'White chavs have become black': David Starkey TV outburst provokes race row as he claims Enoch Po

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I expect our lowest common denominator to arrive and get the thread shut down at some point. I would be elated to be surprised and find different.

Regardless, this all boils down to a poor choice of metaphor in a hypercharged politically correct society. Kandinsky gave the perfect argument for how this is racism, even sublime racism. However, it does nothing to overcome the notion that this gentleman was using a metaphor that is relevant to the culture that was his audience.

In America, when you say "gang", you think most often of male youths, most likely black or hispanic (at least, in my town). "Mafia" conjures up the Italians. "Mafioso" is the Mexican Cartels (at least, around here).

I am unclear on English gang culture, but suspect that it is very similar to the US (for the reasons Kandinsky described). Thus, it would seem that this guy was just commenting on the fact that, in England, it seems that there is an increase of white youths "ganging up" (again, i do not know if this is true).

Was he denigrating black people? Or was he simply observing that gang have, historically (in his culture) been a mostly black phenomenon?

It isn't the words that matter. It is the intent. That is the great folly of political correctness, which is always looking at a dirty, underhanded intellectual jab through the manipulation of word vs. intent.

It is exactly US gang culture that, along with maccy d's and coke cola that has been imported and assimilated.

It is nothing to do with race, I see people from all ethnicities emulating gang culture.

To me its a huge rut that is hard to escape from and harder still to change.

In the end, if something is rotting society then it should be cut out.

That is where we have the problem.

Only by education, discapline and time can this be sorted out.


Also change must happen at the top too, our leaders are just gangsters in suits.

I know what Starkey was trying to say here, but he could have found a better way to say it.

For example, when he says "whites have ‘now become black’" the word he wants is not black: it's thug. Both whites and blacks have bought into the cliche of thug, which is a cliche, produced, commercial image, and very much a cause for concern. But it's no more "naturally" black than white. So what he should have said was that he is concerned that both blacks and whites are becoming thugs.

But while I think he could have and should have thought it through a bit more, the idea of firing him is not right either. People need to be able to debate the topic without fear, and as long as that terror and witch-hunt-hysteria element of political correctness is in place, it makes for more rather than fewer problems.

I just spent 30 minutes writing a lengthy response and then my internet died on me and I lost the whole thing.

So, I will merely state that I do not believe in multi-culture. I believe if anyone is that passionate about leaving their country for another, they should be prepared to adopt that country's culture and fit in.

Political Correctness is the the left's 'censorship through guilt' baton and they ironically love to use it to champion the freedom of speech by cutting off any argument that does not suit them and in this case raise the auto-racist card, crying narrow minded, inbred etc. Which essentially is describing their own actions in not allowing others to be heard.

The clear example of this was when BNP's leader Mr Griffin, was invited on to BBC's Question Time, only to not be heard and shouted down. Same thing here with Starkey. Although I separate those two men on values obviously.

If you dare to question a non-white culture, then up go the racist cards and you will be labelled as unintelligent and a fascist. Though ironically, a fascist is someone that will not allow opposing views to be heard over theirs.

It's their way or the highway, so to speak.

Most are too blind to see that their willingness to seek social approval in society is being used to silence the opposition.

Wake the hell up!

Regards, Skellon.

He would have been more accurate if he said that the nation is turning Islamic. They are becoming Islamic not black. He denies jihad while it consumes his culture and blames it on race and gangs.

His comments were racist and anyone who can't see it is also racist.

What he basically said is that good and upstanding black people are so because they've adopted white culture. And that scummy white people are so because they've adopted black culture.

Black culture = bad
White culture = good

reply to post by NadaCambia


That is unequivocal BS Amigo! Racisim is intolerance and to simply call another who has a valid opinion of the problem wrong as racist is wrong on your part also! it surely does not lump all of any race into any category like you just tried to imply. It means that some are acting in a manner that copies another! That is exactly what is happening there in England as well as many other countries. And if you can't see that you are being obtuse!
Zindo

reply to post by NadaCambia


With all due respect to your difference of opinion.

You have just illustrated the point I was making about the typical left approach to issues that oppose thier view points.

This is the exact view of the left that I was speaking of.


Regards, Skellon.

reply to post by mike_trivisonno


This country is not turning Islamic. We are actually becoming more secular with each year that passes. In the eyes of most fellow Brits I've ever spoken to on the subject (quite a lot), most Muslims are seen as being a, bunch of backward, superstitious, sexist, homophobic, god-botherers, like most religionists in general - a view which I endorse, and to which I fully subscribe. Some of our politicians may pander to these faith groups now and again, but they certainly do not represent the vast majority of Brits I've ever met.

As someone with black and mixed race people in my own family, I have no problem with multiracialism, but I am firmly opposed to open door immigration and state-endorsed multiculturalism.

I agree with Partygirl ; Dr. Starky should have said that our nations youth (all races) are being corrupted by a packaged media generated subculture, based on the lowest stereotyped views of American and Jamaican ghetto life, as propagated through hip hop music, movies, television shows and video games.

Then again, our grandparents probably once said something similar about Little Richard and Elvis.

A friend of mine just sent me this

I riot because I am nobody, nothing, less than nothing I am invisible, ​ a ghost in this city, this country, this world. People don't see me, and don't give a sh#t about me or what's going to happen to me. My parents don't care, my teachers don't care, the politician ​s don't care, the police don't care; no one gives a fk about me and my life. If people do ever see me, they don't really see me; they just see an anti-socia ​l, worthless, ​ feral teenager; they see a danger to society, a threat to the peace. If no one cares about me why should I care about anyone else? I riot because no one ever listens

I riot because no one ever listens to me. No one has ever really istened to me; nobody hears what I have to say. But when I riot, it seems the whole world stops and listens. My riot is my voice. It is the expression ​ of my feelings, the sound of inarticulate rage which I cannot express any other way. I don't expect anyone wil understand ​ what I'm saying, I cannot put it into nice words; but I feel the need to say it anyway. I have to let it out somehow, and right now, music, or drugs, or vandalism is not enough.

I riot because I feel powerless every day of my life. I'm not in control of what happens to me other people are always deciding about my life, telling me what's right for me - teachers, cops, social workers, pastors, politician ​s, media commentato ​rs. When I riot, I fee powerful, I feel in control. It may only last a few hours, but for those brief moments when I smash something or burn something, ​ I feel like a free person in control of my own destiny. I feel like somebody. When I riot, I feel like a real man.

I know its no justification, but this nihlist culture to some extent has been forced on them.

I suspect by design too.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Racism is judging a race based on their character actions instead of their characteristics. Furthermore, you can be tolerant of a race and still be racist - intolerance is not a requirement of racism.

examples:
Blacks have brown eyes and black hair. - judged based on characteristics - not racism
Blacks are hooligans who indoctornate whites with their wicked behavior. - judged on character actions - racism

From the examples you should be able to understand what Starkey said was racist.

------------------------------

Also, I'd like to mention that, in my opinion, racism in and of itself, isn't bad - idiotic maybe - but not morally wrong. Only some actions derived from racism can be defined as being morally wrong.

reply to post by EvanB

I think most of 'em have simply grown up with a nihilistic self-centred attitude, and rioted because it was a bit of a laugh. For others it was simply a chance to make a bit of money flogging stolen goods.

The attitude comes with the subculture that has been spoonfed them wholesale by our perverted media.

So according to some people on this thread black is synonymous with thug? He said black but he meant thug so that makes it ok? Oh...ok. Nevermind the fact that he was using it in a denigrating manner.

Then the rest are using this as an excuse to talk about all the political correctness in the world restricting their freedom of speech; "it's so hard to say what I want with the left's political correctness holding back my tongue". If you had common sense you wouldn't be complaining about it.

reply to post by NocturnalPhantom


Although most at ATS like to believe wars are because of religion, I would say the majority of wars and riots have been for pillaging. Humans have been materialistic for a very very long time and rioting and wars for the sole purpose of pillaging is nothing new. Just look at the wars in the middle east - all they're doing is looting oil.

i think he is right in a way on its own rap and the whole gangster lifestyle has been carefully packaged to western youth across the world ......but there is a bigger agenda going on, i think tools such as feminism have been used for years to undermine the family, the media uses divide and conquer techniques old vs young, men vs women, white vs black, religion vs religion.....you cant discuss any of this because the media have seeded the thinking that its politically incorrect to think a mother and father should raise a child and a multitude of other topics, if its not politically incorrect they have even harsher labels to shut you up with, i think alot of this is too easily blamed on capitalism i think there are darker forces at work who actually want to weaken society to the point where it is very dangerous for everyone in it, fear is one hell of a control factor.........i dont think half of the people rioting could actually sit down and explain why they are angry, and the media will highlight this but thats not the point the fact that alot of people feel angry irrelevent wether they can articulate is it they feel it.....you dont need to understand pain to feel pain its another diversion.......middle class people scratching there heads saying its all mindless violence for the sake of violence that sort of talk could anger alot of people......might even cause a riot!

reply to post by Bleeeeep


I never said most wars are caused by religion. I said most religionists are backward, superstitious, sexist, homophobic woo-shunters, which they are.

Your other points are right, though.

I think Starky's comments equating thug with black, were racist. I don't know if he is himself a racist though.

Originally posted by LexiconV
reply to post by EvanB

 

From examining the timeline of events the trigger point of the riots was when the 16 year old girl was getting brutally beaten by the police. Why is it that the media across the globe conveniently keeps omitting this point?
The Tottenham area and the surrounding districts have a long history of violent unethical police actions of framing, maiming and killing innocent people with no consequence.

Because that wouldn't fit the sentiment that black people are "inferior". In the pre-civil rights era, they were labeled "animals" anytime they lashed back for acts of disgusting violence like lynchings, truck draggings, rapes, church bombings by groups like the KKK. Its a "we can hit you but you better not hit us back or we'll cry foul" attitude going on herey. Not to mention all of the closet racists that willingly overlook facts like this. Am I condoning riots? NO. Riots are pointless. But when you wail and wail and wail on a group of people they're eventually gonna wail back.

Its also telling that when a large political body plunders, destroys and kills its "governing". When the people do it, its "mindless chaos".

In one aspect the man was right, there is a spread of "gang culture" through all groups but this is nothing new nor is it exclusive to blacks and for this wiener to imply that white=good/smart and black=stupid/violent is beyond offensive, pompous and ignorant.

Originally posted by NadaCambia
His comments were racist and anyone who can't see it is also racist.

What he basically said is that good and upstanding black people are so because they've adopted white culture. And that scummy white people are so because they've adopted black culture.

Black culture = bad
White culture = good

There's no "basically" to it. That's exactly what he implied. Everyone here that agrees with him is a racist whether they'll admit it or not.

reply to post by NocturnalPhantom


I'm not trolling you man. Just trying to make you understand it wasn't mass media's fault - it's human's materialistic nature.

I haven't even read any post of yours in regards to religion. I was just stating people on ATS like to throw stones at religion for causing most wars. I was simply using it as a segue.

This is off topic but can someone please explain, why do police in Britain use horses? im sure they have cars..

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Sorry if I came across as hostile to you, because I am not, and I didn't think you were trolling. I just thought you misread my previous post. My opposition is not to beliefs per se, just dogmatism in general.

It's not wholly the media's fault as you say, but when our young grow up day in and day out having all this crap rammed down their throats, the media has to accept some responsibility. Peer pressure also plays a big part, and those who have kids should really do more to encourage them to take a more critical look at their surroundings and think more for themselves, instead of letting their classmates and the idiot-box do all their thinking for them.