Prestigious doctor: US nuclear 'Baby valley of death,' Millions to die

reply to post by adeclerk


No mongering here, just the facts:

GOSHI HOSONO, SPECIAL ADVISOR TO JAPANESE PM (Translation): At present there is damage to the bottom of the reactor container, we call this ‘core melting’ in English. Part of the nuclear fuel has fallen onto the dry earth floor and it's possible that it's still lodged there.

TETSURO FUKUYAMA, GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN (Translation): Hot spots were found, meaning there were certain spots with very high readings of radiation.

Source

In Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS, Units 1 to 3 which were under operation automatically shut down at 14:46 on March 11. All of the six external power supply sources were lost because of the earthquake.

Hmm, what happened next?

Concerning Units 1 to 3 of Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS, as the situation where water injection to each RPV [reactor pressure vessel] was impossible continued for a certain period of time, nuclear fuels in each reactor core were not covered by water but were exposed, and led to a core melt. A part of the melted fuel stayed at the bottom of the RPV.

Unit 1-3: A considerable amount of melted fuel appears to have moved to and accumulated at the bottom of the RPV. There is a possibility that the bottom of the RPV is damaged as part of the melted fuel dropped and accumulated on the dry well floor (lower pedestal) of the PCV.

Source

But I suppose this is all nothing but fear mongering as well. Using your reasoning, we might as well close all of these threads and focus on the important topics, which would be... ?

Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Another .gov website... and this one's stats are only viewable annually?

Regardless, you really fail to see the instant defeat in trying to refute a government cover-up conspiracy with stats from a government website that was compiled by independent web businesses.... to be a raw styled structural website that has 100% of its content generated BY THE ALLEGED CONSPIRATORS...? This is your "evidence"?

Among the worst arguments I've ever heard on ATS, sorry.

So now you have evidence that it's a coverup? Please share, I'd love to see it.

Who said I had evidence? I just told you why the "evidence" you brought to the table sucked. Sorry if that hurts your feelings to realize that you're not as bright as you thought you were... roll your eyes and continue on like the mature individual that you are...

(Seriously, grow up and get over yourself )

why doesn't the thread title have ***hoax*** in it by now ?

reply to post by syrinx high priest

Why don't you have any proof that it's a hoax?

reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Byrd

 

We have both covered the good doctor's essay.

She is an activist and the other person in the OP article has been paid for by the anti-nuclear lobby.

Oh *UGH*. I had to scurry off to work today and didn't check her affiliations. She should have her title removed.

The primary thing wrong with the good doctor's numbers is that she failed to pin the new deaths against the live birth rate. Which would have given us a percentage of children that died.

Actually, she didn't note WHAT they died of. Pneumonia? Abusive boyfriend of the mother (not uncommon)? Car accident (not unknown)? Preexisting genetic disorders? (most common) Premature babies (they have a high mortality rate)? SIDS? If we use her methodology, we find that car accidents, prematurity (where the baby was born BEFORE the accident), genetic disorders (occurring before Fukushima), bacterial sepsis, complications of labor, accidental drowning, accidental self-poisoning (kid getting into something), homicide, and dog attacks are all caused by radiation.

www.childdeathreview.org...

www.cdc.gov...

hoax

hoaxy hoax

hoaxarific hoaxster

Originally posted by Aeons
My children's chances of having babies with mutations has been drastically increased for the want of a government that dictated a SINGLE FRACKING DIESEL GENERATOR at a nuclear plant with six reactors and a secret weapons program at it.

The hate I have for the arrogant gorilla brained "leaders" of business and government over this issue is deep. This industry has proven they cannot be trusted in anyway to regulate themselves.

I am not anti-nuclear. I am anti-stupidity. This disaster is PURE stupidity.

So, I ask you ... what are the chances that when ELENIN is near, and passing by between us and then sun, and then even closer and over our North Polar area ... what are the chances they will power down all nuclear plants before those dates (Sept. 11 is the first).

How hard would it be for them to take the precaution .. to save perhaps millions upon millions more from Fukishima type radiation after the 3 comets are gone?

ELENIN is a heavy gravity object .. and has a debris train hundreds of miles behind it in space, it will be here during the Leonids as well ... Assuming it does not pummel us with huge rocks .. it will still cause Earthquakes and Vulcanism ... and somewhere on Earth it is "possible" that it would cause another Reactor Incident.

So what are the chances of getting all Nuclear Plants to Power Down ... BEFORE it is near!!

I would like to think there is some chance!!

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
why doesn't the thread title have ***hoax*** in it by now ?

ATS doesn't have much incentive to deny ignorance on threads that gain a lot of interest, how else are they going to make a buck on peoples ignorance (you know, by getting a certain demographic to flock to a thread and click on ads on the board).

If anything, that's one of the few real conspiracies on this site.

ETA: No offense to the fine users and moderators of this forum.

Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
why doesn't the thread title have ***hoax*** in it by now ?

ATS doesn't have much incentive to deny ignorance on threads that gain a lot of interest, how else are they going to make a buck on peoples ignorance (you know, by getting a certain demographic to flock to a thread and click on ads on the board).

If anything, that's one of the few real conspiracies on this site.

so you now attack the hosts of our playspace ATS?
you really do know what to say to hit a nerve
and i wounder if that is acually your point?

you have yet to answer my questions.......................

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


So why do you think an acupuncturists ideas about the potential supposed effects of nuclear fallout are credible, especially considering the shoddy methodology presented in this OP?

Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
I know, I know.

"It is currently unclear if release from fuel pool already happened."


There is still a large preponderance of evidence that highly radioactive materials were present in that plume of debris.

edit on 23-6-2011 by jadedANDcynical because: All joking aside.

Everything in that presentation is speculation of consequences if what you were describing occurred.

What evidence?

That's from today, btw.

From wiki on sivierts (microsivierts per hour used on the graph):

Symptoms of acute radiation (dose received within one day):
* 0 – 0.25 Sv (0 – 250 mSv): None
* 0.25 – 1 Sv (250 – 1000 mSv): Some people feel nausea and loss of appetite; bone marrow, lymph nodes, spleen damaged.
* 1 – 3 Sv (1000 – 3000 mSv): Mild to severe nausea, loss of appetite, infection; more severe bone marrow, lymph node, spleen damage; recovery probable, not assured.
* 3 – 6 Sv (3000 – 6000 mSv): Severe nausea, loss of appetite; hemorrhaging, infection, diarrhea, peeling of skin, sterility; death if untreated.
* 6 – 10 Sv (6000 – 10000 mSv): Above symptoms plus central nervous system impairment; death expected. * Above 10 Sv (10000 mSv): Incapacitation and death.

Source
Let's stop the fearmongering, bro.

edit on 6/23/11 by adeclerk because: (no reason given)

oddly , ats is an interesting place , a heady mix of the intelligent and ..well other ...

It is spelled out in the previous posts: the energy available to do the damage seen is more than enough to have destroyed and ejected the core , in fact it's more than a requirement , hydrogen by it's lonesome , is insufficient for the damage we see at #3. The assessment is not "fear mongering" ( unless one is a coward afraid of scientific analysis by military experts ), is not scientific given the video and photographic evidence ... not to mention the thermal data provided by the ministry of defense ( of Japan ) and the photographic analysis done by a number of experts on ats here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

, your argument is ineffectual as it has no factual content ....or logical basis other than singular bias , please illuminate us as to why a several hundred hours of expert research should be less considered than you saying "boo"( which in case you miss the irony is a form of fear mongering )
??





(edit) another interesting fact is that radiation exposure tends to produce more men than women in births that live...odd since all fetuses start out female

reply to post by syrinx high priest


Speculative skepticism is proof of a hoax?

Things don't have to be 100% solid fact to be a conspiracy theory..

..If you're really that disinterested in the topic, stop showing up to it. It's that simple.

I don't see the necessity to be rude to the OP and say this should be hoaxified when it's not yet disproved.

Originally posted by adeclerk

From wiki on sivierts (microsivierts per hour used on the graph):

Symptoms of acute radiation (dose received within one day):
* 0 – 0.25 Sv (0 – 250 mSv): None
* 0.25 – 1 Sv (250 – 1000 mSv): Some people feel nausea and loss of appetite; bone marrow, lymph nodes, spleen damaged.
* 1 – 3 Sv (1000 – 3000 mSv): Mild to severe nausea, loss of appetite, infection; more severe bone marrow, lymph node, spleen damage; recovery probable, not assured.
* 3 – 6 Sv (3000 – 6000 mSv): Severe nausea, loss of appetite; hemorrhaging, infection, diarrhea, peeling of skin, sterility; death if untreated.
* 6 – 10 Sv (6000 – 10000 mSv): Above symptoms plus central nervous system impairment; death expected. * Above 10 Sv (10000 mSv): Incapacitation and death.

Source
Let's stop the fearmongering, bro.

edit on 6/23/11 by adeclerk because: (no reason given)

First off this chart refers to acute full body exposure. We are referring to inhalation/ingestion of alpha and beta emitters chronically irradiating bone, muscle and nerve tissue at contact distance which your chart does not refer to. This is why polonium will kill you deader than hell even though it emits alpha particles during it's decay cycle. You know- the ones nobody has to worry about since they will not penetrate skin... although Alex Livitenko might disagree if he was alive today. He ingested it and died horribly and painfully.

There's also the inverse square rule in regards to radiation exposure which works both ways- the closer you are the more damaging the effects of the decay of the particle or source will be. Go ahead an google it- it's relatively easy to understand.

As for the rector 3 explosion and ejection of the core- the explosion seen in the video was linear and directed. A hydrogen explosion is omnidirectional and takes on the shape of an inverted bowl being that the substance being converted is gaseous with no containment to speak of. This is why there is an evenly distributed debris field IVO reactor #1 with overpressure evidence showing a radial pattern outward from the structure. The #3 explosion was initiated by the hydrogen blast however a review of the video shows primary, secondary and tertiary explosive events- the tertiary one being the RPV failure and ejection of a goodly portion of the core vertically up through the RPV cap/flange assembly which is known to fail above 70 PSI (Google Brunswick BWR test failure). This also accounts for the plutonium being found on the site which was produced by AREVA in France as MOX fuel for this reactor.

reply to post by jadedANDcynical


Alright, thank you for filling me in. So what, exactly, are the implications for the future? Since nothing too bad is going on now with radiation (although the heightened levels, miniscule as they are, are a cause for concern), what would a total core meltdown mean for Japan and other countries?

Isn't the crack that was allowing radioactive water to drain into the ocean more of a concern currently?

Originally posted by adeclerk
reply to post by jadedANDcynical

 

Alright, thank you for filling me in.

So what, exactly, are the implications for the future? Since nothing too bad is going on now with radiation (although the heightened levels, miniscule as they are, are a cause for concern), what would a total core meltdown mean for Japan and other countries?

Isn't the crack that was allowing radioactive water to drain into the ocean more of a concern currently?

Bad things are going on brother- very bad things. The 3 melted cores and 4 (possibly 6) damaged SFR pools are pumping several petabequerels of radioisotopes into the atmosphere every single day. The problem isn't single exposure to external sources it is the uptake of long lived radionuclides like cesium 137 which has a half life of decades and is an alpha emitter like polonium 210. It gets into your system and lodges in your muscles and bones where it irradiates the hell out of them.

The cores HAVE melted down and melted through the rector pressure vessels as well as the containment structure. This is why TEPCO was pumping water into the containment rather than the RPV after the first week- there was nothing left IN the RPV to cool.

As for the contamination of the Pacific- it is a major threat but essentially to the Japanese as well as the east coast of Russia (specifically the Kamchtakan peninsula). The problem for anyone CONUS is going to be when the water they were trying to treat, which overloaded the filters which were supposed to last a month in just 5 hours, starts pouring out. Not to make light of a very, very bad situation but think the 3 eyed fish from the Simpsons.

As for millions of babies dying... perhaps over the long term. Didn't read the OP but while infant mortality has risen 35-54% in the corridor predicted by the ZAMG atmospheric models this amounts to an extra 5-13 infants dying per month per 1000 births. Yes it sucks if you're the parent however in comparison to the population of the United States it's a drop in the bucket. Sorry to sound so cold and jaded but it is what it is.

Originally posted by SFA437
First off this chart refers to full body exposure. We are referring to inhalation/ingestion of alpha and beta emitters which your chart does not refer to. This is why polonium will kill you deader than hell even though it emits alpha particles during it's decay cycle. You know- the ones nobody has to worry about since they will not penetrate skin... although Alex Livitenko might disagree if he was alive today. He ingested it and died horribly and painfully.

Which alpha and beta emitters do we specifically need to worry about with this plant, with sources please.

There's also the inverse square rule in regards to radiation exposure which works both ways- the closer you are the more damaging the effects of the decay of the particle or source will be. Go ahead an google it- it's relatively easy to understand.

It's part of the reason why this sensationalism is fear mongering, we are pretty safe right now in North America.

As for the rector 3 explosion and ejection of the core- the explosion seen in the video was linear and directed. A hydrogen explosion is omnidirectional and takes on the shape of an inverted bowl being that the substance being converted is gaseous with no containment to speak of. This is why there is an evenly distributed debris field IVO reactor #1 with overpressure evidence showing a radial pattern outward from the structure. The #3 explosion was initiated by the hydrogen blast however a review of the video shows primary, secondary and tertiary explosive events- the tertiary one being the RPV failure and ejection of a goodly portion of the core vertically up through the RPV cap/flange assembly which is known to fail above 70 PSI (Google Brunswick BWR test failure). This also accounts for the plutonium being found on the site which was produced by AREVA in France as MOX fuel for this reactor.

Thanks for the info.

Check and mate

Is this a game to you?

Originally posted by adeclerk

Which alpha and beta emitters do we specifically need to worry about with this plant, with sources please.

Everything you need to know is here:
DOE BWR Handbook 1
and here:
DOE BWR Handbook 2

Originally posted by adeclerkIt's part of the reason why this sensationalism is fear mongering, we are pretty safe right now in North America.

How do you connect thousands of petabequerels of long lived radioisotopic particulate matter being pumped out daily into the atmosphere and ocean (which are bioaccumulating in everything from grasses to fish to cows to people) to being "pretty safe"?

Originally posted by adeclerk
Thanks for the info.

I'm actually a former DoD Intel squirrel pretty high up the food chain (would have made SES but my politics weren't right for the current Administration My bailiwick was overhead imagery analysis and combat effectiveness estimation with a strong background in post-blast effectiveness of all kinds or ordnance on structures, vehicles and troops/combatants. Been my main contribution to the massive Fuku thread in essence.

Originally posted by adeclerk
Is this a game to you?

No- I just get cranky when I'm deprived of caffeine, nicotine and Sno-Balls. I edited the snark out of my OP

Originally posted by adeclerk
reply to post by jadedANDcynical

 

Alright, thank you for filling me in.

You're most certainly welcome

So what, exactly, are the implications for the future?

This is a multifaceted and very leading question, but I will make a small attempt at something approaching a reasonable answer.

First and foremost is the human cost.

Since your so keen on government sources, let's see what the EPA has to say about some of this:

Stochastic effects are associated with long-term, low-level (chronic) exposure to radiation. ("Stochastic" refers to the likelihood that something will happen.) Increased levels of exposure make these health effects more likely to occur, but do not influence the type or severity of the effect.

Cancer rates will see an increase, with some localized areas that will have higher concentrations than others, some much more so. Birth defects will likewise show an increase. Neither of these will be extremely blatant or glaring for quite some time (or so I sincerely hope).

More from the EPA:

Cancer is considered by most people the primary health effect from radiation exposure. Simply put, cancer is the uncontrolled growth of cells. Ordinarily, natural processes control the rate at which cells grow and replace themselves. They also control the body's processes for repairing or replacing damaged tissue. Damage occurring at the cellular or molecular level, can disrupt the control processes, permitting the uncontrolled growth of cells--cancer. This is why ionizing radiation's ability to break chemical bonds in atoms and molecules makes it such a potent carcinogen.

Many of the more serious effects won't show for decades, genetic defects from fetal exposure is an example.

Even more from the EPA:

Other stochastic effects also occur. Radiation can cause changes in DNA, the "blueprints" that ensure cell repair and replacement produces a perfect copy of the original cell. Changes in DNA are called mutations. Sometimes the body fails to repair these mutations or even creates mutations during repair. The mutations can be teratogenic or genetic. Teratogenic mutations are caused by exposure of the fetus in the uterus and affect only the individual who was exposed. Genetic mutations are passed on to offspring.

Does any of this sound like cause for concern or not?

Since nothing too bad is going on now with radiation (although the heightened levels, miniscule as they are, are a cause for concern), what would a total core meltdown mean for Japan and other countries?

This is again not a simple or single part question.

For one thing, it means that a lot more people should have been evacuated a long time ago, this really is a worldwide catastrophe that will have far reaching effects. As for what it means for other countries, more radiation. A lot more than if the cores were still semi-contained and unmelted. Physics can be a bitch sometimes, and this time it's kicking our collective asses.

Then there are the economic consequences, again, something subtle and not soon to be made known. These to will bleed over into the human cost area and will be made up of a lot of intangibles.

This isn't a flashy or very Hollywoodesque scenario. It's a long, slow, invisible strangulation that isn't noticed until it's too late.

Think frogs and boiling water (google is your friend if you don't know the reference)

Isn't the crack that was allowing radioactive water to drain into the ocean more of a concern currently?

It's still a concern yes. The ground underneath in addition to (need a reminder definition here?) the structures of the plant are severely damaged:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/63a441cf462f.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9adf342dea76.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/af3dd5e12b0b.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7f550b95e34e.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/210cf60062bd.jpg[/atsimg]

Whether it's more of a concern than 3 melted cores (R1,& R2 melted in the RPV, slumping to the bottom then eventually into the primary containment structure, R4's core was in the spent fuel pool awaiting reloading into the reactor when the quake hit, R3 was a portion of that cloud in the video I linked) is a question for a thread on it's own maybe.

Heck I've been thinking recently each subsection of the plant could support a thread of it's own; each reactor, the CSFP, the dry cask facility, the barges, but that would essentially duplicate the monster thread in separate bites.

Meh.

Any more questions?

Here's a couple good, solid points on why #3 went bye-bye...

Hydrogen & Radionuclide Reactions in BWR

1.2- Last bullet point: Generation of hydrogen only for 15m after shutdown unless core melts down

1.3- In totalis

2.1- 5th bullet point: Hydrogen detonation is spatially non-uniform (refer to my bowl shape above)

Everything from page 15 on refers to the various "iums" produced. Good read all in all (Thanks to BKGump for sourcing it)

What we're trying to get at is the OP is indeed sensationalist and does indeed degenerate into scaremongering (just read it) but that does not mitigate the long term effects on not only the health of us but of our descendants. Hell I've irradiated the bejeezus out of myself after 6 years in Iraq surrounded by DU dust and God knows what the Iraqis were messing with in Taji (they tested rockets and jet engines there). I am, as Turkish put it, "Proper f**ked Tommy, proper f**ked". I care about this because I have children and THEY are the ones who will bear the brunt of ingesting/inhaling the products of Fukushima.

Cesium is here in levels several thousand times above normal. That is just one of the various elemental isotopes coming down across CONUS. This stuff accumulates inside you and every living thing. It gets into grass which produce grain which is fed to cows, chickens and pigs, which a slaughtered and eaten by us. Every single step is an order of magnitude higher in concentration than the one before it as it does not "flush out" the way plutonium does when ingested (don't eat plutonium- I used it because it is not readily absorbed although 50 nanograms is enough to kill you stone dead).

I have paid close attention to this from day 1, adding my expertise where I could and listening to those with better grasps on the physics- then verifying that info. I've reached out to guys who were on NEST teams, nuclear weapons guys in my former line of work.. anyone with real world experience in the effects of fission products and NONE of the info is pretty.

No it is not time to panic- there is never a time for that. What it is time for is preparation and education and that is why we're all here.

Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
reply to post by adeclerk

 

No mongering here, just the facts:

GOSHI HOSONO, SPECIAL ADVISOR TO JAPANESE PM (Translation): At present there is damage to the bottom of the reactor container, we call this ‘core melting’ in English. Part of the nuclear fuel has fallen onto the dry earth floor and it's possible that it's still lodged there.

TETSURO FUKUYAMA, GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN (Translation): Hot spots were found, meaning there were certain spots with very high readings of radiation.

Source

In Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS, Units 1 to 3 which were under operation automatically shut down at 14:46 on March 11. All of the six external power supply sources were lost because of the earthquake.

Hmm, what happened next?

Concerning Units 1 to 3 of Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS, as the situation where water injection to each RPV [reactor pressure vessel] was impossible continued for a certain period of time, nuclear fuels in each reactor core were not covered by water but were exposed, and led to a core melt. A part of the melted fuel stayed at the bottom of the RPV.

Unit 1-3: A considerable amount of melted fuel appears to have moved to and accumulated at the bottom of the RPV. There is a possibility that the bottom of the RPV is damaged as part of the melted fuel dropped and accumulated on the dry well floor (lower pedestal) of the PCV.

Source

But I suppose this is all nothing but fear mongering as well. Using your reasoning, we might as well close all of these threads and focus on the important topics, which would be... ?

Actually J and C all your posts prove is that the core material is sitting at the bottom of the "well" so to speak. There as yet isn't any proof that the reactor core blew.

If you recall on the other thread, we were also discussing if the Spent Fuel Pool actually ignited, which is also what Arnie believes happened.