'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

I have read many posts on this site from Christians who, too often, make quotes from the Old Testament(OT), rather than adding to a debate. The quotes that are used are 99.99999% describing 'God' as a caring, loving deity.

I know the OT. I was raised as a Catholic and studied it. I have not been to church since I was 14, that was 35 years ago. The only thing that was ever focused on in church were the parts that described 'God' as this caring, loving deity.

I have recently read a book entitled 'Mousetrails' by an elderly man named Keith Stephens, who, like me, was raised as a Christian and could never understand why people didn't talk about the actual contents of the Old Testament.

Keith had lived a non-religious life, working and raising three children with his loving wife. When a medical event prompted emergency surgery, he read the OT as it was the only book available at the time. Let me quote his words:

'When everything in the house had been read, and only the Christian Bible remained, my first thought was, “No way. I’m not reading that thing!”
But boredom finally got the best of me, so I started at the beginning knowing there was plenty of time. After the first few chapters, something began to tug at the back of my mind. The more I read, the more the slaughter bothered me.
God stood by while Moses ordered the Levites to ...go up and
down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your
friends and neighbors!”
One of the most famous battles in the Bible was ordered by the God of the Jews, and Israel followed instructions
...by putting to the sword ALL living creatures in the city; MEN AND
WOMEN, YOUNG AND OLD, as well as oxen, sheep and asses.
So I began to wonder how many people died in this carnage.
Other things bothered me too, but soon it was the day for surgery and
recovery and the time for getting my life back to normal.'

After recovery, Keith spent over ten years studying the Old Testament using the following rules:
(A) take the Bible exactly as it is written;
(B) do not change a letter or a syllable;
(C) do not add facts that are not in the Bible;
(D) do not believe one sentence or paragraph and discount
another;
(E) read it as it is, a window to the past - the greatest ancient
history book ever written.

His findings were astonishing!!!

His conservative estimate is that 'God' was responsible for the violent deaths of 6.5 million people in the Old Testament. These figures are completely explained, figures for his approximations are given for every city, town or village that is massacred.

Also, Keith makes the point about the 'God' of Genesis being completely different from the 'God' of further books......could there have been more than one 'God'? (I believe there was, BTW).

The point of this thread is to ask all Christians - Why are you so fervent about the caring & loving God who appears in some of your scriptures but are silent about this war-mongering, genocidal God that appears in those very same scriptures?

I leave you with a quote:

When you march up to attack a city, first offer it terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you, all the
people to be found in it shall serve you in FORCED LABOR. But
if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you battle,
lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it into your
hand, put every male in it to the sword; but the women and children
and livestock and all else in it that is worth plundering you may
take as your booty. That is how you shall deal with any city at a
considerable distance from you, WHICH DOES NOT BELONG TO
THE PEOPLES OF THIS LAND. But in the cities which the Lord,
your God, is giving you as your heritage, YOU SHALL NOT LEAVE
A SINGLE SOUL ALIVE. You must doom them all AS THE LORD,
YOUR GOD, HAS COMMANDED YOU.
(Dueteronomy 20:10)

Well done, S&F from a fierce unbeliever . As a matter of fact yes, that god was some kind of a Stalin - Hitler - Pol Pot - Bush family interbreed creepy evil monster. With a tremendously huge taste for blood if I may say so. We are so lucky Nietzche killed him eventually Waiting for the pack of pharisees to jump in...

I leave you with a quote:

When you march up to attack a city, first offer it terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you, all the
people to be found in it shall serve you in FORCED LABOR. But
if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you battle,
lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it into your
hand, put every male in it to the sword; but the women and children
and livestock and all else in it that is worth plundering you may
take as your booty. That is how you shall deal with any city at a
considerable distance from you, WHICH DOES NOT BELONG TO
THE PEOPLES OF THIS LAND. But in the cities which the Lord,
your God, is giving you as your heritage, YOU SHALL NOT LEAVE
A SINGLE SOUL ALIVE. You must doom them all AS THE LORD,
YOUR GOD, HAS COMMANDED YOU.
(Dueteronomy 20:10)

Kind of sums up the actions of the moder day Jewish state of Israel! Or at least where it's going.

It did always amaze me that many Christians forget that their God is murderous, jealous, henious and masogynistic. The counter argument i hear is that Jesus somehow fixed all that and that the OT is historical. It's the NT that really matters.

Personally, I think that's a total cop out! You're still worshipping a diety that gives you these commandments saying you can't rape, steal or murder but then commanded and allowed those action. Encouraged them even.

I too believe there are different Gods portrayed in the Bible. In the original Hebew version the name of 'God' is not mentioned, does not speak and the Elohim (plural) are the ones giving the commands.

Makes you think.

Yes. Read the entire book, don't make excuses for the stuff that is bad. Then you can say that you have made up your mind. There is actually research that shows that atheists know more about the bible then Christians. (1) Perhaps they actually read the books, and haven't trusted the clerics blindly? I choose not to follow God, I walk with something else. It might seem cruel and evil, the ones I walk with. But, in the end true compassion comes from understanding nature.

(1) pewforum.org...

Double posting

There are many books that deal with this topic. You could even debate that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT. They are many things when looked at as individual stories don't make sense. But you have to do more research than posting a single paragraph out of thousands of pages and look at the entire picture. Just looking at one story in the OT where God instructs his people to destroy an entire city of men, woman, and children looks ghastly and out of place - but understanding that Satan was attempting to taint the bloodline of all humanity to thwart God's plan of the Son of God born from Adam's seed is key. If you don't believe the events happened that's fine - don't bother wasting keystrokes trying to disprove something you don't believe in in the first place.

Not that I disagree with you, but I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation. When I saw the word "booty" I just had to look up the passage myself. I got this from skepticsannotatedbible.com...:

20:1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
20:2 And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people,
20:3 And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;
20:4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
20:5 And the officers shall speak unto the people, saying, What man is there that hath built a new house, and hath not dedicated it? let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man dedicate it.
20:6 And what man is he that hath planted a vineyard, and hath not yet eaten of it? let him also go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man eat of it.
20:7 And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.
20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.
20:9 And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.
20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
20:20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

Not that I'm any kind of Biblical scholar by any means, but the impression I am left with is slightly less sinister than you protray. I'm left with an impression of a vengeful God (which God himself says he is in the Bible anyway) who is doling out punishment against those who are corrupt and sinful (and most likely part of Satan's minions, in my opinion). He suggests trying peace with these war mongers first, but if peace fails, then get rid of them by force. Isn't that what good, law abiding global citizens do today? (There is some sarcasm in there which won't come across in my writing. In all honesty, I think that the current global climate is full of war mongering evil doers who are pushing us toward a global meltdown and possibly armageddon, but that's another story). But honestly, it seems like a good lesson to me. If a group of people are corrupt evil doers, as good people we should try to make peace with them first in an attempt to steer them from their corrupt path. If that does not work, then there is no reasoning with them. The only way to stop the corruption and evil is by force. Anyway, that's my two cents.

reply to post by JonU2

I have recently read a book entitled 'Mousetrails' by an elderly man named Keith Stephens, who, like me, was raised as a Christian and could never understand why people didn't talk about the actual contents of the Old Testament.

What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

Originally posted by JonU2
The point of this thread is to ask all Christians - Why are you so fervent about the caring & loving God who appears in some of your scriptures but are silent about this war-mongering, genocidal God that appears in those very same scriptures?

Well, like you, I have become spiteful and or irreverent towards god(s), but I used to really feel "fervent". As I got older I lost that child-like mindset while trying to understand God's ways. I would assume those who do still love and adore god(s) are likely those who see a glass half full instead of half empty. They are awe stricken at the beauty and goodness in our reality rather than being spiteful towards the bad things...

On to another point...

It seems like you trying to get people to dislike a particular god because bad things that happen or have happened. You want to point out 6-million + people but what about every bad thing that has ever happen in the history of ever? You should realize that if there is a one true God then he or she created this reality that allows for all bad things.

With that said, I think you probably should not cast your judgement of wrongful doings towards god(s) of our reality because they could FUBAR you... for eternity.

I don't really see where the problem is here.... YHWH is a vengeful God... He helps those who believe in him and destroys those who don't... Plain and simple...

If one were a Christian I don't see why this would change with their God... He is peaceful, forgiving and loving beyond all understanding to those who try to follow him, but will destroy all who stand against he and his people...Christ was pretty clear about what would happen in the last days... I would say a lot more than 6.5 million would die in this scenario...

According to scripture God's Love is more powerful than all, and his wrath is the same... He is all powerful in all ways...

The ultimate goal is this; Daniel 2:44 "During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed or conquered. It will crush all these kingdoms into nothingness, and it will stand forever."

We as humans who are suppost to be peaceful unless of course, as you point out happened in the OT, God wills differently....I don't understand why people have to complicate this so much... Either you believe in what is written in the Bible or you don't... The Most High is pretty consistent throughout... No matter where you decide your particuliar Holy Book ends...

Stand with Him and be rewarded... Stand against Him and be destroyed... This needs no justification by anyone...The End...

reply to post by NOTurTypical


It's not holy and righteous for God to pass judgement on wicked and rebellious people by having other people do wicked and sinful things to them.

I dunno just still doesn't sit right with me.

It's basically saying murder and rape is wrong unless i command you to murder and rape then your a good person for doing it just becuase i said it was ok on this occasion.

If God's so powerful then surely he can smite them himself rather than 'commanding' people to break his own rules.

Seems to me its all a huge excuse for the ancient Israeli's murdering, raping and enslaving anyone that believed differently to them.

makes you wonder why god sent his son to die for our sins when he had the power to kill us all at a flick of his wrist. It also seems him sending his son was a bit of a disaster anyway because we are worse off now then ever before.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

The Old Testament demonstrates that the biblical god is anything but "righteous". In fact, he's one of the most abhorrent characters in all of literature.

Originally posted by Atlantien
makes you wonder why god sent his son to die for our sins when he had the power to kill us all at a flick of his wrist. It also seems him sending his son was a bit of a disaster anyway because we are worse off now then ever before.

It's a disaster because the concept is nonsensical. God sets up a rule that requires blood sacrifice. He sends his son to earth and accepts him as a blood sacrifice (instead of just eliminating the sacrifice requirement). It's laughably absurd.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


lol... I love how some people totally ignore the question and jump right to the propaganda... Maybe you didn't understand what a verse was... it's understandable....

Originally posted by jjkenobi
There are many books that deal with this topic. You could even debate that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT. They are many things when looked at as individual stories don't make sense. But you have to do more research than posting a single paragraph out of thousands of pages and look at the entire picture. Just looking at one story in the OT where God instructs his people to destroy an entire city of men, woman, and children looks ghastly and out of place - but understanding that Satan was attempting to taint the bloodline of all humanity to thwart God's plan of the Son of God born from Adam's seed is key. If you don't believe the events happened that's fine - don't bother wasting keystrokes trying to disprove something you don't believe in in the first place.

Wait, wait, I just gotta say... if Satan was poisoning the bloodline, why didn't God miraculously un-poison the bloodline instead of tasking an innocent third party of people to go break His own Commandments to them by slaughtering, raping, and thieving on the wretched infected ones. I think you just made me less religious.

reply to post by Nammu

It's not holy and righteous for God to pass judgement on wicked and rebellious people by having other people do wicked and sinful things to them.

Wow, God kept His Word, oh the horror!!!


“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

Genesis 9:6

I dunno just still doesn't sit right with me.

In the big picture concerning the sovereignty of God, does it matter if you agree or not?


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD."

Isaiah 55:8

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

The Old Testament demonstrates that the biblical god is anything but "righteous". In fact, he's one of the most abhorrent characters in all of literature.

I couldn't disagree more. You sound like the pouting kid who is crying about how terrible mom and dad are immediately after being spanked for disobeying. God doesn't pass judgment unless there first is disobedience.

Sorry, we're at fault for disobeying, not God for punishing said disobedience.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

It's a disaster because the concept is nonsensical. God sets up a rule that requires blood sacrifice. He sends his son to earth and accepts him as a blood sacrifice (instead of just eliminating the sacrifice requirement). It's laughably absurd.

Really, Socrates grasped the seemingly impossible dilemma. Just forgiving without penalty would compromise God's righteousness.


“It may be that the Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how,” ~ Socrates, BC

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I couldn't disagree more. You sound like the pouting kid who is crying about how terrible mom and dad are immediately after being spanked for disobeying. God doesn't pass judgment unless there first is disobedience.

Sorry, we're at fault for disobeying, not God for punishing said disobedience.

The Old Testament is full of unjust and unrighteous activities by god. If you were to remove the preconception that the biblical god is somehow always in the right what you find is a capricious, genocidal maniac. And whatever gave you the opinion that god's rampages were the result of disobedience? You may wish to revisit the Old Testament for another reading (if you've actually read it already).