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A lie told often enough becomes the truth!

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posted on Sep, 15 2004 @ 08:33 PM
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Ahoy!
Just a couple of quick questions. Why call it the "craft"? The "Witchcraft"? Once and for all 3, 29, 32, or 33 masonic degrees? Albert Pike was popping off about 33 degrees or something(actually documented). Theron or LTD mentioned 29 additional ones. I am getting frustrated because you can't make up your mind. I mean you flip flop every other hour. What about the Declaration of Independence, can you back up your statements as far as who wrote or signed it? Where can I find it? Anyway, I will also agree that there very well may have been a few or at most a handfull of masons in the revolution. IMHO we enjoy our basic freedoms as a team effort because we were all being oppressed(and we kicked butt, not without cost however), maybe some more than others. Why use a Holy Bible to swear an oath in lodge rites? If this is no religion, why? Any brother mason may or may not be a Christian. To a Muslim, Hindi, Jew, Budist, or any other faith you can name, the sworn oath would hold no meaning. And swearing it would be an exorcise in futility, dontcha think?Anyway nothing ulterior here, just a bunch of why questions. Have a great night, I am!
troylawson




posted on Sep, 15 2004 @ 08:44 PM
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Hi Troy:

There are 33 degrees, if you're going through the Scottish Rite.

Explanation:

There are 3 Masonic degrees, as part of the Blue Lodge. There is none higher than the 3rd degree, called Master Mason. Once you're a Master Mason, you can stay where you are for life.

BUT . . . . if you want to take your learning even further, you can obtain APPENDANT degrees. They are, officially, no better in status than the Master Mason degree, and they are viewed as "side degrees", that just happen to go up in levels.

To continue his learning, a Master Mason can enter the Scottish Rite, or York RIte. Think of these as schools, each offering a slightly different path. York right, for instance, emphasizes Christian values to a greater degree.

For the sake of simplicity, let's look at Scottish Rite:

A Master Mason in the Scottish Rite can get from the 4th degree up to the 32nd on his own. None are considered better than the others, but it is claimed that lower degree people don't know what higher degree people know. Go figure. The 33rd degree is bestowed upon a Mason - recognititon of his contribution to Masonry, years as a Mason, etc. It's an honourary title, in a way. A Scottish Rite Mason can also do York Rite Masonry.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

Cheers.



posted on Sep, 15 2004 @ 11:50 PM
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Quote: "Why use a Holy Bible to swear an oath in lodge rites"?

I believe the actual wordage is "Tome of Law" - It can be the Hebrew Bible or The Christian Bible or the Rig-Veda or any "Holy Book" of Any "Religion" - Logically one belonging to the Religion the person who is getting Initiated Practices. They don't discriminate between the Religions - as long as you actually believe in some form of "Higher Power" & are not an Atheist.



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "Why use a Holy Bible to swear an oath in lodge rites"?

I believe the actual wordage is "Tome of Law" - It can be the Hebrew Bible or The Christian Bible or the Rig-Veda or any "Holy Book" of Any "Religion" - Logically one belonging to the Religion the person who is getting Initiated Practices. They don't discriminate between the Religions - as long as you actually believe in some form of "Higher Power" & are not an Atheist.


Close, its actually referred to as a Volume of Sacred Law, and whatever book that the candidate considers sacred is the one that is used for him to take him obligation on. I have sat in lodge with the Torah, the King James, and the Koran (at different times, of course) open... I have never seen the Bahgvaghida used, but if a candidate wants to use that, we would.

What some folks can't seem to get is that masonry is not a religion, and that the bible is a SYMBOL in lodge, much like the square, level, plumb or compass, it is a symbol for the presence of the Supreme being, which I believe all religions consider present when invoked.



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 03:19 AM
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Quote: "Volume of Sacred Law"

Thanks Brother Dunn - I was just winging it off the top of my Head & thats what came out! Of-Course
"Volume of Sacred Law" is the proper phrase!


[edit on 16-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 05:23 AM
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Theron:

Do you mean that an initiate is asked what volume of sacred law he would like to swear on?

Interesting. I'm sure Albert Pike's M&D doesn't count, right?



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by theron dunn

What some folks can't seem to get is that masonry is not a religion, and that the bible is a SYMBOL in lodge, much like the square, level, plumb or compass, it is a symbol for the presence of the Supreme being, which I believe all religions consider present when invoked.


It's the sumbol thing again.

A symbol without meaning is what?

Someone could use a Superman comic book couldn't they?

-or-
a Satanic bible?



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 07:18 AM
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Well, Superman WAS, after all, a Supreme Being. What with his super strength, ability to leap over tall Masonic Lodges in a single bound, and of course the whole flying thing.

Given his service to all mankind, charity, benevolence, and is courage, it can even be argued that he is the reincanration of one of the Buddhas.

Superman. Buddha of Steel.



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by LTD602
Theron:

Do you mean that an initiate is asked what volume of sacred law he would like to swear on?

Interesting. I'm sure Albert Pike's M&D doesn't count, right?


The candidate is not asked, per se, what VSL he wants. He is told that he has a choice...

There is a "list" of approved VSLs which includes the holy writings of darn near every religion extent... Wr. Br. Albert Pike's M&D is not on the list to the best of my knowledge, though if a candidate asked for one not on the list, approval for its use would be forthcoming.

I took my oath as a master mason on the volume my grandfather and my father and my uncle used...



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 04:37 PM
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What does 'G' stand for? George?



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 04:51 PM
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God, GAOTU, Geometry . . . . . it depends on the Lodge, or so I hear.



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by troylawson
What does 'G' stand for? George?


It stands for God and Geometry...



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 05:41 PM
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What does IAOM stand for? Does it stand for anything? Or is it just a word?

Is it IAOM or IAO? Is IAO another pronunciation for YHWH?

What is the "flower of life"? Is it a rose? Or is the rose just a symbol for it. What's the connection between roses and crosses?


[edit on 16/9/04 by stoneskull]



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by stoneskull
What does IAOM stand for?

Does it stand for anything?

Or is it just a word?


International Association of Orofacial Myology www.iaom.com...
International Academy of Orthopedic Medicine www.iaomed.com...
International Association of Operative Millers www.aomillers.org...


IAOM is what the Mason's believe to be God's name


I guess some masons think it is the name of god... perhaps in the "higher" degrees of Scottish or York Rite...



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 07:43 PM
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I thought that the "G" stood for "GNOSIS"!!!

Quote: "A symbol *without meaning* (as percieved according to Yourself & you are not the only person on the Planet) is what? -or-

a "Satanic" Bible?"

Here we go again - wow the Boogieman must really be Scary huh - go back to Hiding in your Spider Hole!


[edit on 16-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I thought that the "G" stood for "GNOSIS"!!!

Quote: "A symbol *without meaning* (as percieved according to Yourself & you are the the only person on the Planet) is what? -or-

a "Satanic" Bible?"

Here we go again - wow the Boogieman must really be Scary huh - go back to Hiding in your Spider Hole!


Enlighten us- impart some of the wisdom you have hidden all too well.

Does being the mention of Satan in the context it (he/it/she) was used cause memories of childhood monsters crawling up from under the bed or storming form the closets?

Is a spider arcane or otherwise something despicable?




posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 08:20 PM
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Quote: "Does being the mention of Satan in the context it (he/it/she) was used cause memories of childhood monsters crawling up from under the bed or storming form the closets?"

NOPE - because I am not a DOGMATIST - like you my friend. I do not read the "Bible" LITERALLY - seeing as it is a 2000-4000 Year Old Book that is full of "Allegories & Symbols". Imagine that!




posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by troylawson
Ahoy!
Just a couple of quick questions. Why call it the "craft"? The "Witchcraft"?


It is called "the Craft" because the fraternity was originally instituted as a guild for the craft of stonemasonry.
As for "witchcraft", this has a similar origin; among aboriginal peoples, the medicine man or shaman is considered to have a monopoly over his own craft : in this case, the craft of "sorcery", i.e., the preparation of both medicines and poisons from organic substances.



Once and for all 3, 29, 32, or 33 masonic degrees? Albert Pike was popping off about 33 degrees or something(actually documented).


Pike was speaking of the Scottish Rite of Masonry, which consists of 33 degrees. To differentiate, the York Rite consists of 10 degrees with an additional 3 Orders of Chivalry, and a large collection of side degrees, honorary degrees, and appendant degrees. There are also other Rites (Masonic systems) that confer their own degrees. Therefore, the number of degrees depends upon which Rite of Masonry one is referring to.
This is a difficult concept for non-Masons who have assumed that Masonry is one organization...in reality, it is a collection of many different organizations who co-exist through mutual recognition. I suppose billiards would be a good analogy. We may decide to play 9 ball, or may instead play a round of 8 ball. One game uses 9 balls for play, the other 15; but regardless of which one we play, we will be playing billiards. Masonry is much the same.



What about the Declaration of Independence, can you back up your statements as far as who wrote or signed it? Where can I find it?


Masonic signers of the Declaration of Independence:

www.pagrandlodge.org...


Why use a Holy Bible to swear an oath in lodge rites? If this is no religion, why? Any brother mason may or may not be a Christian. To a Muslim, Hindi, Jew, Budist, or any other faith you can name, the sworn oath would hold no meaning. And swearing it would be an exorcise in futility, dontcha think?


Not necessarily. For example, in courts of law in the United States, all witnesses are sworn in on the Bible, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof. The Constitution of my Grand Lodge reads that the Obligation is not a religious ceremony, and therefore, the Candidate is required to undergo the traditional form, i.e., using the King James Version of the Holy Bible. In Morals and Dogma, Pike states that each Candidate should be obligated on the Scriptures of his own religion, and some Grand Jurisdictions do this also.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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Also, the oath is to the BROTHERS, not TO g-d. God is asked in the obligation:

"... so help me god and keep me steadfast in the due observance of this, my solemn obligation..."

So, the candidate is asking god to aid him in keeping his word. Nothing more, nothing less.


df1

posted on Sep, 16 2004 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by troylawson
Just a couple of quick questions.

I question the sincerity of your questions. If you were sincere in your desire to learn about Masonry, the answers are easy to find using any of a variety of internet search engines, including the ATS search engine. These same questions have been asked and answered over and over.


Albert Pike was popping off about 33 degrees or something(actually documented).

Pike is the author of Morals and Dogma a 900+ book describing each of the 33 degrees in great detail. Pike is hardly popping off. What you are doing is popping off repeatedly with uninformed remarks.


What about the Declaration of Independence, can you back up your statements as far as who wrote or signed it? Where can I find it? Anyway, I will also agree that there very well may have been a few or at most a handfull of masons in the revolution.

Your agreement or disagreement is not relevant, it does not change the facts. Believe whatever in the hell you like, it is no skin off my nose.
.



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