, however, with a tinfoil hat that is slightly askew, and then the commonplace becomes suspicious activity...

These Konspiracy Kooks

this ridiculous obsession

wade through the tripe

how are YOU better than klukkers and nazis?

ad homenim attacks seem to be de rigeur for the masonic critics...

I will be FROM the HONORABLE, FAITHFUL and Ancient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons. Anything else would be... O.F.F.ensive

being my favourite.

You're a riot, theron dunn!


I am from my mother, an independent soul. Not a member of any club, allegiance to none but myself and my family. I wag my own flag, and write my own books. Sorry that that is offensive to you.


PS Good to see you back, Neon. Take it easy, and don't stress too much about the assignments. And good idea about forgetting about Chapter F.. at least we can stay on topic then, and hopefully get back to some positive progress.


[edit on 20/9/04 by stoneskull]

[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I think that it is fairly obvious that "Anti-Masons" are
Religious Orthodox/Fundamentalists. They are "Anti" out of FEAR. They can't seem to Trust an Organization that is Open to admitting people from all manners of Religious Practices, Beliefs & Perspectives!

�fairly obvious�-?

What an odd choice of terminology from blatantly obvious criers of duplicity.

Seraphim- heavenly attendants

Serpente- snake

A servile heavenly snake? To each his/her own I guess.

Fear has no father like the defender of an idea being assaulted.

�Trust an Organization that is Open to admitting - - - � hmm, read what you intend to post before hitting post next time. Masonry is NOT open- to claim so is incorrect and wrong.

What is an �anti-mason?�

(I ask this because some seem to have so much difficulty explaining what a mason is.)

Have I posted anything on this board (ATS) to lead you to believe I am such? If so show me.

Exactly what problem do you see with Orthodox or Fundamentalist religious people? Also, does it matter what �brand� they are?

Help me out here. I can't fathom the depths of your rancor.

any help will be appreciated

[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

Originally posted by esther
My God.

Why do you have to be be so personally abrasive, PublicGadfly?

Ripping on a member's name, completely off topic, what's the point of that?

I mean, surely you have to understand that whatever scholarly credibility you may actually have is absolutely shot by your preferred method of "Baptism by Sulfuric Acid"?

Really. What are you expecting to accomplish here other than attempting to appear superior to everyone (and I mean everyone, not just the Masons)? Your technique leaves much to be desired.

Did I post something offensive?

Show me what so that I might be able to apologize.

"My God"

Not I

I've gone from unintelligent to stupid to brainless to a liar to 'Loki' to whatever else and now I am supposedly arrogant too?

gotta be the water~
As we all know-

I have been mistaken-

[edit on 20/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]

ROFL.

I suppose you got that little red (glaring) warn because you were helpful and gentle. You threw some game at us about "style", and then the admin kindly offered a more precise definition of your "style."

The Masons ARE INDEED open to all and any faiths, and nearly any faith can be reconciled with the notion of a supreme being, the significance of which I explained in numerous posts. Fundamentalist Christians (those who are a bit too worried about their souls) can't handle the Chrstian God meeting "on the level" wuth the Buddha, the Taoist Ascended Masters, etc. Mike Gentry for instance, holds that Christians should not accept people of other faiths, but merely "put up with them" - they're going to hell anyways, according to him. Simply have a look at his site and check out the section about what questions should be asked of Masons.

See, Gadfly, it isn' that you outright use expletives in referring to people . . . .you usually insult and deride in a more circuitous fashion (refer again, to the insults that made you a member of the "warn club.") The result, however, is the same. So, your protestations of innocence tend to fall on deaf ears.

The crux of the matter, Gadfly, is that you cannot deal with societal truisms. You argue from a very hazy philosophical perspective on what is right and wrong. I'll summarize:

1.) You can't deal with elitism in society. Your President is among the eiite, and that office will always have that status. There will always be a social elite who holds more political, social, economic power than you. Powerful people tend to come together and discuss ways to help each other out. Sorry. Deal with it.

2.) You can't deal with secrecy. Privacy laws, however, (Constitutional), protect secrecy. People are not required to include you in their clubs. You assume a priori that secrecy postulates sinister activity. Wrong. It is ONE theory amog many. Conjecture. No one is required to tell you anything.

3.) You can't deal with the concept of Power. You attempt to opt out of the game with self-righteous behaviour. Unfortunatly, you, out of all of us here, want it the most, and cry loudest about not having any.

You're a whistleblower by nature, and that's good. However, you're the kind who feels special glee in bringing down those above you - that's the caveat. You take it too far in social settings, and you end up using it as a polemical weapon. You end up getting hooked on conspiracies. MRENECROS, for instance, is an example of someone who has taken your attitude to its most extreme point. Conspiracies are everywhere, he can't get ahead in any job because of Masonry, which also seems to pervade every part of his life, every waking moment.

You're not a bad sort, Gadfy. You have a loving family, you have grandchildren, and you mean well. You simply hold a different philosophy. That's fine and you're certainly entitled. The problem is, however, in the way you communicate that philosophy to everyone else. Delivery is just as important as the debate.



[edit on 20-9-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

LTD get some control of yourself. Grab esther while you're at it. All this beating on me could lead me to believe you disagree with the masonry stuff I post and I know that you don't because you avoid it.

Let's try and stay on topic- shall we?

Oh, you are on topic- �a lie told often enough becomes the truth�

Good thing you changed your avatar to Houdini- matches your switch.

Yeah I got a red flag- so what. I deserved it.

Let's not discuss me again- puleeeeze!

Let us focus for just a moment on �the lie�

-masonry is for everyone
We all know this is bogus. Masonry is for joiners, for 'yes' men. Nothing wrong with this for those that so choose, but don't turn an apple into a watermelon just because it's bigger.

Elitism?
Poison pure and simple. Plato's Republic and its ilk are tools of elitists. Oligarchies are their heritage. Masonry supports elitism doesn't it?

I think it is one of the high hypocrisies of life- to know a Union man that is a mason. I know a policeman (non-officer) that is the �worshipful master� of a lodge. His Lieutenant is a member! H-E L l o

You think that Sergeant really gives that Lieutenant any �directions� of substance? I don't think so.

Another example of elitism:
The 'average' (if there was such a man) Confederate soldier fought for his rights. He also believed his people were at risk. The Oligarchs (elitists) knew better. Do you really think 'Joe-Bob' would have left his small farm and trudged 500 miles to fight for some rich dude if he knew the truth? I don't think so.

History is full of examples of common folk, the regular guy putting it on the line for Oligarchies. He (common man) doesn't do it knowingly, he does it for reasons that are no more than propaganda but he believes, he believes - - -

Much like the average mason- a decent guy that believes. The average mason is not an elitist, the average mason hopes he can make himself just a little bit better as a person. This is what 'Mike Mason' believes.

He believes the story about fraternity and his wife believes it's O.K. too. She doesn't realize Susan B. Anthony and other women fought, suffered and died to make her equal to men. She can't see that by her husband becoming a mason she has also agreed that she is just a little bit less of a person than he. She sells her equality for pieces of jewelry and a seat at Eastern Star meetings with a bunch of blue-haired women that have nothing going for them at a lodge other than to serve.

Isn't this about it LTD, isn't this masonry?

Forget the smoke, platitudes and philosophy- it is just a man's world after all- am I right?

-we'll deal with �the secret� another time because you don't know what it is, by your own statements.

PS- Keep yourself happy believing that I can't deal with your list of stuff.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Yeah I got a red flag- so what. I deserved it.

Now there is a first... you are CORRECT.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Let's not discuss me again- puleeeeze!

Let us focus for just a moment on �the lie�

The ones you are telling or the ones Stoneskull is telling?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
-masonry is for everyone
We all know this is bogus. Masonry is for joiners, for 'yes' men. Nothing wrong with this for those that so choose, but don't turn an apple into a watermelon just because it's bigger.

No, masonry is just for good men. It has nothing ot do with YES men, but with men who undertand honor and integrity...

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Elitism?
Poison pure and simple. Plato's Republic and its ilk are tools of elitists. Oligarchies are their heritage. Masonry supports elitism doesn't it?

Only if elitism means ONLY accepting the good and honorable men and NOT accepting the dross... uh, the rest.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I think it is one of the high hypocrisies of life- to know a Union man that is a mason. I know a policeman (non-officer) that is the �worshipful master� of a lodge. His Lieutenant is a member! H-E L l o

You point would be... oh, yes, that's right, you don't have one.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
You think that Sergeant really gives that Lieutenant any �directions� of substance? I don't think so.

Well, the only part of that you had right was where you wrote: I don'
think... You have no concept of how masonry works. We meet on the level in lodge, and there are many examples of officers in the military that have enlisted men as worshipful masters of the lodge they are in. The past grand master of California is from my lodge, and last year while he was master, still accorded the master of the lodge all the honor and respect due to the master of his lodge... your illustration is, therefore, false on its face, based as it is on a false perception and understanding of masonry.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Another example of elitism:
The 'average' (if there was such a man) Confederate soldier fought for his rights. He also believed his people were at risk. The Oligarchs (elitists) knew better. Do you really think 'Joe-Bob' would have left his small farm and trudged 500 miles to fight for some rich dude if he knew the truth? I don't think so.

AGAIN, you offer opinion without fact...

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
History is full of examples of common folk, the regular guy putting it on the line for Oligarchies. He (common man) doesn't do it knowingly, he does it for reasons that are no more than propaganda but he believes, he believes - - -

Much like the average mason- a decent guy that believes. The average mason is not an elitist, the average mason hopes he can make himself just a little bit better as a person. This is what 'Mike Mason' believes.

Oh, and you have demonstrated so well what the "average" mason believes... NOT.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
He believes the story about fraternity and his wife believes it's O.K. too. She doesn't realize Susan B. Anthony and other women fought, suffered and died to make her equal to men. She can't see that by her husband becoming a mason she has also agreed that she is just a little bit less of a person than he.

Not at all... Masonry is a fraternity, its for men. Bringing up the issue of women members is a non starter, and since you are not a member, it is not even an issue on which you have a vote. Why do you think women should be members of a fraternity?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
She sells her equality for pieces of jewelry and a seat at Eastern Star meetings with a bunch of blue-haired women that have nothing going for them at a lodge other than to serve.

Hahahahaha, you are too funny. My wife has no interest in masonry, or in Eastern Star. And as for Star, I know most women, and men, that belong to it enjoy it thoroughly... not being a member, you wouldn't have a clue about the joys of associating with good people.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Isn't this about it LTD, isn't this masonry?

Not even close, but nice try.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Forget the smoke, platitudes and philosophy- it is just a man's world after all- am I right?

What makes you think that a fraternity is aobut putting women down? Are you so shallow that you cannot understand male association?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
-we'll deal with �the secret� another time because you don't know what it is, by your own statements.

And, its clear, neither do you... you still seem to think the secret of masonry is about grips, passwords, and signs... and that is NOT what it is about. Those are only means of recognition, to keep cowans and eavesdroppers from stealing the secrets.

theron
you overstetch-

you know it and I know it

1.) Elitism doesn't bother me, I don't particularly care either way. It is a reality, it isn't going to go away. No need to waste energy fighting it. THe framers of YOUR Constitution were all among the "elite." Educated, in positions of power, military or political. Oh yes, THAT elite just happened to serve your interests and all the interests of "Americans." Convenience can be fun.

2.) Women cannot be admitted to a fraternity. Get it? F-R-A-T-E-R-N-I-T-Y . . . .men only.

3.) Masonry is for joiners? So is the Green party, so is the Libertarian party, so is the military, etc. Anything granting you a membership card of sorts is for "joiners", lol. Kow anyone in a union? Joiners, too.

It's always about YOU, Gadfly. You cried about why YOU, PERSONALLY, are being singled out. Wish granted. You got a shopping-list of items.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
theron
you overstetch-

you know it and I know it

Actually, Michael, it is you that overstretches..... the truth, credulity, or any shred of intellectual, moral or spiritual integrity...

But thanks for thinking of me...

Gadfly - the Serpent is the Keeper of WISDOM!!! If you would actually
READ your Bible instead of hitting people over the Head with it you would know this!!! Just face it - you are a FEAR MONGER!!!

Don't look in this direction my little sheep because you just might become EnLightened & we don't want that do we - because then that would be one less Blind Follower to Control!!! It sounds like another familiar story that I am thinking of right now!!!

[edit on 20-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Hello,

I found this site via my ftp stats from my main site www.uneven.us... and your direct link to my www.tgaotu.com... / tgaotu.uneven.us... website setup.

I was shocked, and admittedly slightly concerned, when I found several individuals on this thread discussing my personal information and (laughably) possible "backdoors" and such for my website.

Instead of any one of you taking it upon yourselves to *gasp* email me and ASK ME WHAT I WAS DOING, I found you all to be explicit examples of why no one takes me, or any other true disciple, seriously. You chatter, you hypothesize to the point of, if I may be frank, complete lunacy, and none of you display and ounce of common sense to simply ask a question.

Interestingly enough, I have not found so much as a single shred of evidence on this thread concerning anything at all relevant to any issue whatsoever. I see some jumbled, dislocated segments of regurgitated old information. I see some individuals desperately clawing into an abyss they wouldn't understand if it were spelled out to them in a "For Dummies" series and I see hysterical distortions passed as interpretations of historical societies and their ilk.

What would the posting of a well-known and highly publicized series of images of the Washington DC layout (and geometry associated with it) help any of you understand? What could it possibly do for you at this moment? What great riddle could the definition of a freemasons attire solve for you at present?

The answer is obvious, and I hate to bother typing it out but : There is NOTHING that information is going to do for you. It is hardly more important than inspecting the ink of a book without reading the words in it. You're wasting your time with the frivilous while the true matters that should be studied are left on shelves collecting dust.

Continue focusing on the ink , go right ahead. Leave it to the few of us that have a shred of instinctive intellect to take the ridicule because of your actions, we don't mind. Accuse me of being a skinhead, that is quite alright. If you knew the truth of the matter at hand in our world, you'd assuredly have agreed with my posts on that Usenet group, and I doubt very seriously that any of you on this site are Nazis.

I'm sure if you've managed to read this far without closing this thread in a guilt-drenched panic attack, you may understand that I am slightly biased towards those that cower before locked doors for fear of what lies beyond.

Learn to pick the lock or blow it off of the #ing hinges.

Until next time,

Uneven o/v/e/r/a/n/d/o/u/t

Email me anytime at [email protected] , or if you insist on adelphia, [email protected]

I have read your post three times, and it still does not seem to have anything to do with THIS thread. Are you sure you followed the bread crumbs back to the right thread?

Also in reading the material at your site, esp. Abydos, I found a distinct lack of critical research going on. A simple google search using Abydos and Helicopter revealed a veritable plethora of websites dealing with the palimpsest issue or recarving and filling in that seemed rampant all over Egypt.

Yet the material is presented with a total lack of critical examination, as if it were, on its face, accepted as fact...

Is this the "critical examination" that you bring to the disucssion of masonic and other issues?

Just curious...

[edit on 11/7/04 by theron dunn]

"I have read your post three times, and it still does not seem to have anything to do with THIS thread. Are you sure you followed the bread crumbs back to the right thread? "


If you read this thread in its entirety, you'd find what I'm addressing lies in the page 6-8 range regarding my personal information, and my general point of this group largely being "off the mark" applies liberally to the majority of posts before and after the ones discussing my site.