'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by undo

 

Well, if you are correct, and I am guessing you mean Jesus was a blood sacrifice to appease God, then it was Satan killing Jesus, outside the camp of Israel, and now Satan is to be accepted as being forgiven.

not quite lol you have to start at the beginning for the middle or the end to make sense, particularly since this entire story is spanning thousands of years. jesus refers to himself as the second adam. the first adam screwed up, spiritually, which resulted in his flesh being corrupted and his spirit tainted. jesus didn't screw up spiritually, his flesh wasn't corrupted nor his spirit, and the story goes, he offered himself as the final redemptive process. his deed, ended the need for sacrifice of any kind. had it been more popular amongst the ruling elites and not forced on the world at gun point, i'm pretty sure most of the war and destruction you see in middle ages, dark ages and modern history, wouldn't have been necessary.

i have a theory that we were originally vegetarians and could actually communicate with the animals. as a result of the fall, we lost alot, including the ability to communicate directly with nature. when we were corrupted in our flesh, the need for proteins provided almost exclusively by animals, was part of the fall and change in our bodies. i won't pretend i understand what the rest of it is about above and beyond that, as i think there's quite a bit of conjecture already on why blood is a big deal. it's really quite confusing for me, and i'm fairly certain you don't want me to sit and quote one bible verse after the other..

reply to post by undo

i have a theory that we were originally vegetarians and could actually communicate with the animals. as a result of the fall, we lost alot, including the ability to communicate directly with nature.

So instead of asking the question, Why was there a talking serpent, we should be asking, Why do we not understand today, what a serpent is saying?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by undo

 

i have a theory that we were originally vegetarians and could actually communicate with the animals. as a result of the fall, we lost alot, including the ability to communicate directly with nature.

So instead of asking the question, Why was there a talking serpent, we should be asking, Why do we not understand today, what a serpent is saying?

a seraph is an angel. seraphim protect the throne of god. seraphim is plural for seraph. a seraph is a serpent. in fact, it's a firey flying serpent. (a dragon) so there's more than one serpent, and they are not all fallen. why are there dragons protecting the throne of god? and just what IS the throne of god?

reply to post by undo


Am I supposed to guess?
You may know.
My near-death or whatever experience of going someplace was in the opposite direction.
If you have been there, then fill us in.
Edit to add guess: someplace where to go is to die. So angels guard the entrance, like the fence at the foot of Mount Sinai.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by undo

 

Am I supposed to guess?
You may know.
My near-death or whatever experience of going someplace was in the opposite direction.
If you have been there, then fill us in.

edit on 17-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

nope, haven't been there. so you think that's talking about hell?

reply to post by gabby2011

Huh, what??

No one called you a "fool". It says basically that the unbelieving world would find the peaching of the cross "foolishness". You said basically the same thing about the atonement, that the idea was "psychotic".

reply to post by JonU2


well, its' about time many of you started paying attention to the old testament. I'm glad to hear it! yup God has done quite a bit as far as the slaying of evil is concerned. who is to question His judgement? by all accounts it is going to happen again. I found the secret spoken of in the sermon on the mount. the connection to God is within each of us. I found it thru a simple form of meditation,in short I went int to a dream state then out of body, lead into the tunnel so often described in the near death exp., this was done by repeating "peace and love". let me qualify this by stating I am well educated in hard science/adv.mathematics. I read excerpts from an old book about astral projection. since that first exp. the visions and visitations began, shown large modern city sunk under the ocean, thousands dead. there is too much to tell here. the world we currently live in is under siege by evil, these are the days when the battle is to occur. but its' not the end of earth, but the end of an era where money, power and control, all the physical desires of man, corruption etc.. will be ended. there will be a civil war in this country, the present gov't. will turn against the people. they will not win, the people will win. the values set down in the founding of this country will again be restored. what will happen to the rest of the world is not clear,
God has not changed, only man's conception of Him, mostly due to new testament teachings, these are the teachings of Jesus, His Son. I'm directly connected with the Father, let me tell you He is not happy with the way things are in this world. when its' all done with there will be a new era, one of peace. so what I have given you is a way to connect with God. If the ares you live in is built up and populated it may be difficult to make the connectio. where I was , it was rural, the vail/boundry between the physical and spiritual is thin close to nature.He has mandated that I tell as many as possible how to make the connection. I wish you the best

reply to post by trisvonbis


you are special aren't you. represent the all the idiots out there

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Huh, what??

No one called you a "fool". It says basically that the unbelieving world would find the peaching of the cross "foolishness". You said basically the same thing about the atonement, that the idea was "psychotic".

Oh now you're sidestepping again...it said the "foolish", and that is what you used to argue the point I was making.
Also, you put words in my mouth again...by saying I thought the idea of atonement was psychotic.

I said the idea of a blood sacrifice for atonement is psychotic, not the idea of atonement....if people were to actually atone for their sins, such as stealing, by giving back what they have stolen, instead of relying on blood sacrifice to make it right...it would make a lot more sense to me.

If your going to argue with someone , stand up behind what you say, and get what they say right.

For the record, I think that a God who has His own son killed on a cross for the blood atonement of sin, is a little whacked out....and preoccupied with blood atonement.

Originally posted by gabby2011

For the record, I think that a God who has His own son killed on a cross for the blood atonement of sin, is a little whacked out....and preoccupied with blood atonement.

Yes, Gabby, you are absolutely right, but IT IS NOT THE REAL JOYFUL GOD who had his own Son killed---it was Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call the Evil One, the true ruler of the Impostor god of the Old Testament, the cruel, bloodthirsty "demon-lord with god-pretensions", laying waste to the land and cruelly punishing even his own chosen people, even to this day, surrounding them with enemies who want to exterminate them, never giving them a moment's peace.

The Real God, the Joyful God of the New Testament, the God of the VERY FIRST CANON OF THE BIBLE, is completely different to the Impostor demi-god, demon-lord of the Old Testament. The Real God demands no blood sacrifices of humans nor animals, nor chopping off bits of the human body as a "covenant", nor killing, raping, genocide, NONE OF THOSE TERRIBLE THINGS !!!

Please look at the very first canon of the Bible, written by Marcion of Sinope around 140 AD, and then you may understand...though it seems to me that most people who attack Christianity on ATS, including the Original Poster of this thread, do not want to understand---their job is just to attack Christianity and promote Islam as one of the two potential global religions of the New World Order, the other being the "Global Goddess".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by undo

 

i have a theory that we were originally vegetarians and could actually communicate with the animals. as a result of the fall, we lost alot, including the ability to communicate directly with nature.

So instead of asking the question, Why was there a talking serpent, we should be asking, Why do we not understand today, what a serpent is saying?

Good point about the talking serpent being the only talking animal in the entire Bible.

May I ask you something else? I am very curious as to why you said elsewhere that Jesus Christ will continue to "sacrifice" himself for all eternity! Please explain this further, because I don't understand what you mean.

Originally posted by Tib50

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by undo

 

i have a theory that we were originally vegetarians and could actually communicate with the animals. as a result of the fall, we lost alot, including the ability to communicate directly with nature.

So instead of asking the question, Why was there a talking serpent, we should be asking, Why do we not understand today, what a serpent is saying?

Good point about the talking serpent being the only talking animal in the entire Bible.

May I ask you something else? I am very curious as to why you said elsewhere that Jesus Christ will continue to "sacrifice" himself for all eternity! Please explain this further, because I don't understand what you mean.

actually if you consider human flesh to be mammal, the bible is full of talking animals, even though the serpent wasn't a snake and wasn't a mammal

reply to post by Tib50

I am very curious as to why you said elsewhere that Jesus Christ will continue to "sacrifice" himself for all eternity!

This may be something peculiar to my own belief set. I may not have realized that when I made that post. Sometimes I imagine everyone is familiar with all the concepts I have always understood.
Jesus had an existence before becoming a human fetus. That life was in Heaven and he was virtually God and at a minimum was a god. He became an actual man by at least temporarily setting aside all the things which had made him a god, while retaining the same identity which is who he was as a person. Having completed this duty of being a man, for the purpose of obtaining our salvation, he went back to heaven, still having that human nature to be our representative. Where I may veer of from the usual is in believing that Jesus will retain that humanness even after the final execution of everything which is the closing of the salvation plan, and we are happily living in our world made new.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I know exactly what you mean. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18

Seems to me you have a knack for bending away from the point, and creating a straw man (that you claim to hate so much) by posting some verse..that just seems to put down the 'faithless", and in no real way addresses the issue I'm talking about.

Think about..please..lets pretend I have had no spiritual teaching of any kind ever..and I come upon christianity..and am told...read this book..its the basis of out beliefs,and I get handed a bible. I start from the beginning...wow..this God seems to demand a lot of money, and obedience, or you're screwed..Well I guess its a good thing they offer animal type blood sacrifices from time to time to appease him as atonement....?

Here is a very demanding God, who punishes severely for what seem like some not so criminal things. (not talking commandments here..though we could get into those as well)

I do not wish to slam your faith NOTurTypical, and I totally respect your right to stand up for your faith. I don't wish to change anyones minds , but only offer an understanding of the questions the OP had, and presented here.

For supposedly a very loving deity, their are a lot of repercussions by a God....and lets face it..the bible is very prejudiced towards women as well.

If I'm a fool because I don't really understand "BLOOD" sacrifice as being the only way for atonement..then I guess I prefer to be the fool....and ask questions with the mind and heart that I do have.

I don't think you're a fool gabby. You have the right to ask whatever you'd like to. Unfortunately, our answers and defenses aren't always delivered in the the best manner.

reply to post by PronoEast

I don't think you're a fool gabby. You have the right to ask whatever you'd like to. Unfortunately, our answers and defenses aren't always delivered in the the best manner.

Of course she's not a fool. I never claimed she was a fool, nor did I say she was "foolish". I posted a verse where Paul says that unbelievers think that preaching of the cross is foolishness to them. I won't charge her with slander because I think she read the verse way to fast and completely got what it said backwards.

Originally posted by gabby2011

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Huh, what??

No one called you a "fool". It says basically that the unbelieving world would find the peaching of the cross "foolishness". You said basically the same thing about the atonement, that the idea was "psychotic".

Oh now you're sidestepping again...it said the "foolish", and that is what you used to argue the point I was making.

No I'm not "sidestepping" anything whatsoever. I'm trying to explain to you that you read the verse backwards, perhaps you read it way to fast or just skimmed over it. I never said you were foolish, I never said you were a fool. I didn't even claim unbelievers are fools or that they are foolish. This is getting silly. The verse says those who are unbelievers think the preaching we Christians do about the cross is "foolishness". Or in other words, unbelievers think the gospel is absurdity.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18

What this verse says is "foolishness" is NOT the unbelievers, it's the "preaching of the cross" that is foolishness.

Also, you put words in my mouth again...by saying I thought the idea of atonement was psychotic.

I said the idea of a blood sacrifice for atonement is psychotic, not the idea of atonement....if people were to actually atone for their sins, such as stealing, by giving back what they have stolen, instead of relying on blood sacrifice to make it right...it would make a lot more sense to me.

Why is it psychotic? The entire idea is that the Lord died in OUR place. He shed His blood so we don't have to for our sins. It's the concept of redemption. It makes the Lord the hero of the story, not us. We didn't do anything to deserve it, it was unmerited grace from God.

The entire reason God wanted blood sacrifices in the OT was to ingrain in our minds how He felt about our sin. When we recoil in horror and disgust for the senseless slaughter and death of animals that they were forced to watch it let people know that God saw their sin with the same disgust.

If your going to argue with someone , stand up behind what you say, and get what they say right.

How ironic!

For the record, I think that a God who has His own son killed on a cross for the blood atonement of sin, is a little whacked out....and preoccupied with blood atonement.

"Without the shedding of blood (death) there is no forgiveness of sins." meaning, the "wages of sin is death. What's beautiful about the gospel is Christ incarnated to redeem us, to take the full wrath of God for all mankind's sins. To pay the debt we could never afford to pay ourselves. But like the verse I posted says, that may seem like "foolishness" to you when you hear it preached, but to us believers it is the power (love) of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He shed His blood so we don't have to for our sins.

Could you please quote a verse for that.
You seem to be making a big deal out of this so I am sure there must be whole pages in the Bible explaining in detail how this works exactly.
Or is it like the other thing last night about righteousness, where you quote scripture which has to do with us being able to become righteous, and not backing up your claim that the righteousness of Jesus is presented in judgement instead of ours.

reply to post by PronoEast

I don't think you're a fool gabby. You have the right to ask whatever you'd like to. Unfortunately, our answers and defenses aren't always delivered in the the best manner.

Thats ok..as long as we try and understand where the viewpoint is of the other. I am in no way trying to knock someones faith, just really speaking from the heart as to why I have issues with it..as the OP did.

Originally posted by Tib50

Originally posted by gabby2011

For the record, I think that a God who has His own son killed on a cross for the blood atonement of sin, is a little whacked out....and preoccupied with blood atonement.

Yes, Gabby, you are absolutely right, but IT IS NOT THE REAL JOYFUL GOD who had his own Son killed---it was Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call the Evil One, the true ruler of the Impostor god of the Old Testament, the cruel, bloodthirsty "demon-lord with god-pretensions", laying waste to the land and cruelly punishing even his own chosen people, even to this day, surrounding them with enemies who want to exterminate them, never giving them a moment's peace.

The Real God, the Joyful God of the New Testament, the God of the VERY FIRST CANON OF THE BIBLE, is completely different to the Impostor demi-god, demon-lord of the Old Testament. The Real God demands no blood sacrifices of humans nor animals, nor chopping off bits of the human body as a "covenant", nor killing, raping, genocide, NONE OF THOSE TERRIBLE THINGS !!!

Please look at the very first canon of the Bible, written by Marcion of Sinope around 140 AD, and then you may understand...though it seems to me that most people who attack Christianity on ATS, including the Original Poster of this thread, do not want to understand---their job is just to attack Christianity and promote Islam as one of the two potential global religions of the New World Order, the other being the "Global Goddess".

Thank you out pointing out that I may have been under the influences of false teachings...like many of us have been.

Wherever the truth lies....may love, compassion, and sound moral judgement be the winners in the end.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

He shed His blood so we don't have to for our sins.

Could you please quote a verse for that.

"A verse", no, it's unwise to base a fundamental doctrine on one verse. How about several verses? What is your faith? It seems often that you're unaware of basic Christian systematic theology. Anyways, when the Lord instituted the new covenant at the last supper He declares the purpose for His blood that will be shed the next day.

The greatest testimony is Jesus's own words about the matter:

Matthew 26:28 "...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

The Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for the remission of sins.


"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" ~ Hebrews 9:12-14

Hebrews 10:12, "...after he (Jesus) had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."

Hebrews 9:28 "...Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many..."

Acts 20:28 "...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace."

Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"

Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Hebrews 10:19 "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,"

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Want more verses?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

 

It's the concept of redemption.