Capitalism Is Bad. Time For Change?

Seriously, I don't see how capitalism can't end bad. Greed kills it has a viable form of economic society, there is no way that free capitalism won't end up exactly like it is today.

And the arguments I hear over and over on why is socialism is bad and evil are always the same 2 things.
First, humans are lazy.
Second, people that work hard can't stand out.

Ok, so for the first...well maybe if humans would put something else then money has being the number one thing ever in life, it would be a start. Ever heard of honor and duty?
Why can't people have honor in their values, or country, or family? Oh yeah, money.

If people knew that they HAVE to work to make their system go on and build it's meaning around honor and duty might help. Also, in an intelligent system where you don't waste time with capitalism's only way of being free and accomplished.... (money),people might not HAVE to work 40 hours a week. In a world where there is an other omega then getting money, why would someone work 40 hours a week when they don't want to AND don't need to.
In the world we have today, the most lazy make the most money. Think of the people on top, the elite...they ain't changing anything in their ways to make the world better they just take take and take, and they are freakin lazy because if I was them, I would find another way then oil to rip us off.

Second! Most of you anti-socialist think you can't do what you really want in anything else then capitalism. Well, let me tell you. Do you imagine how many humans out there will never do anything to their full capacity because they simply don't have money and can't get money because they start with nothing at all in life? Potentially the best bankers, best teachers, best musicians, best politicians will never ever do what they are the best at, because they don't have money.
Yeah capitalism gives us soooo many choices, has long that you are rich and manipulative enough.

We should find ways to make people do what they are born to do.
We should work towards ways of making more in society with less resources, material and human resources.
We should wake up and see that money is not freedom, it's only painting your chains in a new color every week.
We should make integrity, honor, competition, self awareness, spirituality, accomplishment, pushing our limits part of our daily lives.

Everything is taken away because of the capitalism system, eventually only the few will have access to this so called freedom. Money, greed kills everything that is good in us and everything that we could do better.

I totally agree that plain cold socialism sucks, it's flawed.
But there are plenty ways to make it better and just call in another word if you guys are so afraid of it.

reply to post by -PLB-

I will praise you until eternity when you pick up my garbage, fix my plumbings, grow my food, build my house, etc etc. All while I sit on my lazy ass with beer in my hand that you just brewed and bottled for me.

You don't get it. Greed is SOME PEOPLES MOTIVATOR but not everybody's. Most people are not as lazy and selfish as you claim you are, because they need to keep active anyway and so want a fulfilling means of work. This is why people are reluctant to retire and why many die soon after.

Respect and appreciation for your contribution to improving the "society" along with a DECENT wage you can get by and raise a family on. Most people would be happy with that.

They can't get it. The system is stacked against them and they are slipping and will slip farther if the trend toward creating only what sells the fastest for the most money does not change to.... WHAT DO WE NEED?

When we learn to reward people for MANUFACTURING, or prioritizing, what we need as opposed to producing whatzits first and then hoping they will sell, trashing them and producing different whatzits and then hoping they will sell....until you get just the right formula for your whatzit...then work on making it cheaper with a shorter lifespan to increase profits...CAPITALIZE...

You end up with a Bizarre-O World. A literal SHOPPING BIZARRE.
No good schools parks or sidewalks but you got a lot of whatzits.
Oh and strip joints and drug stores, not that there's anything wrong with that.

And if the government wasn't already browsing ATS they are now.

I am not against capitalism, but I think a bit of socialism helps keep it in check. I find the total rejection of the idea of socialism problematic in that way.

The socialistic mentality incorporates the notion of "being social", that is, seeing oneself as a part of a larger whole, a member of a group.

I used to think that money is the only thing that can ever motivate anyone. I moved to another country and saw more and more instances of people around me turn down opportunities to have more money, and I immediately judged them stupid. There were times I would be putting emphasis on an opportunity for money making with my co-workers and boss, and be baffled by their seeing my point, and simply refusing to take advantage of it- even more baffling their looks of disgust at me.

I went into a period of trying to study and find out what is different with these people- What makes them get up in the morning and actually go to work, if they are so lacking in ambition for money, for possessions, for MORE!

I found out it is the social part of their being that moves them. The desire to be with others, to be working side by side, in a team, interacting, feeling part of something bigger than themselves. They don't sit at home with a beer in their hand because they like and feel a need to be with others and not alone.

Their social animal instincts also percieve that being a member of a group means you get certain benefits, but to be a member, you also have certain duties. If you don't want the duties, you don't get the benefits, you aren't in the club. It's a natural sense that these organisms are like biological organisms- each part must put out as much as it recieves. Just consuming makes the body fat and the organisms functions begin to fail, and all parts suffer.

The extreme capitalism, when it reaches beyond the economy and is the basic mentality as well, dsiconnects us with our social animal instincts. That natural part of us the subconsciously understands and is motivated to pitch in and be productive with our fellow members of society. That turns out to be a source of motivation much stronger than I could have thought it was before.

The idea that everyoe is so controlled in a society that includes some socialism seems quite false to me, at least in my experience with France, where the economy is capitalistic, but the mentality of the people is socialistic,( and they do have socialized medicine. ) In almost every aspect of society one is free to do things alone and outside of norms and procedures, and in each case all that means is that you also become exempt from recieving certain benefits. It seems perfectly logical.

LIke being an entrepreneur cuts you off from a lot of benefits, like social security. You are suddenly on your own with all that- medical, retirement..... so, why do people do it? Because the innate desire for individual creativity and freedom is still there, and motivates too! People are willing to give up all aid just to be their own boss and create their own business.

So I think money is NOT the only motivator for humans, we have built in drives for other things that can run our engines.

I think that we got trapped in something like "clicker training". This is one of those training methods for animals, in which the actual original motivator gets associated with a certain other stimulus, and then the original motivator is eliminated, and the animal continues to strive for that stimulus anyway, completely forgetting why they liked it in the first place and what it originally was associated with! You use a treat to reward, and each time you make a clicking sound, or a blow a whistle, or say a word (good boy) as they recieve it. After a while you can eliminate the treat- all they want and look for is the click, whistle or word!

Money used to come associated with things like food, comfort, protection, or freedom. It seems those things can be eliminated because now all we strive for is the money- we forgot what the original motivator was.

The mom-and-pop Chinese food restaurant down the street from my house is practicing capitalism, which is business for profit. They sell a product, they live off the profits after expenses. Simple as that.

Capitalism can lead to corporatism, but they are are two different animals as different as a mouse and a blue whale. I wish everyone who decries capitalism with wailing and gnashing of teeth could have the capability to see that and stop mixing up the two.

/TOA

in fact fabian Socialism is a specific ideology which embraces incrementalism in bringing in communism. The Communst Party websites even say it.

Heres something I found too
hubpages.com...

By Vladimir Uhri
Socialism is the bridge to the final stage of Communism. Others have described it as Socialism is the prelude to Communism. One must attend classes of the Communist doctrine otherwise it is impossible to understand the entire system.
Communism cannot exist without international Communism. We have now the new name: The New World Order.
Socialism is the system where all property including property that belongs to the people now belongs to the state and later to the Communistic system.
Communism is a world system with one government and one dictator. Socialism is temporary stage; the Communism is permanent, according to the Marxist plan.

Originally posted by The Old American
The mom-and-pop Chinese food restaurant down the street from my house is practicing capitalism, which is business for profit. They sell a product, they live off the profits after expenses. Simple as that.

Capitalism can lead to corporatism, but they are are two different animals as different as a mouse and a blue whale. I wish everyone who decries capitalism with wailing and gnashing of teeth could have the capability to see that and stop mixing up the two.

/TOA

Maybe they would all rather just work on a collective farm. That was the old Soviet System. Gulag anyone?

Capitalism is properly defined as the voluntary exchange of private property. What most modern leftists define as 'capitalism' can not be defined as the above, as our current (and historical) system is neither fully voluntary and neither fully private. The proper label vs the system they oppose is more accurately termed 'Corporatism' and is defined as the merger of private and governmental power. Otherwise known as Mercantilism or Fascism, this is the prevailing model of the modern world and is the cause and effect of most of the societal ills that short sighted thinkers wish to pin on Capitalism. (or more properly defined as 'Freedom')

'Capitalism' is simply an effect and consequence of personal freedom, as freedom is simply a state of being that is free of violence and coercion. Thus any opponent to 'Capitalism' (not to be confused with 'Corporatism') must by default be proposing violence and coercion against the individual, as any opponent to non aggression and private property must, axiomatically, advocate the violation of said freedoms. A violation of freedom can only be archived via force.

Thus any opponents to the voluntary exchange of private property must, by necessity, be advocating violence. I submit that this is bad.

I'm guessing most of you aren't into Theonomic Constructionsim and the creation of a Godly Kingdom on earth, or my own personal vision of a world run by the youth. So leaving aside those choices for a moment, I'd just like to say it would be nice if we had a society where people didn't use material wealth (i.e., money and posessions) to define status. I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that people are going to be competing for status no matter what. This is the core realization of human nature by Capitalism that makes it suprerior to Communism. But using money as a status marker is very distructive, both to the earth and to the human soul. It would be nice if we could compete for something else that doesn't cause as much destruction (ATS stars and flags, maybe?)

Karl Marx railed against the bourgeois Capitalists. Marxists today still do. Communists hate Capitalism. Communists must prefer collective farms. Unions are a tool of communists.

Originally posted by Partygirl
I'm guessing most of you aren't into Theonomic Constructionsim and the creation of a Godly Kingdom on earth, or my own personal vision of a world run by the youth. So leaving aside those choices for a moment, I'd just like to say it would be nice if we had a society where people didn't use material wealth (i.e., money and posessions) to define status. I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that people are going to be competing for status no matter what. This is the core realization of human nature by Capitalism that makes it suprerior to Communism. But using money as a status marker is very distructive, both to the earth and to the human soul. It would be nice if we could compete for something else that doesn't cause as much destruction (ATS stars and flags, maybe?)

I've never heard of Theonomic Constructionism. But the creation of a Godly Kingdom on earth, yah let's do it. Letting the youth run it, not so sure, but giving them a voice and an outlet for their creative energies yah, they just need a real guide not the bogus stuff foisted on them by the liberal agenda. Many of the Tea Party youth are truly inspired.

reply to post by Bluesma


What country?

reply to post by newcovenant


The free market economy takes care of which whatzits stay and which go, whether on a large or small scale, it's all really relative, which is what makes this admin's obsession with the arbitrary $250,000 mark so silly.

reply to post by User8911


It's a fact that Socialism is the lead in to communism, and communism means total loss of freedom. It means slavery to the state. People who know the communist system from the USSR and European satellites can explain it to ya.

There is something challenging about changing people's selfish behavior for example, especially when the attitude to be humble cannot change. I sense that people WANT to be appreciated and recognized for their creative efforts and to be set apart from the group through rewards. But the NEED to be rewarded must change in order to advance an already over-populated society, even if it means to remove the concept of "capitalism" and "money" as a prime motivator to "work" for and within a system. The exchange of "energy" (and/or time) must be redefined.

reply to post by newcovenant


I never said that greed is the most important motivator, but money is. Improving our society is a task that is in the hands of our governments and has little to do with capitalism, as they do this with taxpayer money and don't need to think about profits. Sure, corruption happens, but thinking all corruption can be banished is naive. The current system minimized corruption to an all time low. I think people often forget that when criticizing the system, people somehow think it used to be better.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by newcovenant

 

The free market economy takes care of which whatzits stay and which go, whether on a large or small scale, it's all really relative, which is what makes this admin's obsession with the arbitrary $250,000 mark so silly.

Relative to what?

Take a look around you...is it working?

Or are our dumps filled with useless garbage that won't even bio-degrade?
Or are people so poor they can't afford another whatzit if their lives depended on them and sometimes them?
Or are people still "starving" for things they do need like...

AFFORDABLE HOUSING
AFFORDABLE, UNCONTAMINATED, NOURISHING FOOD
AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE OPTIONS so illness does not bankrupt them.

I don't see any one taking it on themselves to give the people THOSE things do you?

Where are they?
Shouldn't these 3 things be the biggest whatzits that are available by popular demand
and yet nothing.
No one is making those 3 happen.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT - NO WAY FOR THEM TO CAPITALIZE -
WE HAVE TO DEMAND IT. - NOT WAIT FOR THEM TO DECIDE TO "MAKE" IT.

All those things are out of most people reach and yet we do have a virtual carnival of useless trash and whatzits around us creating a disposal problem and in the case of some of this trash a health hazard.

Nope....it was nice for awhile but Capitalism has lost it's usefulness to us.
.
You like everyone else things the only alternative is Communism.
Expand your minds.
Giving people what they need and deserve
should not get called Communism so you can stand on a political high-horse.

reply to post by newcovenant


I am really wondering where you got the idea that any of this was better at any point in our history. We never had better health care than we have now. We never had healthier food than we have now. We never had better housing than we have now. In the country I live there are subsidies for "poor" people so that they can live in nice houses. To the absurd extend that some "poor" people on social welfare have more money left in the end than a neighbor that is working his ass off. Poverty is virtually non-existing. There are thousands of food regulations and food poisoning is extremely rare. You are completely free to buy any "bio" product there is. When there is something wrong with you, you are guaranteed health care.

I know some things in the USA may be a bit more "harsh", but on the flip side people in the USA are a lot more self reliant and less dependent on the government than where I live (the Netherlands). I am not saying that either is better, but every pro has a con.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I am really wondering where you got the idea that any of this was better at any point in our history. We never had better health care than we have now. We never had healthier food than we have now. We never had better housing than we have now. In the country I live there are subsidies for "poor" people so that they can live in nice houses. To the absurd extend that some "poor" people on social welfare have more money left in the end than a neighbor that is working his ass off. Poverty is virtually non-existing. There are thousands of food regulations and food poisoning is extremely rare. You are completely free to buy any "bio" product there is. When there is something wrong with you, you are guaranteed health care.

I know some things in the USA may be a bit more "harsh", but on the flip side people in the USA are a lot more self reliant and less dependent on the government than where I live (the Netherlands). I am not saying that either is better, but every pro has a con.

Ha ha ha...the doctor used to come to the house and treat me for $50
Now it is a $2000 hospital trip. You have got to be kidding.

We used to be able to have one family member bring enough income for food housing clothing, to send the kids to a decent school, buy medicine and have a little left over to start a saving.
Now 2 parents can't do this. Minimum wage although raised recently has not EVEN approached the cost of living. Diet soda is killing people on a daily basis exacerbating their "disease" and nobody bats an eye. Studies are inconclusive. Maybe to others but not really to anyone paying attention. And that is just one small example. Better off today you say? I nearly pissed myself.

Originally posted by newcovenant
Ha ha ha...the doctor used to come to the house and treat me for $50
Now it is a $2000 hospital trip. You have got to be kidding.

We used to be able to have one family member bring enough income for food housing clothing, to send the kids to a decent school, buy medicine and have a little left over to start a saving.
Now 2 parents can't do this. Minimum wage although raised recently has not EVEN approached the cost of living. Diet soda is killing people on a daily basis exacerbating their "disease" and nobody bats an eye. Studies are inconclusive. Maybe to others but not really to anyone paying attention. And that is just one small example. Better off today you say? I nearly pissed myself.

edit on 1-8-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

Are you saying you can no longer go to a local health center in the USA and can only be helped if you pay 2000 dollar in a hospital? That somehow sounds very unrealistic to me, but if true, I agree, the situation in the USA is absurd. Where I live everyone gets health care, and the costs are acceptable. I pay 70 euro a month and I have an extended insurance. Last time I had something I simply went to my local health center, they examined and treated me and I never even saw a bill. When the problem came back I went to a hospital, same story.

As for diet coke, people can simply stop drinking it. What is it you want? The government completely regulating what you can eat? Having fat and sugar quota you can not exceed? The number of rules that food has to comply to has never been more extensive than it is now. How can you say it used to be better?

The main reason why people "require" a double income is because our standard of living is so absurdly high. If you accept a standard of living equal to 50 years ago, you do not need a double income at all. Live in a cheap house in a small town and just don't buy all those expensive gimmicks. Don't use a mobile phone, don't use internet, don't use cable, buy a transistor radio and some board games and have fun.