'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

reply to post by Hydroman

A god that loves us unconditionally??? It appears to me that there are conditions after all...

Conditions for His love? No, none. God is love.

here's an example of how to use the data in my previous post. if you type in Genesis 1 and press the button, it takes you to the first page of the bible and gives you a whole page of verses starting at Gen. 1:1 and going to the end of the first "chapter" this is how Gen 1 looks

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning 7225 God 430 created 1254 853 the heaven 8064 and 853 the earth 776.

the numbers after words are words that were actually in the original verse. The verse above would say
Beginning God created heaven and earth.
The original words for that are accessible by pressing the numbers, such as 430 (God) which renders

'elohiym

Pronunciation
el·ō·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)
Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

also note that the Root Word (Etymology) may have a link as well, so you can trace the word back in history as far as possible. Thus 'elohiym comes from

'elowahh

Pronunciation
el·ō'·ah (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)
Probably prolonged (emphat.) from אֵל (H410)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) God

2) false god

Note that it ALSO has an etymology root, so let's click on that

'el

Pronunciation
āl (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)
Shortened from אַיִל (H352)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) god, god-like one, mighty one

a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

b) angels

c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)

d) God, the one true God, Jehovah

2) mighty things in nature

3) strength, power


anyway, we find that the first verse in Genesis 1, is actually
Beginning Elohiym created heaven and earth.

Rinse wash repeat
Like what's the word for Beginning there? For created ? For heaven? For earth?
any words in the verse that dont have a number after them were not in the original verse. those words were added by translators to make it easier for us to read it in proper english. the problem is, translators would sometimes make decisions that were based on their understanding at that exact moment. so it's always a good idea to make sure, after you've determined which words were originally there and what they were in the original language, that you re-read the verse again to see what it actually says.

Strongs Concordance (etc)
www.eliyah.com...

reply to post by NOTurTypical
It seems to me that you have no fear of Hell so have no concern whatsoever for anyone else who may go to Hell themselves from listening to you.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It seems to me that you have no fear of Hell so have no concern whatsoever for anyone else who may go to Hell themselves from listening to you.

Why should I have fear of Hell? My trust is not in my own righteousness, but Christ's gifted righteousness. That's rather harsh words when all I've done is quote the Lord's words on the matter. He's my authority and foundation. Secondly, there is NO condemnation for anyone in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). Lastly, we have already been declared righteous by the washing in his blood.

I'm not foolish enough to believe I can add anything to His completed work at Calvary. That would be blasphemy, it would presuppose that He couldn't complete His mandate and needs us to chip in.

reply to post by JonU2


Beloved JonU2, there is a lot that was mistranslated, especially when it came to God. If you would like to know the truth, go to this thread, Revelations: The secret of life, as revealed to John by the only-begotten Light. You will be surprised at what you will learn!

Peace be with you!!!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

My trust is not in my own righteousness, but Christ's gifted righteousness.

Wow, that is so cool!
Jesus substitutes his righteousness for ours, like we don't have to have any righteousness ourselves and Jesus just puts his up in our place in the Judgement?
Man, I would really like that!
Could you give me a verse for that please, so I can stop working?

Originally posted by AllIsOne

Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us.

reply to post by PronoEast

 

You're kidding? How old is planet earth, and homo sapiens?

This is actually something I've been looking into also. To be absolutely honest with you, which I think is always best in conversation, I do not have an exact answer for you. Here are 3 links pertaining to things I'm looking into.

The first couple things that come to mind is that the Bible states that God exists outside of time. So His time isn't our time. Therefore, these words could mean different things. Also, Peter says that a day is like a thousand years which furthers that thinking. I think either way, it's not a mystery on God's part. It's something we've yet to definitively answer.

I would just hope you'd at least respect me for being honest and my pursuit of these answers. Things like this are the reason I say that we should always research and ask questions. If we claim to know everything, we're ignorant. I do not claim to have all the answers. But I do commit to finding them. Thanks.

How old is Earth?
Young Earth
Old Earth

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

My trust is not in my own righteousness, but Christ's gifted righteousness.

Wow, that is so cool!

Yes it is! That's why gospel means "good news"!

Jesus substitutes his righteousness for ours,..

1. Do we seek His kingdom and "our" righteousness, or do we first seek His Kingdom and "His" righteousness?
2. Christ's "imputed" righteousness is declared in 2 Corinthians 5:21;

“For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”

Also see:

“But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” ~ 1 Corinthians 1:30

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." ~ 1 John 5:13

like we don't have to have any righteousness ourselves..

We don't. That's the consistent theme throughout scripture.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." ~ Isaiah 64:6


The Hebrew actually says "filthy menstrual rags". When we get to heaven and God judges us we hand him a gift-wrapped present and He opens it and finds dirty tampons. Likewise our efforts to earn our own righteousness apart from Christ is just as offensive to God.


"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ~ 2 Peter 1:1


Here Peter says those in Christ Jesus have the same faith and righteousness as the apostles! Because we all have Christ's gifted righteousness.


"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" ~ Romans 3:10

and Jesus just puts his up in our place in the Judgement?

Yep, that is, if our trust and faith is in His righteousness and His completed work on the cross on our behalf. If our trust is in our own efforts, things might get ugly.

Could you give me a verse for that please, so I can stop working?

If you're working for your justification I'd stop immediately. If you're working for rewards/crowns by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit for God's glory and your joy, then by all means continue.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I was being facetious.
I don't know about earning salvation or anything like that.
I know that evildoers will not enter heaven.
I was trying to get you to defend your position.
I tried to do that (with some other people) on another thread a while back and had no takers.
So you at least made an effort to support your view.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by undo

 

i think he was wrong about that as yahweh is just a later spelling of jehovah.

Other way around, Jehovah was a later spelling of the "YHWH" tetragrammaton of the OT.

There are no "J" letters or J phonetic sounds in Hebrew.

This is an interesting Youtube video of the meaning of God, if you are interested
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Lastly, we have already been declared righteous by the washing in his blood.

uggh..do you realize how archaic and sic that would sound to anyone trying to understand christianity....

I think any God who needs blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin...seems a little psychotic..

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Lastly, we have already been declared righteous by the washing in his blood.

uggh..do you realize how archaic and sic that would sound to anyone trying to understand christianity....

I think any God who needs blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin...seems a little psychotic..

I know exactly what you mean.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I know exactly what you mean. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18

Seems to me you have a knack for bending away from the point, and creating a straw man (that you claim to hate so much) by posting some verse..that just seems to put down the 'faithless", and in no real way addresses the issue I'm talking about.

Think about..please..lets pretend I have had no spiritual teaching of any kind ever..and I come upon christianity..and am told...read this book..its the basis of out beliefs,and I get handed a bible. I start from the beginning...wow..this God seems to demand a lot of money, and obedience, or you're screwed..Well I guess its a good thing they offer animal type blood sacrifices from time to time to appease him as atonement....?

Here is a very demanding God, who punishes severely for what seem like some not so criminal things. (not talking commandments here..though we could get into those as well)

I do not wish to slam your faith NOTurTypical, and I totally respect your right to stand up for your faith. I don't wish to change anyones minds , but only offer an understanding of the questions the OP had, and presented here.

For supposedly a very loving deity, their are a lot of repercussions by a God....and lets face it..the bible is very prejudiced towards women as well.

If I'm a fool because I don't really understand "BLOOD" sacrifice as being the only way for atonement..then I guess I prefer to be the fool....and ask questions with the mind and heart that I do have.

reply to post by boony

This is an interesting Youtube video of the meaning of God, if you are interested

I had to turn the video off after about 15 seconds. "Name known for countess thousands of years" what?
No, and it is not really even a name just an angel saying I am whoever I say I am.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I know exactly what you mean. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18

Seems to me you have a knack for bending away from the point, and creating a straw man (that you claim to hate so much) by posting some verse..that just seems to put down the 'faithless", and in no real way addresses the issue I'm talking about.

Think about..please..lets pretend I have had no spiritual teaching of any kind ever..and I come upon christianity..and am told...read this book..its the basis of out beliefs,and I get handed a bible. I start from the beginning...wow..this God seems to demand a lot of money, and obedience, or you're screwed..Well I guess its a good thing they offer animal type blood sacrifices from time to time to appease him as atonement....?

Here is a very demanding God, who punishes severely for what seem like some not so criminal things. (not talking commandments here..though we could get into those as well)

I do not wish to slam your faith NOTurTypical, and I totally respect your right to stand up for your faith. I don't wish to change anyones minds , but only offer an understanding of the questions the OP had, and presented here.

For supposedly a very loving deity, their are a lot of repercussions by a God....and lets face it..the bible is very prejudiced towards women as well.

If I'm a fool because I don't really understand "BLOOD" sacrifice as being the only way for atonement..then I guess I prefer to be the fool....and ask questions with the mind and heart that I do have.

what concerns me is that modern man/society has some really strange ideas about what is good and equitable treatment of each other. stalin, all by his little self, killed more people than were on the planet in old testament days. and we haven't even got to hitler, mao, and a bevy of other powerful people who seem like they are suffering from an emotional disorder. what would drive these leaders to need to be in control of so many people and then not just in control, but kill them wantonly as if they were nothing but bugs crawling down the sidewalk. science and sociology has taught them that it's okay because they are superior specimens and the rest, are inferiors of various kinds. they've offered more humans on the altar of sacrifice than every mad man in old testament and new testament history combined, all in the name of progress and evolution of society.

i realize that's a big straw man but these are the places my mind drifts to when i hear people talking about stuff that happened thousands of years ago. i wonder, is it better now or worse. i suppose quality of life is better for some, but the overall opinions of the upper eschelon seem to be decidedly dangerous and many times more sinister and deadly than anything i've read in the bible and that includes the flood (but then i don't think it was global).

reply to post by gabby2011


as regards the treatment of women, jesus was way ahead of his time. if the churches had just listened to him, you wouldn't be asking a christian these questions but rather a jewish person or an islamic person or a vedic hindu, or roman/grecian based pagans.

the text says, there's no longer male or female, jew or gentile, bond or free, for all are one in christ jesus. that was 2000 years ago. and we've just managed to get over that hump recently, and appears we may be going right back to being social pariahs. especially since everybody and his uncle, seems intent on proving jesus never existed. i mean how freaking convenient.

reply to post by gabby2011

If I'm a fool because I don't really understand "BLOOD" sacrifice as being the only way for atonement..

No you are normal and read the thread on "Only by the Shedding of Blood. . ." where it is explained how this concept is derived from Martin Luther's interpretation of the Roman concept that originated with Augustine. Also read the OP for the thread "Christus Victor. . ."

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by gabby2011

 

If I'm a fool because I don't really understand "BLOOD" sacrifice as being the only way for atonement..

No you are normal and read the thread on "Only by the Shedding of Blood. . ." where it is explained how this concept is derived from Martin Luther's interpretation of the Roman concept that originated with Augustine. Also read the OP for the thread "Christus Victor. . ."

and skip thousands of years of hebrew, israelite and jewish custom founded on the sacrificial lamb? whew, people are so hard up to get rid of jesus they actually read stuff with both eyes closed.

Originally posted by boony

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by undo

 

i think he was wrong about that as yahweh is just a later spelling of jehovah.

Other way around, Jehovah was a later spelling of the "YHWH" tetragrammaton of the OT.

There are no "J" letters or J phonetic sounds in Hebrew.

This is an interesting Youtube video of the meaning of God, if you are interested
www.youtube.com...

that's interesting. the nail, i've read that somewhere........oh yeah, here's a video for you!

reply to post by undo


Well, if you are correct, and I am guessing you mean Jesus was a blood sacrifice to appease God, then it was Satan killing Jesus, outside the camp of Israel, and now Satan is to be accepted as being forgiven.