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A lie told often enough becomes the truth!

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posted on Sep, 17 2004 @ 12:06 PM
Apparently going back to Ancient Egyptians, the design known as the "Flower of Life" is supposed to have very significant meanings. Is it the Sun? The corona/crown of the thorns? Is it the Earth? Is it a mushroom? A real flower? Is it a penis? A vagina? Both? All of the above?

My exploration of the design of the "Flower of Life" and Sacred Geometry has crossed some very interesting paths, let me tell you, and I feel I've just discovered the tip of the iceberg.

[edit on 17/9/04 by stoneskull]

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 03:32 AM
Here are the links and quotes that I found concerning the Flower of Life:

Indelibly etched on the walls of temple of the Osirion at Abydos, Egypt, the Flower of Life contains a vast Akashic system of information, including templates for the five Platonic Solids. The background graphic for this page is a repetitive hexagonal grid based on the Flower of Life. Link

Much has been made of the geometric construction called the Flower of Life (also known as Metatron's Cube). On at least one pillar in the Osireion, carved in a manner that is not yet explainable, are a number of these flowers of life.Link

Metatron's Cube is a tremendously important aspect of Nature's First Pattern. It is based on 13 circles found within this first pattern. Connecting the centers of these 13 circles is the key. This sacred geometric archetype proves the direct relationship between the conceptual Two Dimensional Universe and the manifest Three Dimensional Universe. The root architecture of all the Platonic Solids (the Tetrahedron, the Cube, the Octahedron, the Icosahedron and the Dodecahedron) lie hidden within Metatron's Cube. All these perfect three dimetional forms fit perfectly within a Sphere which (of course) relates directly to the Circle (see image below).

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Masonic Light
For example, in courts of law in the United States, all witnesses are sworn in on the Bible, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof.

They really still do that? What happens if a witness were to refuse to swear on the Bible? I think that this is quite ridiculous. I would have thought that it was a practice of the past, as I haven't been to a trial before. Need to watch more Judge Judy...

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 05:22 AM
JonestownRed - If someone chooses not to swear on a bible they have to make a solemn affirmation. What's important is that the person understands the gravity and importance of being "under oath" in law, that they are to tell the truth.

Strianissa - I love you!

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 05:12 PM

Originally posted by df1
There is no denying your ignorance.

Yes I don't deny my ignorance. Ignorance placed before me and knowledge kept from me by the Masons. I do seek knowledge(I won't say truth(truth can't come from man(man being fallable)). The Masons seek secrecy.

Originally posted by troylawson
Just a couple of quick questions.

Originally posted by df1
I question the sincerity of your questions. If you were sincere in your desire to learn about Masonry, the answers are easy to find using any of a variety of internet search engines, including the ATS search engine. These same questions have been asked and answered over and over.

Question all you(df1) want. I would rather it came from the source than going on a wild goose chase. In your(Masons in general) secrecy you(Masons in general) deprive me of knowledge and avoid answering my questions. But as you(df1) will.

Originally posted by troylawson
Albert Pike was popping off about 33 degrees or something(actually documented).

Originally posted by df1
Pike is the author of Morals and Dogma a 900+ book describing each of the 33 degrees in great detail. Pike is hardly popping off. What you are doing is popping off repeatedly with uninformed remarks.

I understood that part(Morals and Dogma), I was confused as to the actual number of degrees you(Masons in general) agree to. 'Popping off' was a poor choice of words yet I am uninformed because you(Masons in general) make it so.

Originally posted by troylawson
What about the Declaration of Independence, can you back up your statements as far as who wrote or signed it? Where can I find it? Anyway, I will also agree that there very well may have been a few or at most a handfull of masons in the revolution.

Originally posted by df1
Your agreement or disagreement is not relevant, it does not change the facts. Believe whatever in the hell you like, it is no skin off my nose.

Ok but just what are the facts? Can I assume that you(df1) don't take everything on face value? I mean if I 'said' the sun was not comming up tomorrow, you(df1) just wouldn't take that on face value even if I were a Mason, yes? You(df1 and any intellegent person) would need emperical evidence which can be quantified; say gravitational field readings, positioning of various stars in relation to Sol, earth, moon, and the like. Not exactly the like situation with Masonry, but statements are not backed up by any evidence. And all because of the claim of secrecy. I understand the need for secrecy, case in point the Government's levels of secrecy(I could point out reasons but these are well known). I don't understand when there is no need for secrecy. But secrecy gives the illusion of something sinister to hide and deceit. I now realize(probably to the Masons' delight) that I will never know the secrets of Masonry as the secrets of the government(Roswell and the Kennedy assassination for example). I am comfortable with that, and respect that also. But that doesn't keep me from asking the questions on occasion(the worst that can happen is no one answers the questions). Thanks to all the Masons on the board, if I am a pest sorry.

Thanks to NH and StoneSkull, they made the topic entertaining.


[edit on 18-9-2004 by troylawson]


posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 06:16 PM

Originally posted by troylawson
Ignorance placed before me and knowledge kept from me by the Masons...

In your(Masons in general) secrecy you(Masons in general) deprive me of knowledge...

I am uninformed because you(Masons in general) make it so...

I posted an article on ATS on 08/11/2004 (click here) concerning Masonry and the founding of the US, but you claim this knowledge is kept from you. If you had put any of your own effort into your quest of knowledge about Masonry I would not be PO'd in the least by your questions. However you expend no effort at all to find answers. Your ignorance is self inflicted, but you harp over and over that Masonry is to blame for ignorance.

Troy, your claims are pure hogwash.


posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 06:24 PM
I understand your frustration, Troy, but secret societies aresecret societies. You can't always assume a priori that they are sinister because they have secrets. It may SEEM like it, but that does not constitute proof, as you know.

Simply accept that there are certain things that the Masons cannot tell you. That's it. If this mystery fascinates you and intrigues you to such a degree, then why not simply go to a Lodge meeting or a Masonic opne house? I know I've mention this a thousand times, but has anyone who has complained about Masonic serecy on these boards ever gone to meting, or met one in person, or actually JOINED? Why not join? What are people so afraid of? LOL, they won't cut off your balls or make you sacrifice virgins. Just call a Lodge and ask to attend an open house, who knows . . . . you might like it. I certainly grew to like it - in fact it aqppealed to me immediately. You can also leave whenever you wish.

It's up to you, Troy, but if people complain and cry about secrey and the like (secrecy being a REALITY you cannot fight), without actually finding out where it comes from or why it is there, then they really have no right to complain. Perhaps you see secrecy as something unjust or immoral. I certainly do not. I have secrets, families have secrets, business partners have secrets, the MILITARY has secrets, etc. Masonic secrecy isn't even hurting you. Secrecy iis a reality. Privacy is a reality. It is protected by your Constitution. That's life.

You're a good guy, Troy, no question, but I think you'll get all you're going to get out of the Masons as far as fishing for secrets is concerned.

All I can really say is, go see for yourself.

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 10:16 PM
Right back at ya, stoneskull.

posted on Sep, 18 2004 @ 10:38 PM
[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 12:09 AM
I've always been told "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one!"

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 12:31 AM

Originally posted by TheWindowGuy
I've always been told "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one!"

very "nice"... I see your opinion stinks too...

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 02:43 AM
I am sorry for my absence of late, i have some assigments i have to complete before i have time to post in here.
I have written a small work (still in progress) about the masons and after that, i post no more of their cult, perhaps i will even remove them from the topic list, they are purposly spreading vile thoughts and harrasing the people on this board under the protecttion of the moderators, i have apologized to the masons some 5 times for my bad behavior in here but not ONE og them have apoligized for calling me stuff like, ignorant, imbisil, troll or flamer just to name a few.

Also Thank You StoneSkull for helping me in this thread i couldnt have done it with out you and you deserve atleast half of the credit for this thread, so again thank you mate.

Now this was written in a hurry so i am sorry for my butterfingers and ignorance in you fine old english language.


Ps: with all the double think these masons spew its hard not to see what is going on.

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 05:30 AM

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
i have apologized to the masons some 5 times for my bad behavior in here but not ONE og them have apoligized for calling me stuff like, ignorant, imbisil, troll or flamer just to name a few.

Hey, read through your posts.
Why should anyone apologise for telling the truth about you?

By the way. It's "imbecile".

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 01:26 PM
[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 01:40 PM
Well, Esther, as usual, you ask a good question.

If someone came and said your mother or brother were a worthless... whatever, and you showed that their assertions were incorrect, would that be a worthwhile endeavor?

Would some on the sidelines say: Sheesh, who the heck cares? Certainly, but is it no less important for that?

What masons face, as you can see, is a "group" of folks posting lies about us. Not necessarily knowing lies, but lies uttered by someone and they have simply read it and reposted it, believing the source... if we do not refute the attacks, we allow the lies to stand unrefuted, as if they were the truth.

In fact, until recently, one of the arguments used by the masonic critics was that we do not reply to their assertions being ipso facto proof that the assertions were correct. What you seem to be writing is that no matter what we do, ignore them or refute them, we are going to be wrong in your eyes.

Have you a better solution?

Some of these folks are just ignorant, and facts shut them up. Some are crazed, like Gadfly and Necros, making wild and crazy assertions without a shred of evidence, based on their own "testimony". We can't ignore these folks, else their baseless assertions will stand as if they had a basis in reality. And some have religious objections, based on misinterpretations of the bible, and that is fine with me, I really don't care about some zealots mis-interpertation of a book written by men two thousand years ago to codify their understanding of g-d's message to man.

I understand what you mean... reading the back and forth to a disnterested party would be kind of boring. But this forum is designed to DENY IGNORANCE, and that is what we are trying to do. I guess if you want to read a forum for masonic hate, ignorance and lies, you could go read Freemasonrywatch, and if you want to read the truth about masons there are hundreds of sites chock full of information...

What would you have us do, therefore, on a forum established to deny ignorance, when such appalling ignorance and hatred is posted?

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 01:52 PM
Look who's back . . . . and worse than before.


I first visited this site back in earl August or so - just check my join date. You were the only individual at that time ( as fas as I can remember), who, when responding to posts by Masons, would write: "more noise from Masons" . . . . "more disinformation" . . . ."more noise", and such.

What do you expect in return???? Do you have any concept whatsoever of at least being halfway polite, even when you happen to disagree with something??? In your absence, haev you even bothere to MEET MASONS IN PERSON? Have you attended any open houses?? Have you done any research beyond the crap you find around the internet??

I bet dollars to donuts you did neither. Your apologies were about as genuine as a 2-dollar bill, as well.

You're a good guy in general, Neon, but you're way too aggressive and hot-headed, and you complain like a little kid when Masons don;t share information. They ARE a secret scoiety, they DID make promises, and they are not bound to reveal anything to anyone, least of all someone who comes off as a 10-year old.

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 02:37 PM
[edit on 10/3/2004 by esther]

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 04:29 PM
I can see were you are coming from, as joining is out of the question (even though you might not want to join even if you could, seeing how you are neutral) and that there is a lot of personal bias coming from both sides of the fence. Some Freemasons here on this board have made it harder for neutral people like yourself to understand and sift through the "mud" (bantering back and forth) to find pearls of wisdom (or even one pearl for that matter). Here is a good start to understanding some of the questions that shroud Freemasonry, Landmarks, these Landmarks, were compiled by Albert G. Mackey in 1858.

As for the anti-mason tripe that has been shoveled out on this site and many others at the bottom of that page there is a anti-mason link, going to that page will soon open your eyes to a full view of facts that can not be disputed (although Godfly will try and fail).
I really wish that all of the Freemasons and Anti-masons would just see that this is going nowhere on this board and that this kind of bantering has gone on for years, maybe there should be a sticky thread at the top of the Secret Societies section that states all of the known facts about Freemasonry (like the history 1717, Pike and the KKK, reptilian overlords, the history of Lucifer/the morning star and what ever else would help DENY IGNORANCE and stop the redundant questions/insinuations and answers/rebuttals) as well as the most frequently asked questions and answers (like rituals, secrets, G-d, religion, and women and Freemasonry). This is just a thought that might help clear up some space on the servers and also maybe help those in the future that feel that they need to post things that have been covered. I for one would be willing to help put together a Freemasonry Facts thread and I am sure that most Freemasons on here would love to help as well, seeing how it takes a considerable amount of time and energy to reply to every lie and/or misinformation that has been posted. So this is just a thought but it might be an idea that is worthy of some thought and time, seeing how muddy the threads get and how the same things keep being brought up.

PS there should also be an anti-mason sticky for all of those people that want to see the other side of the story. Like myself, I like to read Anti-mason stuff, besides having a good laugh (like about reptilian overlords
) it does help one make an informed decision and also helps me DENY IGNORANCE.

Just my thoughts...

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 04:49 PM

Originally posted by amike555

< SNIP >

As for the anti-mason tripe that has been shoveled out on this site and many others at the bottom of that page there is a anti-mason link, going to that page will soon open your eyes to a full view of facts that can not be disputed (although Godfly will try and fail).

I really wish that all of the Freemasons and Anti-masons would just see that this is going nowhere on this board and that this kind of bantering has gone on for years...

< SNIP >

Just my thoughts...

And good one's they are... the problem as I see it is that most Masons here are not trying to CONVERT anyone. What we are trying to do, in my opinion and speaking for myself only, is to provide the truth about masonic issues for someone like Esther who would like to know, and obviously reads these threads to know, the truth, as opposed to allowing the lies and deceits and ignorance of those that are critical of masonry to stand.

My position is that these folks either sincerely believe what they post, or they are trolls. Those that believe out of ignorance can be educated, and those that sincerely believe out of a misinterpretation of religious issues, well, they are entitled to their beliefs... that is quintessentially the masonic position.

I want the casual reader, the curious reader, the reader that does not care but sees the post to know that the truth is available, and it is most emphatically not what the masonic critic is posting...

there are some masonic critics that are honest, and are willing to discuss their objections in a rational manner, using facts, scripture and other sources as their bedrock. These are educated men and women, who, for whatever reason, have interpeted these writings to call for, mostly, Christians to leave the lodge. However, Christians are 95% of the lodges, and these men all know better, so their calls fall on ears that knolw better... so they are wasting their time.

Esther, I did not mean to even slap your wrist. I admire what you wrote and continue to write. I am not looking for cheerleaders, none of us are, and your honest neutral position is refreshing, to say the least. I meant my question sincerely, what do you suggest?

The masonic critics and trolls are, for the most part, DetectivePerez notwithstanding, not interested in the facts. They have made up their minds, and don't confuse them with facts, or, they are confused about reality and can't make their way home (gadfly and necros, and to a certain extent, neonhelmet). So how else can we approach this issue?

They post outrageous statements, we reply with facts. They misquote our own writings, we provide context and refute their position... they post lies about us, and we refute those with facts, or demand facts in support of their untenable position(s)... and round and round the mulberry bush we go...

In a sense, this is like the debate on abortion. Neither side is willing to grant the other side a micrometer. To one side, it is murder, to the other, it is a choice and not murder... and round and round we go.

How to find a common ground when your critic starts with you are a satan worshipping child molesting yadda yadda yadda? Name calling and ad hominem attacks serve no purpose, but that seems to be their forte and modus operandi since the facts don't support them.

I am sincerely interested in your opinion, since we won't give an inch on their claims, and when they have been right, for instance about the P2 lodge, and we counter with the fact that we pulled its charter as soon as it became known to us what was happening, they throw THAT in our face, as if dealing with a problem were not enough. I mean, how do you deal with these folks other than simply repeating over and over and over and over the facts?

I am an admin on two forums, a moderator on another, and I also post here, and I have to tell you, that for each critic we beat back with the facts (and you have seen it here... when we provide facts, they eventually just fade away), another comes on... they are like the Hydra and we Hercules with the sword of truth...

I did not mean it as a slap, but an honest: tell me your thoughts...


posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 08:31 PM
There will never be common ground among Masons and Antt-Masons, and to be honest, I really don't see the need. The anti-Masons are a relatively small bunch who, while messing up completely the spirit of respectful debate, eventually find themselves in a very ignoble position: they have been refuted by Masons and the rest of the non-Mason community no longer pays them heed.

That's it, basically. People who have deep seated preconceptions and who do not approach debate in a spirit of inquiry, but rather, in a spirit of hostility and aggression, will never be convinced by words. They are not here to learn, but to prove their own pseudo-resourcefulness, perhaps in an effort to be admierd because they, in some miraculous way, have discovered the Great Secrets of Feemasonry - whereas EVERYONE ELSE has failed. Meanwhile, many of these individuals haven't even te slightest idea of what constitutes research, how to marshall evidence to form an argument, and what the difference is between proof and conjecture. Some of these people even went to college, apparently, but it seems none of them have ever written a proper essay for some reason. It's shocking.

What saddens me the most, however, is that the critics, the David Icke lovers, the anti-Masons and other similar intellectual flunkees, have not even bothered to

a., speak to Masons in person or attend an open-house at a local Lodge. Google actually proves useful here.


b., Join the Masons.

They have such hard-ons for the "truth" and they become so passionate about the drivel they write that they even resort to personal attacks and childish behaviour. They want all the secrets . . . or else. Yet, when it comes to taking advantage of excellent opportunities to discover this "truth" they speak of, they continue to sit in front of the computer and contribute to the Google hit-counter.

What reason do they give for not bothering to find out for themselves?

a., "I don't need a secret society to have friends, I can find them on my own."

b., "i don't know what I'm getting into, I hardly know anything about them."

Such banal, sad, pathetic, pussy-talk. Lots of fear and ignorance in those phrases.

Anti-masons are NOT serious, and should NOT be taken seriously.

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