Capitalism Is Bad. Time For Change?

Originally posted by objectivist
Greece ireland spain all socialist going broke.Capitalism is what has been financing all the entitlement programs in this country for years without it we would be in worse shape .How come everybody blames the banks but not the people who signed the loans and did not pay them in good faith.Socialism is strangling Capitalism in this country.Just wait till the Ponzi scheme collapses and it will it has too. OUR market isnt free anymore taxes tariffs social security these thing are socialistic and they are giving capitalism a bad name I encourage everyone to read the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE No NANNY STATE IN THAT who can seriously argue with freedom and we all have a right to a profit

Capitalism free-market system: an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit

yes man, that was 30/40 years ago
BUT BUT now there is no more capitalism !!!! now it became NEO-capitalism or neo-liberalism or corporatism, not because of your imagination of socialist wellfare but because of lack of MONEY for the state because the rich and wealthy do not pay fair taxes !!!!!!!!!

so please study some economics and read the other treads as they explain better how things go on !!!!
you and your trouble with " socialism ", I think you haved trouble with SOLIDARITY between and for the people in your country !!!!!

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by MasterGemini

 

If you make an argument in the form of "I think capital gain taxes and corporate taxed alone would be enough because [fill in your reason], maybe we can have a civilized conversation. If not, I am not interested.

Did you even read any of the articles I linked to you?

I am serious, did you read any of them? Are you capable of math?

I provide you with all that and you just say not interested?

That is a weak response from you and hints greatly that you rather just have others think and do all the work for you.

Okay let me help you out again.

Over 50% of the nations income is to the top ten percent.
Average of 20% of that comes from salary and income designated in the income tax
the other 80% is in capital gains.

current rates of capital gains at 15%
proposed rates at 30% and expect to capture 20-25%

And that is just for the top ten percent.

Now eliminate the income tax and watch as the bottom 90% see an average of 18-24% rise in their income.
We are a consumer based economy

18% increase in untaxed income translates to a huge increase in disposable income equates which leads to increased spending and then growth


Get it?

Does that help with your math a little?

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
BUT BUT now there is no more capitalism !!!! now it became NEO-capitalism or neo-liberalism or corporatism, not because of your imagination of socialist wellfare but because of lack of MONEY for the state because the rich and wealthy do not pay fair taxes !!!!!!!!!
]

How can you say that when the top 10% of earners pay approximately 70% of federal income tax collected? When the bottom 50% pay nearly no income tax?

www.heritage.org...

Originally posted by wasco2

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
BUT BUT now there is no more capitalism !!!! now it became NEO-capitalism or neo-liberalism or corporatism, not because of your imagination of socialist wellfare but because of lack of MONEY for the state because the rich and wealthy do not pay fair taxes !!!!!!!!!
]

How can you say that when the top 10% of earners pay approximately 70% of federal income tax collected? When the bottom 50% pay nearly no income tax?

www.heritage.org...

Go back a few posts and read the articles I posted.

Income tax is BS. You are confusing "earners" with those that have a high income based on capital gains (whether or not they were the ones to accumulate that capital is another issue here also)

Heritage is largely full of S. . . . . ideological nonsense designed to baffle with bs.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
Over 50% of the nations income is to the top ten percent.
Average of 20% of that comes from salary and income designated in the income tax
the other 80% is in capital gains.

I looked through your links but could not find anything that substantiates what you are saying. In fact, they seem to directly contradict your claims. If I make a fast estimate the nation wide income from capital gain is about 10%. Even if you tax it 100%, you are still short about 1/3 of the current tax income.

Anyway, I think this is getting completely off topic and its doesn't seem to go anywhere.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit
You sound like diehard communist or socialist good luck with that Most rich people pay more in taxes than you make in a year for all of these welfare programs and social security and food stamps RICH PEOPLE PAY WAY MORE THAN YOU OR I DO I PAY ALMOST 50 percent Here is a list of some taxes imposed (government revenue sources)

Accounts Receivable Tax


Accumulated Earnings Tax The Professor says, "Accumulated earnings tax"
Ad Valorem Tax (includes duties on imported items), also see Property tax Ad valorem tax

Alternative Minimum Tax Alternative minimum tax

Aviation Fuel Tax Aviation fuel tax

Capital Gains Tax Capital gains tax

Cement and Gypsum Producers License Tax Cement producers license tax

Cigarette Tax Cigarette Tax

Coal Severance Tax

Coal Gross Proceeds Tax Coal gross proceeds tax

Consumer Counsel Tax Consumer council tax

Consumption Tax Consumption tax

Corporate Income Tax Corporate income tax

Corporation License Tax

Court Fines (revenue from many activities) Court fines

Customs Duty Customs duty

Dog License Tax Dog license tax

Double Tax Double taxation

Electrical Energy Producers Tax

Estate Tax, Inheritance Estate Tax, Inheritance tax

Federal Income Tax Federal income tax

Federal Unemployment Tax Federal unemployment tax

Fishing License Tax Fishing license tax

Food Service License Tax Food service license tax

Fuel Permit License Tax Fuel permit license tax

Gas Guzzler Tax Gas guzzler tax

Gasoline Tax (8 to 35 cents per gallon) Per tank? Gasoline tax

Generation-skipping Transfer Tax

Gift Tax Gift tax

Gross Production Tax

Hospital Facility Utilization Fee Tax Hospital facility utilization fee tax

Hunting License Fee Tax Hunting license tax

Inheritance Tax, see Estate Tax

Inventory Tax Inventory tax

IRS Interest Charges IRS interest charges

IRS Penalties Tax IRS penalties

Kiddie Tax Kiddie tax

Land Value Tax Land value tax

Liquor License Tax Liquor license tax

Liquor Tax Liquor tax

Local Tax

Lodging Facility Use Tax Lodging facility use tax

Luxury Tax Luxury tax

Marriage License Tax Marriage license revenue

Medicare Tax Medicare tax

Metal Mines Gross Proceeds Tax

Metal Mines License TaxMetal mines license tax

Miscellaneous Mineral Mines License Tax Miscellaneous mineral mines license revenue

Miscellaneous Mines Net Proceeds Tax Miscellaneous mines net proceeds tax

Nursing Facility Bed Tax Nursing facility bed tax

Oil and Natural Gas Production Tax Oil and Natural Gas production tax

Parking Meter Tax Parking meter tax

Payroll Tax Payroll tax

Professional PrivilegeTax Professional privilege tax

Property Tax Property tax

Proxy Tax Proxy tax

Public Contractor's Gross Receipts Tax Public contractor's gross receipts tax

Public Service Commission Tax

Public Utility Tax Public utility tax

Real Estate Tax Real estate tax

Real Estate Transfer Tax Real estate transfer tax

Rental Vehicle Sales Tax Rental vehicle sales tax

Resort Tax Resort tax

Resource Indemnity and Groundwater Assessment Tax Resource indemnity and groundwater assessment tax

Retail Telecommunications Excise Tax Retail telecommunications excise tax

Sales Tax Sales tax

School Tax School tax

Self-Employment Tax Self employment tax

Septic Permit Tax Septic tank permit tax

Severance Tax Severance tax

Social Security Tax Social security tax

State Income Tax State Income tax

State Unemployment Tax State unemployment tax

Statewide Emergency Telephone 911 System Fee Tax State 911 telephone tax

Surtax Tax - Extra tax. Surtax - Extra tax

Tariffs - A tax on imports. Needed to protect all the industries we used to have.
Tariffs

Telephone Federal Excise Tax Telephone federal excise tax

Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Since May of 1997, "This helps provide affordable phone service and gives schools, libraries, and rural healthcare providers access to the Internet."

Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax

TDD Telecommunications Service Fee Tax TDD telecommunications service fee tax

Tobacco Products Tax (Other than Cigarettes) Tobacco products tax

Toll Road Fee Tax Toll road tax

Toll Bridge Fee Tax Toll bridge fee tax

Toll Tunnel Fee Tax Toll tunnel fee tax

Tonnage Tax

Traffic Fines Traffic fines

Trailer Registration Fee Tax Trailer registration tax

Use Tax Use tax

Utility Tax, see Public Utility Tax

Vehicle Registration and License Tax Vehicle registration and license tax

Vehicle Sales Tax Vehicle sales tax

Watercraft Registration Tax Watercraft registration tax

Well Permit Tax Well permit tax

Wholesale Energy Transaction Tax

Workers Compensation Tax Workers compensation tax
HOW CAN ANYBODY NO PAY TAXES IF YOU MAKE IT YOU SPEND IT

It is indeed unfortunate that many think and or have somehow concluded that capitalism has failed and that as a result of such perceived failure that it's time for something new.

I don't think for one second that capitalism has failed as much as the greed and the immoral attitudes that have replaced what was once good about real capitalism with a system that promotes breakage and failure so as to generate that next sale.

It is this type of greed oriented typical business attitude that has undermined real capitalism in America and replaced with products that don't last, don't have any life in them and can be counted on to fail or self destruct as owners of such products soon learn.

Once upon a time and immediately after WWII, this nation began building, encouraging development and encouraging innovation in everything that was American in nature. It would promote capitalism and make America the model that the world wanted to become with our rock and roll, Hollywood movies and our freedoms to be lazy or be what we can dream for ourselves if only we apply our efforts into becoming something.

That era of capitalism growth in America was mostly due to the attitude that people created things in America to last. Quality stood for Americanism and to reflect that attitude it had to be made to last or else Americans wouldn't buy it. That is at least how it use to be before profit was the only motivation for being in business.

Well soon it would be discovered by those that worship money that if you build something to last, that you don't sell as many as if you build something that fails right after the 60 day warranty runs out.

In such a world where businessmen do things and create things that fail and break, these supposed capitalist then used their altered capitalistic system of ensured product failure to ensure that they could sell another and another with no regard to quality any longer being the problem that these greedy types saw with something built to last forever.

America has become dependent on cheaper and as long as its cheap, we don't complain about how many we have to buy just to get something done. This is why America is a slave to China.

It is this change in what Americans valued that American businessmen changed to their greed oriented benefit.

American now follows a model of cheaper is better and so what if it isn't worth it. It's cheap and that is what America has become.

Changing what we do to correct this dilemma should not be predicated on changing capitalism as much as eliminating the greed and corruption in our business world that makes decisions for the consumer based only on what benefits the corporation doing the selling.

This is what is wrong with our capitalistic system. Then if you look closer, you will see that it is all about profits and only profits, that caused our American way of life and capitalism to be viewed as some failure.

No, I say its not capitalism that has failed America. I say it is the corporations that didn't like quality and since they were more concerned with making money, anything that breaks is a good way to ensure that the slave consumer buys another and another and so forth.

This to me is the madness in the system, because I know that capitalism will never be restored to its importance in America until the corporations that have abused capitalism are brought into line with rules and regulations that place quality over quantity and only in doing so, will capitalism ever be restored to the proper level of respect that it should have.

Capitalism is what built America and it was greed and corruption that destroyed it while we silently went along with it so that we could get it cheaper at Walmart and could care less that it took American jobs and manufacturing and gave it all to China just so the corporations could make more money.

I say don't replace capitalism with more corporate rules that benefit only the corporations, I say get rid of greed and corruption that places profits over anything moral and decent for Americans. only then will capitalism be seen as the positive force that it should be regarded as.

Until then, capitalism will continue to be blamed for what ails Americans and yet the real problem that plagues America is the greedy corporations that continue to use capitalism solely for their means of profits, no matter what has to be done and even if they have to order manufacturing to make sure and not use good or quality materials because of course if it breaks, they want to feel as if you will "HAVE TO" buy another and another.

Thanks for the thread. I hope my thoughts offer some meaningful discussion to this subject matter.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


I already replied to your post and explained to you the distinction between capitalism and the debt monster we currently have.

Read very carefully.

Originally posted by -PLB-

Originally posted by MasterGemini
Over 50% of the nations income is to the top ten percent.
Average of 20% of that comes from salary and income designated in the income tax
the other 80% is in capital gains.

I looked through your links but could not find anything that substantiates what you are saying. In fact, they seem to directly contradict your claims. If I make a fast estimate the nation wide income from capital gain is about 10%. Even if you tax it 100%, you are still short about 1/3 of the current tax income.

Anyway, I think this is getting completely off topic and its doesn't seem to go anywhere.

I guess I must do more work for you as you refuse to do any digging yourself.

Why the super rich pay less in taxes
www.thedailybeast.com...

What’s wrong with this two-tiered tax system?
www.faireconomy.org...

Critical thinking is a life skill.

And looking at your post you did not include corporate capital gains nor corporate income.........
you never go full retard, never.

reply to post by wasco2
[moreI AGREE these guys want to tax the rich and the corporations right out of business and they wonder why there are no jobs.These socialists forget that if you tax the corporations they just pass it on threw higher prices so either way we pay for it.Socialist LOOTERS

reply to post by MasterGemini


Maybe you should think a bit more yourself and realize that doubling the tax on 10% of the total income and removing the tax on 90% of total income isn't going to result in the same amount of tax. It is going to be, say, ten times as low. But don't let such little details spoil your brilliant idea.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by MasterGemini

 

Maybe you should think a bit more yourself and realize that doubling the tax on 10% of the total income and removing the tax on 90% of total income isn't going to result in the same amount of tax. It is going to be, say, ten times as low. But don't let such little details spoil your brilliant idea.

seriously? 50% of that 90% already does not pay any income tax....

why do I bother with you....?

Oh I see you said TOTAL INCOME, well you clearly do not understand that there are two types of income that get taxed.

Originally posted by VikingDude
Hello ATS

So, with all the fuzz about economies falling, politicians failing their citizens, large corporations exploiting people all around the world in the name of profit and ''good business'', would it then be time to get rid of the monetarian system and replace it with a moneyless society - a step up on the evolutionary ladder?

Debate away

Mods: Please move this topic if it's posted in the wrong forum

capitalism, with all it's faults, worked as long as it produced something.

today the financial sector has become a vampire, using scams that are basicaly just gambling where the house always win and society looses.

today capital wants to produce wealth from cash .

it produces nothing, it's just a vampire bleeding the real economy to death.

capitalism might survive in most of the world, but in the USA our financial sector is hopeless.

privatized profits, with society covering the damaged caused by their criminal actions.

eventualy these criminal banksters will bleed the real economy to death.

but capitalism will survive in the parts of the world where it produces wealth, and the banks are regulated.

reply to post by MasterGemini


That 50% pays over 30% tax according to your own sources. Anyway, you are a bit to unintelligent to proceed conversation.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by MasterGemini

 

That 50% pays over 30% tax according to your own sources. Anyway, you are a bit to unintelligent to proceed conversation.

Yes, keep breaking it down.
What is the other 70%?

corporate and capital gains mostly.

Return to the effective rates of 30% (which was what they were before clinton and bush)

can you guess the result?

You would only need to 50% rise to cover your 30% ( the target is 100% rise)

and those other 30% would have more money to go then invest and buy and so on


And actually make the corporations who are not real people but organizations pay their full tax and not pass it on.

In this old photograph it is noteworthy that the long line shown on the banner these people carry is the UNEMPLOYMENT LINE.



When all is said and done this should determine whether or not Capitalism is working.

How are your people getting on? Are they employed?

Are they able to care for themselves and their families?

People are trying to fool other people by saying the system is collapsing because people are lazy and they don't want to work.
Not true and lets call this the Taurean excrement that it is, or if we cannot, due to censors, lets call it a vile, disgusting slimy, runny bull-diarrhea and gelatinous pig vomit mixed into a tasty shake ...

Because The system is failing.

And to say anything else is a lie.

Here is what Michael Moore has to say about it.
Capitalism - A Love Story
topdocumentaryfilms.com...

reply to post by newcovenant


LOL

Nice picture, how about you post some pictures from the USSR, East Berlin, China, North Korea

Yeah great alternative.

If you understood what capital was you would realize that we do not have any real capital for capitalism happen.

I noticed under your avatar you had a quote about fascism. Fascism is no different from socialism or communism at all three unite the government and business giving them total control over the peons of the system.

communism requires a philosopher king, or group to perfectly lead everyone and no such thing exists.

So what alternative is there?

Once china started practicing capitalism it started developing economically and is now on its way out of the stone age. But they are practicing pseudo capitalism so that is really a poor example also.

And Michael Moore is fat P.O.S. hypocrite. He claims he hates capitalism yet he keeps all the money he makes and lives it up like a wall street banker. Yeah if you want to follow his lead go right ahead. When I walk by you begging on the street I will gladly spare you some bread if I have any extra

reply to post by MasterGemini

LOL Nice picture, how about you post some pictures from the USSR, East Berlin, China, North Korea Yeah great alternative.

Because that is what the opposition does.
That would be those same types of fear tactics, inflammatory rhetoric and violent imagery the Nazi's use to get people to accept something they WANT THEM TO ACCEPT that is not in their National best interest.

Lots of you people pretend to care about human rights and personal liberty but just talk the talk.

Look at the shape this country is in. We can't even pull ourselves out of debt. Nobody is working and there are no jobs. Everyday liberties are being snatched away. We are so far from free it is pathetic. And worse that you don't see it. People are always hiding behind the "we are not as bad as them" argument and when it comes right down to it who gives a flying duck? And I do mean duck so keep your mind out of the gutter Mc Carthy.

Michael Moore's size has nothing to do with what we are talking about but that's another cute tactic people who try to manipulate others and control their thinking use.
That person is LESS THAN you and I - because of religion, sex, race, size, or age etc...so their (worthy and valid) opinion should be thrown out. I am of the opinion everyone has something worthwhile to say and do that should be taken into consideration in the grand scheme of things. You do not. So who is imposing on peoples liberty and freedom again?

We are not socialist suggesting a socialist agenda, or Nazi's. So why would I pretend to BE them? Why would I fill peoples head with useless propaganda designed to put a frightening spin on a rational and necessary argument? That gets us no where but in a heated debate. We are rational people looking for new solutions fighting against people who repeat the same mistakes over and over and expect different results.

reply to post by newcovenant


Well there is really no challenging the logic there. I agree with that. However most of the problems stem from placing too much power in too few hands.

Which I feel the tax structure I was advocating would help even it out by rewarding those who go out and earn rather than those who sit at home collecting capital gains off of their workforce.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Well there is really no challenging the logic there. I agree with that. However most of the problems stem from placing too much power in too few hands.

Which I feel the tax structure I was advocating would help even it out by rewarding those who go out and earn rather than those who sit at home collecting capital gains off of their workforce.

This is true. We have abdicated the job of making decisions we should be making ourselves to politicians we don't even like. I think it is about time to start micro-managing this government ourselves. How? I don't know but I know there will come a day when citizenry takes part in even the smallest day to day decisions that affect us all. After all it is our world.