'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

reply to post by PronoEast


Your completely right, thats one of the hardest things, for me especially is turn the other cheek, let them strike the other.

How could you be blameless if you've done the same thing. Remove the plank from your own eye.

The more you actively contend for it however, the more the devil will try to get the best of you.

Originally posted by Logman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman

 

Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?

Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.

Kind of like how Jesus says the only route to the Father is through him. A point I bring up with Christians if motivated enough to bother is that is it then true that in the millennia before Jesus not one soul found God (if one does exist)? In all the thousands of years of civilisation, millions of loving and caring individuals never found God and yet a mere man appears and suddenly there's a path? It makes no sense.

The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No he didn't. He cherry-picked a few random verses without any context to push an agenda.

really? He went through the WHOLE book, but only gave a few examples...

I think you're the cherry picker here...and trying to push your agenda.

Yes, my agenda is both accuracy and precision. The OP may have read the whole book, but He failed to present or account for the attributes of God beyond His wrath against disobedience. Excluding all His other attributes as presented in the same Bible, I.e., righteousness, holiness, justice, mercy, grace et cetra is by definition "cherry-picking".

Christians don't deny God's wrath.

Originally posted by PronoEast

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by EspyderMan

 

Yes, God is unforgiving. Not because He is not good, but because for Him to give a nod and wink to sin would compromise His holiness and righteousness. (That's why I posted the quote from Socrates)

If God forgives sin and unrighteousness freely He compromises His perfect holiness and justice. How to deal with our sin without compromising His natue and character is God's greatest dilemma.

The answer is "Penal Substitutionary Atonement".

Please be careful. It's not that God is unforgiving.

The Bible teaches us that God withholds forgiveness towards people who are not repentant (2 Kings 24:4 and Lamentations 3:42). God is able to do this because of His very nature: He is sinless. He is perfect. He is holy. He simply will not tolerate sin. Paul warns those who choose to transgress God’s law in Romans 2:5, “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” But there are also times in the Old Testament when God forgave those who did not seek His mercy and forgiveness. He did so for His own purposes and in accordance with His perfect will.

I know man, that's why I was precise by saying "freely".

Originally posted by monkcaw
Christians have definitely not been silent on this issue. The accusation of a dichotomy between the "evil" Old Testament God and the "loving" New Testament God is an old snare that continues to trap those all too willing to find an excuse for their unbelief.

The explanation is straightforward, there's no mystery to it especially if you understand two basic Christian principles:

1. Christians do not worship the Bible.

2. God does not change His mind.

The Bible did not float down to us from Heaven. It is not God's word-for-word dictation to human kind, if it were we would worship it as divine. Thankfully, it is not. This frees us from literalism which can lead us into all sorts of errors. Take the OP for example...if Christians were slaves to the ink on the pages of the Bible we'd have no choice but to accept the monstrous duality of God. Luckily we are not bound to ink. This is especially important to note when reading the Old Testament when it says God "hates" this or that, is "jealous" or otherwise acting like a human.

The Old Testament is better read for what it says about us rather than God. It does it's part in showing the progression of our understanding of God and Heavenly things, how our forefathers perceived it anyway. And we read of terrible acts of brutality, of God commanding others to kill, but in truth none of this was from God:

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Are you forgetting the great errors of these early men? How quick they were to turn away from God and devolve into barbarism? If all this bloodshed was ordered by God, why didn't it please Him? Why the terrible judgements in the wilderness? Why the need for a second covenant? Jesus preaches of peace and love but the Old Testament says that God ordered genocides, rapes and murders? Did God change his mind about the sanctity of human life? No.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins... In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

But much of the Old Testament concerns these Laws of burnt offerings and sacrifices...did God institute these traditions only to turn around and disavow them? Of course not!

The truth is God did not order his people to rape and murder. God did not create the deadening and convoluted system of burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin. These we can all attribute to the obtuse and carnal way the early Isrealites understood God. Our evolved understanding of God as Love must prevail over the vulgar perceptions of the Old Testament because they are shadowy and dark. Since then we've had God's own Son set us free from such bondage.

edit on 16-7-2011 by monkcaw because: grammar

Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.

The disciples also took the commands of Christ (which are part of the Bible) literally. Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make more disciples in Matthew 28:19-20. In Acts 2 and following, we find that the disciples took Jesus' command literally and went throughout the known world of that time preaching the gospel of Christ and telling them to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Just as the disciples took Jesus’ words literally, so must we. How else can we be sure of our salvation if we do not believe Him when He says He came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), pay the penalty for our sin (Matthew 26:28), and provide eternal life (John 6:54)?

Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)

Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely.

If we read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, we will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some minor differences. However, a difference is not a contradiction. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

We often receive questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!” Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer. However, it is our contention that there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error. There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.” Most people simply get their ammunition from these places; they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and websites available that refute every one of these supposed errors. The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer. Many “Bible attackers” are even aware of these answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

So, what are we to do when someone approaches us with an alleged Bible error? 1) Prayerfully study the Scriptures and see if there is a simple solution. 2) Do some research using some of the fine Bible commentaries, “Bible defense” books, and biblical research websites. 3) Ask our pastors/church leaders to see if they can find a solution. 4) If there is still no clear answer after steps 1), 2), and 3) are followed, we trust God that His Word is truth and that there is a solution that just simply has not been realized yet (2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

Originally posted by PronoEast
I've said in a previous thread that Christians are ultimately responsible for being representatives of Christ. If Christians act like jerks and are full of sarcasm, how do you expect to receive any respect? I mean not even on a theological level, just on a conversational level. That's just not right. Even if people disagree and present arguments that seem to be unrelated, offensive, or even straight-up wrong, aren't Christians supposed to be bigger than that? I think some people need to re-examine their approach to these discussions in general.

Having said that, as I was reading in 1 Corinthians 2 this morning, Paul talks a lot about the Holy Spirit and how He helps in understanding, gaining wisdom, and answering those questions that seem to be very confusing and oxymoronical (yeah, I made that word up). The fact of the matter is that the Holy Spirit is received when an individual is born again and accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So as hard as it may be for some people to believe or understand what the Bible says, its probably because you don't have the Spirit working inside of you to comprehend these sort of things.

I know what you're thinking and I know what it sounds like. "So, you're telling me that unless I become a Christian I can't get answers from God?" No, that's not what I'm saying exactly. God can choose to enlighten anyone. But the Holy Spirit is a very separate part of the Trinity in its' own right. Unless you're a born again Christian, the best way I can explain is that you don't have the full-on access that the Holy Spirit gives people.

I may very well have made things even more complicated for some people. You may be even more confused then before you read my post now lol. But in all seriousness, everyone should definitely questions things, seek Truth, and search for answers. I mean, I'm pretty sure the God of the whole universe wouldn't have it any other way right? I doubt He's very insecure. He's probably pretty confident in the result of your pursuits for Truth. So have at it!

Let me get back to reading, I'm only on page 3. Bear with me guys.

How would I know I am filled with the Spirit? I have only experienced once a powerful light filling my body and never again. Is it possible to lose the Holy Spirit? Some people say "the Spirit told me..." but I've never heard a voice. I don't experience anything out of the ordinary that I am sure is God's power. Only once have I experienced it. I used to experience invisible stigmata quite often, but its become rarer and rarer and I'm concerned I have not been sealed as God's.

reply to post by 547000


You cannot loose your salvation, they only way it would be possible is whats called the unpardonable sin which is to blaspheme the holy spirit, this would have to be done all the way till death in other words never accepting salvation in spite of obvious sign's from God,

And when you are saved, by believing in your heart and confessing with the mouth, as it says, you are sealed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

reply to post by PronoEast


There are actually quite a few verses in both the Christian and Jewish testaments that support an unconscious afterlife, at least until Judgement Day. Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, Isaac Newton and John Calvin all pointed to scripture and supported "soul sleep".

When one understands the Hebrew concept of "soul" it makes sense. Our modern idea of an immortal separate soul isn't biblical but originates from Platonism. The Hebrew concept of the soul or Nephesh is a union of Neshama and Aphar, breath and dust. When someone dies, the breath returns to G-d for it is part of G-d, and the dust returns to the earth. The Nephesh in a sense ceases to exist.

Check out Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

John 5: 28-30

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Thessalonians 4:13-18

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Sheol for the ancient Hebrews was a state of unconsciousness, at least until they came in contact with the Persians, and even then the major sects, the Sadducees and Pharisees still believed in the same basic idea. Their big argument was over resurrection, which the Sadducees did not believe in. (Note: The Book of Daniel and the Ketuvim (Writings) did not enter Jewish canon until after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE. Many people don't know that and it plays a big role into why the sects believed the way they did.)

When you look at all of the prophecies of salvation, Jewish or Christian, its about an awakening to salvation, with new bodies in the World to Come or the New Jerusalem in Revelations. Many people miss that, its like the Pearly Gates mistake. The gates of pearl are the New Jerusalem gates (Revelation 21:21), not the gates of the Heavens.

Does this create a paradox? It could depending on interpretations and translations. The two major ones being the parable with Lazarus and Jesus' comments about paradise while on the cross. The latter is much easier to solve, if the translation is Jesus saying "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise". A number of scholars accept the story of Dives and Lazarus as parable.

There may be an alternative explanation though, one I favor, which is somewhat mind warping for the average person.

We know from Revelations that "Paradise" is in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2)

We also know beyond the walls its not a happy place,

Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Revelations 22:14-15

Beyond the pearl gates and the walls of New Jerusalem, I can imagine those in the wastes thirst for the Waters of Life from the paradise within the city. So right there you have Paradise, a place of comfort, and outside a wasteland like Gehenna, of suffering.

Now for the "today" line. Someone who "sleeps" in death does not experience time. You could die, thousands of years on earth could pass, but for you it would seem instant, meaning dead one instant and Judgement Day the next instant. So from your perspective it would be today.

reply to post by EnigmaticDill

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You need to look at that verse again.
Paul is quoting from Joel and in that verse it says, of those God has chosen.
Same thing with the other verse you quote, you need to notice the stipulation that it is only about those God has already chosen, not just anyone and you can not be so sure God has already chosen you or not.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That is so true.

It is going to be an interesting ride, no matter what your belief structure is at this time,,,,
We all know something Big is coming. Fireworks or not. (even if things are always better with fireworks)

Maybe this awaited Event will be

Agreement.

For once humanity comes together and agrees,,
we have to work together to save ourselves and possibly the entire Earth.

It is Time for Humanity to Grow Up.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by EnigmaticDill

 

Same thing with the other verse you quote, you need to notice the stipulation that it is only about those God has already chosen, not just anyone and you can not be so sure God has already chosen you or not.

What kind of Predestination is this?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen23
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by EnigmaticDill

Same thing with the other verse you quote, you need to notice the stipulation that it is only about those God has already chosen, not just anyone and you can not be so sure God has already chosen you or not.

What kind of Predestination is this?

As in what brand?
I'm not a Calvinist if that's your question.

Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us.

reply to post by PronoEast


You're kidding? How old is planet earth, and homo sapiens?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AllIsOne

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

I'm not sure I understand the "modern" qualifier.

Christian apologetics started with Paul the Apostle. I'm just assuming that you're not his age ...

In that context, yes, I'm an apologist.

I'm confused: in one of your own threads you declare the bible a steamy pile, and a few days later you declare to be an Apologist? Can you explain that?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

A god that loves us unconditionally??? It appears to me that there are conditions after all...

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Paul is quoting from Joel and in that verse it says, of those God has chosen.
Same thing with the other verse you quote, you need to notice the stipulation that it is only about those God has already chosen, not just anyone and you can not be so sure God has already chosen you or not.

That's gotta suck if you're not one who is chosen.

Originally posted by AllIsOne

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AllIsOne

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

I'm not sure I understand the "modern" qualifier.

Christian apologetics started with Paul the Apostle. I'm just assuming that you're not his age ...

In that context, yes, I'm an apologist.

I'm confused: in one of your own threads you declare the bible a steamy pile, and a few days later you declare to be an Apologist? Can you explain that?

Sure, I'd love to.

You most likely have me confused with another member.

reply to post by JonU2


Yes, you are absolutely right. The problem is that the "god" of the Old Testament is a False, Impostor god, pretending to be the Real, Joyful God of the New Testament. Please see the thread "There Are Two Gods".

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Tib50
reply to post by JonU2

 

Yes, you are absolutely right. The problem is that the "god" of the Old Testament is a False, Impostor god, pretending to be the Real, Joyful God of the New Testament. Please see the thread "There Are Two Gods".

www.abovetopsecret.com...

there are alot more than two. lol
for example, there's apollyon in revelation 9, who is apollo.
i say, the best way to solve all this is to take a nice concordance, such as strongs concordance and read the entire old testament all over again in the original language. look at the original words, one at a time, in their original language and the roots of those words. then when you start to notice things, do a comparative analysis with other cultural books, such as the ugaritic writings, the akkadian writings, the sumerian writings, the babylonian writings, the egyptian writings, line them all up and check your references. the bible will become something you never imagined it could be, because we're so accustomed to believing the interpretations of people who have passed, and only their interpretations, we become our own worst enemies and rob ourselves of very interesting history and knowledge.

here is an online strongs (and several other research databases)/ to use it, just type in a word from the bible you want to research or just start at the beginning: type in Genesis 1. press the button.
www.eliyah.com...

reply to post by jmdewey60

Same thing with the other verse you quote, you need to notice the stipulation that it is only about those God has already chosen, not just anyone and you can not be so sure God has already chosen you or not.

It could be argued that if a person is being drawn to God and to Christ for redemption that means they have been chosen. (John 15:16, Romans 3:10-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Romans 10:9)

And the definitive verse:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ~ John 6:37