'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

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posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by JonU2
 



I started this whole thread because I had a simple question regarding the Old 7 New Testaments which, to any non-indoctrinated person, shows that the so-called 'God' is either not just one 'God' or has a mulitple-personality disorder.


This simple question, was asked many times. It´s the same old argument, that people repeating endlessly when they try to prove that "The God of the Bible is not at all a God of love, but a God of violence and destruction. And to be honest, that argument is rather tiredsome. Because God is more than that.

What many people do not understand, or they do not want to, is that God is also Righteousness.

All I've received is absolute rubbish that attempts to explain that it only shows 'God's wrath' or that the people concerned actually deserved their fate......


Since you received only "absolute rubbish", i hope you can bear one more "absolute rubbish" from my side
. Let´s take as example the Canaanites. In a nutshell it goes like this : "After Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, the Israelites were to go to the land of Canaan and clear the land of all Canaanites: men, women and children.“

In order to understand that you need to go back at Genesis. According to Genesis 15:16, God tells Abraham, what would have happened to his descendents centuries later. He explained to him that the Egyptians would have afflicted his progeny for “four hundred years,” and that, finally, they would have achieved deliverance (Genesis 15: 13).

But why so long? The answer can be found again in Genesis : “…the sins of the Amorites is not yet complete” (V. 16).

From these few verses you can understand that God, waited hundreds of years, before the Amorites became degenerate enough to deserve total destruction. And the day came when God could bear their degenerate ways no longer and decreed that their end had come. In other words "Judgement day".

Now back to the Canaanites and how degenerate they became. There is a verse in the book of Leviticus which explains it:

“And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants” (Lev. 18:25).

It really makes someone wonder. How is it possible that people of Canaan reached such an extreme level of degeneracy that, figuratively, the land itself would vomit them out.

For a list of those "abominations" you can find it by reading further in the chapter of the book of leviticus. Therein you find a list other more sexual sins that were common practise among the Canaanites: Sexual activities during a woman’s period (V. 19); Adultery (V. 20); Homosexuality (V. 22); and most revolting of all, bestiality (V. 23).

To make it more clearly:

"One may question that those ancient enemies of Israel were as evil as the Bible claims that they were, but even a superficial glance at Canaanite religion alone ably demonstrates their iniquity. Base sex worship was prevalent, and religious prostitution even commanded; human sacrifice was common; and it was a frequent practice--in an effort to placate their gods--to kill young children and bury them in the foundations of a house or public building at the time of construction: Joshua 6:26 "In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho: he laid the foundation thereof in Abiram his firstborn..."

Howard E. Vos, "An Introduction To Bible Archaeology" Revised ed. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1953) pp. 17-19.

In the Book of Leviticus God warns Israel, to destroy the Canaanites as as not to be influenced by their wicked ways.

Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations ; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 18:24-30)


And, Israel did not follow the order given by God, as they did in many occasions, and did not „utterly“ destroyed the Canaanites and settled in. Basically, they settled beside their remnant for centuries, absorbing their ways and finally Israel became just Canaan.
And this very grave mistake, finally led to untold suffering, because of the great curses that befell them. These curses are listed in the book of Deuteronomy 28, but it also lead, to their final, expulsion from the land.

As someone can understand by reading it in context, God’s aim was simply to protect Israel from influences that would have led to their degeneracy. As the OT among other things describes the relationship between God and the Israelites.
So if God, had not decreed the destruction of the Canaanites, God would have allowed and approved a snare upon the people of Israel. That would mean that Israel would have become like the people of the land and would have invited upon themselves the same fate, just as it happened.

Why it happened? Because, Israel did not heed God’s warning and did embrace the ways of the people of the land. Thus they were severely punished and like the Canaanites they, also, were vomited out by the land.

What i am trying to say is that what, it seems to be an example of harshness and cruelty, is in fact, a perfect example of God’s longsuffering, of His hatred for sin and His final drastic intervention, if sin reaches to a point of no return.

I think that the people who believe these books are not bad people but, for some reason which is usually upbringing (or indoctrination), they totally believe that this is real and they cannot think outside of their beliefs.

Do you actually believe we worshiping books?

I tried not to insult anyone but, to me, you have shown that the majority of you cannot even use your brains anymore. The only way you can think is by your religion...............automatically you think in defence of your religion when, maybe, there is no attack.

The point is that, that argument been asked many times. And certainly you are not the first person or the last. But what is really astonishing is the fact that when someone explains as to why, people just reject it and keep asking the same question. And if someone does not agree with the explanations given by others, then it´s better for other person to do his/her own research, if someone is really interested in.

If someone does not believe in God, then it´s fine. But if someone does not believe in "fairy-tales" as many are saying, then why the same old arguments? Is it because they truly want to know or is it in order to belittle the persons who believe in God?
And to be honest usually those kind of threads, are ending in insults at each other person beliefs.

But rest assured, many of us "believers", asked those kind of questions, and have done our research and found satisfactory answers. The difference is that we asked the questions because we truly wanted to know, and not just because we wanted to prove that the God as mentioned in OT is a war God. Which is the conclusion of the author of the book which you read. Here is an excerpt :


THE GOD OF THE JEWS WAS A WAR GOD! 5,003,743 human beings lost their lives because of God’s army. When you know and remember this, many other things you read about in the Old Testament of the Bible fall into place.

Source



The point of this thread is to ask all Christians - Why are you so fervent about the caring & loving God who appears in some of your scriptures but are silent about this war-mongering, genocidal God that appears in those very same scriptures?


Below is an answer that i gave to a thread long time ago.

AboveTopSecret.com

First you have to understand the Bible. The Bible reveals God's will, the relationship between the Israelites and God, the wonders of Christ and the early history of the Church. The Scriptures are understood to contain historical fact, poetry, idiom, metaphor, simile, moral fable, parable, prophecy, and wisdom literature.

In the OT we see a fearful and wrathful God because, at some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice, to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as “the fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. You can clearly see it throughout the OT. From Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, even with God´s chosen people the Israelites.

The "Original Sin" is this adoption of evil into human nature. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind’s ultimate dilemma.

In the NT we see the solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. That effect was Christ Jesus which He was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God’s participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of hell.( As i reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction.") The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve.

So that is the reason, why you see a fearful and wrathful God in the OT, and a Loving God throughout NT.


Since you left us with a quote, it´s only fair to leave you also with one :


For where your treasure is, there will your heart also be.
Luke 12:34


Peace
edit on 18-7-2011 by Seed76 because: Typo
edit on 18-7-2011 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)
edit on 18-7-2011 by Seed76 because: minor corrections




posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by Seed76
 
If I can be un-civil for a second, I would like to say, That sounds like a lot of puke to me.
What is up with you and are you so holy you have no fear of God?
What makes you think that God will not strike you down like those you find so deserving of being stricken?
Maybe you would like to answer the same questions I asked of Noturtypical.
Are you immune to judgement and if so, how so?



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



If I can be un-civil for a second, I would like to say, That sounds like a lot of puke to me.


What exactly do you mean by "puke".? The point that i made in my reply was that "canaan" got punished for their sins. Israel got punished for their sins also, because they adopt the practices of the "canaan".
In other words both been punished for their sins.


What is up with you and are you so holy you have no fear of God?


Where have i said i do not fear God? And how do you conclude that i am holy?


What makes you think that God will not strike you down like those you find so deserving of being stricken?


I never said that. In fact i said that both "Israel" and "Canaan", got what they deserved. That means that i also will get what i deserve. And certainly i am not thinking otherwise.


Maybe you would like to answer the same questions I asked of Noturtypical.


By all means, my friend. If i can answer those questions, please do ask


Are you immune to judgement and if so, how so?


No one is immune to Judgment. Everyone will be judged according to their deeds, Christians and non Christians alike.

Peace
edit on 18-7-2011 by Seed76 because: typo



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Seed76
 
Looks like you answered my questions. Thanks for doing that.
We all need to keep in mind that these stories are not there to glory in but to make us realize the same thing can happen to us. I may not have read your post closely enough and got the wrong impression of your point.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Looks like you answered my questions. Thanks for doing that.


I hope i have. But if you have other questions, and if i can answer them, then as i said please do so.


We all need to keep in mind that these stories are not there to glory in but to make us realize the same thing can happen to us.


Yes, we need to take those stories as an example. That´s why it´s crucial not to focus only to some parts, but it´s crucial to see the whole picture. The sad thing is that many are focusing only to small portion of it, in order to prove the God is bad and cruel, and they missing the whole point.


I may not have read your post closely enough and got the wrong impression of your point.


Perhaps because, i only short explained it, without going in great detail.

Peace

edit on 18-7-2011 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by JonU2
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I started this whole thread because I had a simple question regarding the Old 7 New Testaments which, to any non-indoctrinated person, shows that the so-called 'God' is either not just one 'God' or has a mulitple-personality disorder.

All I've received is absolute rubbish that attempts to explain that it only shows 'God's wrath' or that the people concerned actually deserved their fate......

I think that the people who believe these books are not bad people but, for some reason which is usually upbringing (or indoctrination), they totally believe that this is real and they cannot think outside of their beliefs.

I really don't care what any of you believe and I didn't come here to change your views.

Reading through these replies you have given me is very, very sad because the majority of you have simply attacked me for daring to question the contents of the Old Testament. Just because I dared to do that, I was talked down to, talked to as if I were a child and belittled for simple questions.

I tried not to insult anyone but, to me, you have shown that the majority of you cannot even use your brains anymore. The only way you can think is by your religion...............automatically you think in defence of your religion when, maybe, there is no attack.

Thank you for all your input - it's been interesting..........



The fact that God commanded the killing of entire nations in the Old Testament has been the subject of harsh criticism from opponents of Christianity for some time. That there was violence in the Old Testament is indisputable. The question is whether Old Testament violence is justifiable and condoned by God. In his bestselling book The God Delusion, atheist Richard Dawkins refers to the God of the Old Testament as "a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser." Journalist Christopher Hitchens complains that the Old Testament contains a warrant for "indiscriminate massacre." Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of "crimes against humanity."

But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of "ethnic cleansing" no different from atrocities committed by the Nazis? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?

God accomplished several things in commanding the Israelite attack on the Canaanites. He first enacted a kind of corporate capital punishment on a people who were deserving of God’s judgment. This destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3-5, 12:2-3) than it was against Canaanite people per se. It was not ethnically motivated. The Canaanites were known to engage in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. In addition, God was able to create the proper religious/historical context that would make sense of a coming Messiah. This Messiah would come to bring salvation to not only Israel, but also Israel’s enemies including Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, and Philistia (Psalm 87:4-6; Isaiah 19:23-25).

When assessing these incidents, it is important to keep in mind the decadent behavior of the people Yahweh had intended for destruction. With reference to the Canaanites author Norman Geisler has commented, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13-16)! The Book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were "disobedient," a phrase that implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God's power (Joshua 2:10-11, 9:9) and could have sought repentance. The example of Rahab and her family is a sure proof that the Canaanites could have avoided their destruction if they had repented before Israel's God (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).

But didn't God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1-3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5, 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.

Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God, and God alone, can give life and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person's life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as "playing God." God is under no obligation to extend anyone's life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.

Third, an argument could be made that it would have been cruel for God to take the lives of all the Canaanites except the infants and children. Without the protection and support of their parents, the infants and small children were likely to face death anyway due to starvation. The chances of survival for an orphan in the ancient Near East were not good.

Finally, and most importantly, God may have provided for the salvation for those infants who would not have otherwise attained salvation if they had lived into adulthood. We must remember that the Canaanites were a barbarous and evil culture. If those infants and children had lived into adulthood, it is very likely they would have turned into something similar to their parents and been condemned to hell after they died. If all infants and young children who die before an age of moral accountability go straight to heaven (as we believe), then those children are in a far better place than if God had allowed them to live and grow to maturity in a depraved culture.

Surely the issue of God commanding violence in the Old Testament is difficult. However, we must remember that God sees things from an eternal perspective, and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). The Apostle Paul tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). While it is true that God's holy character demands that sin be punished, His grace and mercy remain extended to those who are willing to repent and be saved. The Canaanite destruction provides us with a sober reminder that while our God is gracious and merciful, He is also a God of holiness and wrath.

Source



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Seed76
 


I really appreciate your in-depth explanation. Thanks a lot.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That's what "penal substitutionary atonement" is JM.
As in the theory of . . ?
The doctrines of men?
There would be no need for a "doctrine" if it was clearly spelled out in the Bible, which it is not.
Giving the theory a name and acting like ". . .Of Course!" is not legitimate back-up for me, sorry.


You mentioned you were a Seventh Day Adventist correct? Let's look at Penal Substitutionary Atonement:


Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.


Theopedia.com


Christ died for OUR sins, in OUR place, bearing the punishment WE deserve. And God imputed or credited Christ's righteousness to us in the process. Let's look at the statement of faith for the SDA church:


4. Son:

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)


Adventist.org


So the SDA position on Christ is exactly what I also said, that Christ died "for our sins AND IN OUR PLACE"

Let's look at the SDA position on Soteriology:


10. Experience of Salvation:

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God....


I stated the exact same thing, to which you objected. God made Christ sin, so that we would be made in His righteousness. I quoted the SAME verse. Continuing..


Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example....


"As substitute", what I also said to which you objected. Attained by "faith" highlighted above. Continuing...



This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace...


"Grace", God's gift of unmerited favor to those who believe. Continuing...



Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life....


We are justified by faith, in Christ, as the propitiation for our sins, He bears all our sin and God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. Then we are led by the Holy Spirit for good works for God's glory and our joy. We are not saved by our works, but saved to do works. I've stated all these previously in this thread and you've objected. Continuing...


Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation NOW and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)


Adventist.org


We have assurance of salvation right "NOW", and in the judgement, I also included the first part of 2 Peter that said "we are partakers in the divine nature", all of which you objected to in this thread. Most of the verses above I have previously linked when pressed by you to support my "cult" theology, and called them "doctrines of men".

Is mine AND the Adventist's theology Biblically wrong?



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
No I am not ashamed and you are using that to deflect from your own religion.



Hardly, no deflection. I asked you politely several times to try and figure out what form of Christianity you subscribed to where your beliefs basically rejected the foundation beliefs of the nature and purpose of Christ, atonement through Him, and His standing in the place for us when God judged sin at Calvary.

It was a simple question to understand who I was talking to.



I have said it over and over and the long time posters on this forum know it well and I have done whole threads on it more than once.


If I knew I wouldn't have asked. Just sayin..


I pretty much have my own slant on religion but the church I am actually a member of is the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I don't say that so much because I am not endorsing it, or encouraging others to join it, and am not the best example of one of its adherents. I am fourth generation SDA, meaning my great grandmother, a Prussian immigrant, was SDA, and handed it down to her daughter, and from her to her son, who is my father. So it is kind of in the family like how the Mormon religion is with a lot of Mormons.


And after reading their organizations statements of faith I agree, you're rogue of their beliefs... which I share with them. And you called me a member of a "cult" in another thread.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 



What is the baseline for the Christian religion? Attention: It's a trick question ...


I'll just be frank with you, I'm losing my patience. Do you have a specific question to ask? The chicanery is getting tiresome, sorry.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Is this one of the "fundamental beliefs" you are talking about?

. . .and His standing in the place for us when God judged sin at Calvary.

Do you have a verse for that.
Last time you said, "oh it's more than one verse. . ." and gave a bunch of verses about a general salvation but none that had to do with a personal substitutionary death in payment for our sins.
So, where is the verse for the above quoted statement form your more recent posting?
I want one that states what you just said, not one about how sin was judged, in a general sense.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And after reading their organizations statements of faith I agree, you're rogue of their beliefs... which I share with them. And you called me a member of a "cult" in another thread.
No, you got that wrong. I said, sect.
I told you what church I belong to, so you could reciprocate and see what sort of sect you belong to.
I mean the dispensationalist religion. That's the sect I am talking about. You belong to a church which follows dispensationalism. That is not normal and never even existed a hundred and fifty years ago.



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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Well, late at night and I guess everyone is in bed, so while waiting for a reply to my last post, I will go ahead and post a passage which supports my view, which is; the New Covenant, replaces the Old Covenant which was, sin, kill an animal as atonement, later, repeat the same. The N.C. is, God will right His Law upon your heart. What that means is instead of constantly sinning and then asking forgiveness, you stop sinning.
Here is a verse that explains some of this concept, from the end of Revelation:
Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!

Not, send their robes off to the launderer, but work on them, themselves. This is what is expected and demanded by God to enter His Kingdom, which is to remove the love of evil from your heart to where you are not inclined to commit sins.
edit on 19-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Is this one of the "fundamental beliefs" you are talking about?

. . .and His standing in the place for us when God judged sin at Calvary.

Do you have a verse for that.
Last time you said, "oh it's more than one verse. . ." and gave a bunch of verses about a general salvation but none that had to do with a personal substitutionary death in payment for our sins.
So, where is the verse for the above quoted statement form your more recent posting?
I want one that states what you just said, not one about how sin was judged, in a general sense.




What are you talking about in a "general sense"? Random sin that wasn't for anyone in particular? What is this "general salvation"? He died four our sins, all of them. How many of your sins were yet future when Christ was hanging on the cross?

ALL OF THEM WERE.


He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross FOR OUR SINS and IN OUR PLACE, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary IN OUR BEHALF.


Adventist.org


Sure, I'll post yet more verses you will not read, why not?


Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US."

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered unto you, first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died FOR OUR SINS according to the scripture; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare OUR SINS in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."



Did Christ die for "OUR sins", or sin in a "general sense"?



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And after reading their organizations statements of faith I agree, you're rogue of their beliefs... which I share with them. And you called me a member of a "cult" in another thread.


No, you got that wrong. I said, sect.


Entirely false, either your memory leaves something to be desired or your lying. You said I was in "a cult" and even suggested steps to freeing from the bondage of said "cult".


I told you what church I belong to, so you could reciprocate and see what sort of sect you belong to.


And I showed you from adventist.org that there is no controversy in the things I've said and what your particular "sect" affirms as Biblical Christianity. They even included most of the verses I've posted for you in this thread.


I mean the dispensationalist religion. That's the sect I am talking about. You belong to a church which follows dispensationalism. That is not normal and never even existed a hundred and fifty years ago.


First of all, there is no such thing as dispensationalist "religion". Secondly, Paul wrote Romans in the first century AD, he hammers away for 3 CHAPTERS, (Romans 9,10,&11), that God is not finished yet with the Jews or Israel. I apologize if this offends you, but I place more trust in Paul and Romans as the definitive and most comprehensive book on Christian doctrine. It's beautiful how the Holy Spirit anticipates every heresy that will ever arise in the future and addresses them preemptively throughout the scriptures. "Replacement Theology" is just that, a heresy.






posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Well, late at night and I guess everyone is in bed, so while waiting for a reply to my last post, I will go ahead and post a passage which supports my view, which is; the New Covenant, replaces the Old Covenant which was, sin, kill an animal as atonement, later, repeat the same.


Sorry, sins were never "atoned" for in the Old Covenant, they were only "covered". (the Hebrew word for atonement, kaphir, means "covering") That's why there was "no man" (Christ's words) in heaven before Christ, the righteous dead went to "Abraham's Bosom". When Christ made atonement for sin, not just covering for sins then men could enter the presence of God in heaven.


The N.C. is, God will right His Law upon your heart. What that means is instead of constantly sinning and then asking forgiveness, you stop sinning.


No it's not, that means we live by the Spirit rather than the letter of the law. We live and repent by the conviction of the Holy Spirit residing within our hearts. We will never stop sinning completely until we receive a glorified body and are freed from our flesh.



Galatians 5:16-18 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

1 john 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

Romans 7:14-25 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."


(In case you were wondering, Paul wrote the passage above AFTER he was born again.) Sorry bub, we're sinners saved by grace.



Here is a verse that explains some of this concept, from the end of Revelation:
Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!

Not, send their robes off to the launderer, but work on them, themselves. This is what is expected and demanded by God to enter His Kingdom, which is to remove the love of evil from your heart to where you are not inclined to commit sins.


Umm, the shed "blood of the Lamb" of God, Jesus Christ is what "washes our robes". We are not saved by works, we are saved by grace through faith. Previous verses in Revelation that tell you where our "washing" happens, and by whom:

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."


That's what "justification" means, not that we are righteous, but we are declared righteous already by Christ's shed blood. His blood is what cleanses us from our unrighteousness. We are NOT saved by works, but by faith. True faith will produce works (fruit), but that's a process called "sanctification" that occurs as a work of the HOLY SPIRIT in our lives and in an ongoing process.

If you claim you have no sin sir you are deceived. And that's a form of pride and self-righteousness, the worst sin of all.



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Did Christ die for "OUR sins", or sin in a "general sense"?
The verses you gave in this post do not show Jesus dying for individual sins, or as payment, or as our substitute.



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 06:07 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"Replacement Theology" is just that, a heresy.
Heresy according to your sect which you decline to name.
Can you find that heresy in the lists of heresies in Church history?
Actually it has always been Christian doctrine and is today, except for in dispensationalist sects.
edit on 19-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Sorry, sins were never "atoned" for in the Old Covenant. . .Christ made atonement for sin. . .
Funny, there are over 130 verses in the Old Testament with the word atone or atonement in them.
Where is the verse for you claim of "Christ atonement sin"? I get zero results with that search.
Maybe you have a verse that I can not find.



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 06:46 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
That is in the KJV, in the newer translations 1:5 says, released, instead of washed.
In 7:14, "They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!" still has them doing the washing, as I stated in my earlier post.

We are NOT saved by works, but by faith. True faith will produce works (fruit), but that's a process called "sanctification" that occurs as a work of the HOLY SPIRIT in our lives and in an ongoing process.
This verse would seem to indicate otherwise.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If you claim you have no sin sir you are deceived. And that's a form of pride and self-righteousness, the worst sin of all.
What? Worse than the unpardonable sun?
edit on 19-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)





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