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I started this whole thread because I had a simple question regarding the Old 7 New Testaments which, to any non-indoctrinated person, shows that the so-called 'God' is either not just one 'God' or has a mulitple-personality disorder.
All I've received is absolute rubbish that attempts to explain that it only shows 'God's wrath' or that the people concerned actually deserved their fate......
“And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants” (Lev. 18:25).
Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations ; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 18:24-30)
I think that the people who believe these books are not bad people but, for some reason which is usually upbringing (or indoctrination), they totally believe that this is real and they cannot think outside of their beliefs.
I tried not to insult anyone but, to me, you have shown that the majority of you cannot even use your brains anymore. The only way you can think is by your religion...............automatically you think in defence of your religion when, maybe, there is no attack.
THE GOD OF THE JEWS WAS A WAR GOD! 5,003,743 human beings lost their lives because of God’s army. When you know and remember this, many other things you read about in the Old Testament of the Bible fall into place.
The point of this thread is to ask all Christians - Why are you so fervent about the caring & loving God who appears in some of your scriptures but are silent about this war-mongering, genocidal God that appears in those very same scriptures?
First you have to understand the Bible. The Bible reveals God's will, the relationship between the Israelites and God, the wonders of Christ and the early history of the Church. The Scriptures are understood to contain historical fact, poetry, idiom, metaphor, simile, moral fable, parable, prophecy, and wisdom literature.
In the OT we see a fearful and wrathful God because, at some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice, to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as “the fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. You can clearly see it throughout the OT. From Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, even with God´s chosen people the Israelites.
The "Original Sin" is this adoption of evil into human nature. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind’s ultimate dilemma.
In the NT we see the solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. That effect was Christ Jesus which He was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God’s participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of hell.( As i reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction.") The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve.
So that is the reason, why you see a fearful and wrathful God in the OT, and a Loving God throughout NT.
For where your treasure is, there will your heart also be.
Luke 12:34
If I can be un-civil for a second, I would like to say, That sounds like a lot of puke to me.
What is up with you and are you so holy you have no fear of God?
What makes you think that God will not strike you down like those you find so deserving of being stricken?
Maybe you would like to answer the same questions I asked of Noturtypical.
Are you immune to judgement and if so, how so?
Looks like you answered my questions. Thanks for doing that.
We all need to keep in mind that these stories are not there to glory in but to make us realize the same thing can happen to us.
I may not have read your post closely enough and got the wrong impression of your point.
Originally posted by JonU2
reply to post by NOTurTypical
I started this whole thread because I had a simple question regarding the Old 7 New Testaments which, to any non-indoctrinated person, shows that the so-called 'God' is either not just one 'God' or has a mulitple-personality disorder.
All I've received is absolute rubbish that attempts to explain that it only shows 'God's wrath' or that the people concerned actually deserved their fate......
I think that the people who believe these books are not bad people but, for some reason which is usually upbringing (or indoctrination), they totally believe that this is real and they cannot think outside of their beliefs.
I really don't care what any of you believe and I didn't come here to change your views.
Reading through these replies you have given me is very, very sad because the majority of you have simply attacked me for daring to question the contents of the Old Testament. Just because I dared to do that, I was talked down to, talked to as if I were a child and belittled for simple questions.
I tried not to insult anyone but, to me, you have shown that the majority of you cannot even use your brains anymore. The only way you can think is by your religion...............automatically you think in defence of your religion when, maybe, there is no attack.
Thank you for all your input - it's been interesting..........
The fact that God commanded the killing of entire nations in the Old Testament has been the subject of harsh criticism from opponents of Christianity for some time. That there was violence in the Old Testament is indisputable. The question is whether Old Testament violence is justifiable and condoned by God. In his bestselling book The God Delusion, atheist Richard Dawkins refers to the God of the Old Testament as "a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser." Journalist Christopher Hitchens complains that the Old Testament contains a warrant for "indiscriminate massacre." Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of "crimes against humanity."
But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of "ethnic cleansing" no different from atrocities committed by the Nazis? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?
God accomplished several things in commanding the Israelite attack on the Canaanites. He first enacted a kind of corporate capital punishment on a people who were deserving of God’s judgment. This destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3-5, 12:2-3) than it was against Canaanite people per se. It was not ethnically motivated. The Canaanites were known to engage in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. In addition, God was able to create the proper religious/historical context that would make sense of a coming Messiah. This Messiah would come to bring salvation to not only Israel, but also Israel’s enemies including Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, and Philistia (Psalm 87:4-6; Isaiah 19:23-25).
When assessing these incidents, it is important to keep in mind the decadent behavior of the people Yahweh had intended for destruction. With reference to the Canaanites author Norman Geisler has commented, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”
It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13-16)! The Book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were "disobedient," a phrase that implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God's power (Joshua 2:10-11, 9:9) and could have sought repentance. The example of Rahab and her family is a sure proof that the Canaanites could have avoided their destruction if they had repented before Israel's God (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).
But didn't God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1-3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5, 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.
Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God, and God alone, can give life and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person's life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as "playing God." God is under no obligation to extend anyone's life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.
Third, an argument could be made that it would have been cruel for God to take the lives of all the Canaanites except the infants and children. Without the protection and support of their parents, the infants and small children were likely to face death anyway due to starvation. The chances of survival for an orphan in the ancient Near East were not good.
Finally, and most importantly, God may have provided for the salvation for those infants who would not have otherwise attained salvation if they had lived into adulthood. We must remember that the Canaanites were a barbarous and evil culture. If those infants and children had lived into adulthood, it is very likely they would have turned into something similar to their parents and been condemned to hell after they died. If all infants and young children who die before an age of moral accountability go straight to heaven (as we believe), then those children are in a far better place than if God had allowed them to live and grow to maturity in a depraved culture.
Surely the issue of God commanding violence in the Old Testament is difficult. However, we must remember that God sees things from an eternal perspective, and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). The Apostle Paul tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). While it is true that God's holy character demands that sin be punished, His grace and mercy remain extended to those who are willing to repent and be saved. The Canaanite destruction provides us with a sober reminder that while our God is gracious and merciful, He is also a God of holiness and wrath.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
As in the theory of . . ?
That's what "penal substitutionary atonement" is JM.
The doctrines of men?
There would be no need for a "doctrine" if it was clearly spelled out in the Bible, which it is not.
Giving the theory a name and acting like ". . .Of Course!" is not legitimate back-up for me, sorry.
Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
10. Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God....
Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example....
This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace...
Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life....
Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation NOW and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
No I am not ashamed and you are using that to deflect from your own religion.
I have said it over and over and the long time posters on this forum know it well and I have done whole threads on it more than once.
I pretty much have my own slant on religion but the church I am actually a member of is the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I don't say that so much because I am not endorsing it, or encouraging others to join it, and am not the best example of one of its adherents. I am fourth generation SDA, meaning my great grandmother, a Prussian immigrant, was SDA, and handed it down to her daughter, and from her to her son, who is my father. So it is kind of in the family like how the Mormon religion is with a lot of Mormons.
What is the baseline for the Christian religion? Attention: It's a trick question ...
. . .and His standing in the place for us when God judged sin at Calvary.
No, you got that wrong. I said, sect.
And after reading their organizations statements of faith I agree, you're rogue of their beliefs... which I share with them. And you called me a member of a "cult" in another thread.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Is this one of the "fundamental beliefs" you are talking about?
. . .and His standing in the place for us when God judged sin at Calvary.
Do you have a verse for that.
Last time you said, "oh it's more than one verse. . ." and gave a bunch of verses about a general salvation but none that had to do with a personal substitutionary death in payment for our sins.
So, where is the verse for the above quoted statement form your more recent posting?
I want one that states what you just said, not one about how sin was judged, in a general sense.
He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross FOR OUR SINS and IN OUR PLACE, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary IN OUR BEHALF.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
And after reading their organizations statements of faith I agree, you're rogue of their beliefs... which I share with them. And you called me a member of a "cult" in another thread.
No, you got that wrong. I said, sect.
I told you what church I belong to, so you could reciprocate and see what sort of sect you belong to.
I mean the dispensationalist religion. That's the sect I am talking about. You belong to a church which follows dispensationalism. That is not normal and never even existed a hundred and fifty years ago.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Well, late at night and I guess everyone is in bed, so while waiting for a reply to my last post, I will go ahead and post a passage which supports my view, which is; the New Covenant, replaces the Old Covenant which was, sin, kill an animal as atonement, later, repeat the same.
The N.C. is, God will right His Law upon your heart. What that means is instead of constantly sinning and then asking forgiveness, you stop sinning.
Here is a verse that explains some of this concept, from the end of Revelation:
Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!
Not, send their robes off to the launderer, but work on them, themselves. This is what is expected and demanded by God to enter His Kingdom, which is to remove the love of evil from your heart to where you are not inclined to commit sins.
The verses you gave in this post do not show Jesus dying for individual sins, or as payment, or as our substitute.
Did Christ die for "OUR sins", or sin in a "general sense"?
Heresy according to your sect which you decline to name.
"Replacement Theology" is just that, a heresy.
Funny, there are over 130 verses in the Old Testament with the word atone or atonement in them.
Sorry, sins were never "atoned" for in the Old Covenant. . .Christ made atonement for sin. . .
That is in the KJV, in the newer translations 1:5 says, released, instead of washed.
Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
This verse would seem to indicate otherwise.
We are NOT saved by works, but by faith. True faith will produce works (fruit), but that's a process called "sanctification" that occurs as a work of the HOLY SPIRIT in our lives and in an ongoing process.
What? Worse than the unpardonable sun?
If you claim you have no sin sir you are deceived. And that's a form of pride and self-righteousness, the worst sin of all.