Book of Revelation: A REAL Vision' or a FAKE Prophecy' PatchedTogether from Scraps of 'Old" Test

reply to post by marg6043

But don't tell that to the bible believers because they will never do the research to find the truth as long as is not part of the bible itself.

I did Marg, many of us have, I don't remember ever not believing in God, or Jesus, I was a devout Christian, and wanted to be a missionary when I was young.

When reading the Bible alone, I started noticing some interesting things, like the verse about the mighty men of renown, and when Jesus mentioned other books and ancient texts, questions, I went to the library for answers, and found the books not in the KJV.

So I began researching as far back as the ancient texts would take me, it was an amazing journey, at times I lost faith, sometimes I became depressed, but yes, it was an amazing journey and lesson about the roots of spirituality and religion,

Now when I read the Bible I see it through different eyes, and have a keener understanding, but still believe.

The archeology study Bible
www.archaeologicalstudybible.com...

www.archaeologicalstudybible.com...

reply to post by Sigismundus


Do you have a book?

Your post are fascinating.

I look at the Bible as a history lesson, and history seems to continually repeat itself.

The entire Bible is a collection of folk tales and bed time stories.

Why would be Book of Revelation be any diffferent?

Originally posted by babybunnies
The entire Bible is a collection of folk tales and bed time stories.

Why would be Book of Revelation be any diffferent?

I am sorry but that is an over simplification.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I look at the Bible as a history lesson, and history seems to continually repeating itself.

The Bible is a GREAT teacher of histories, if you look at it simply as a collection of stories from the time or a collection of historical folk stories. Folk stories are usually based somewhat in events that did happen, although are usually a very distorted accounting of what actually happened.

So long as we don't take The Bible too literally, we can definitely use it as a VERY loose historical record.

Hi Baby,
The Birth & Death of Biblical Minimalism
www.bib-arch.org...

I like to keep an open mind, that works both ways.

Really you are missing out on a lot if you ignore the ancient text, no matter what religion we are talking about.

there is at least one, and possibly two, clear references to the dynasty of David in the ninth century B.C.E., only 100–120 years after his reign. This is clear evidence that David was indeed a historical figure and the founding father of a dynasty.
This led to the collapse of the minimalist paradigm in which David was little more than a myth. There was a David. He was a king. And he founded a dynasty.
The minimalists reacted in panic, leading to a number of suggestions that now seem ridiculous: The Hebrew bytdwd should be read not as the House of David, but as a place named betdwd, in parallel to the well-known place-name Ashdod.2 Other minimalist suggestions included “House of Uncle,” “House of Kettle” and “House of Beloved.”c
Nowadays, arguments like these can be classified as displaying “paradigm-collapse trauma,” that is, literary compilations of groundless arguments, masquerading as scientific writing through footnotes, references and publication in professional journals.
The Tel Dan stela ended the first phase of the debate regarding the historicity of the Hebrew Bible, demonstrating that the mythological paradigm was nothing but a modern myth.
After the collapse of this mythological paradigm, a new strategy was developed by the minimalists. The central method was to lower the dating of the archaeological material that had previously been attributed to the time of David and Solomon by nearly a hundred years—from the early–mid-tenth century B.C.E. to the late tenth or even ninth century B.C.E. It was an argument based strictly on archaeology. The leading developer and proponent of this argument is Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University. It rests on the so-called “Low Chronology,” as opposed to the traditional (or high) chronology.

Here is how it works:
www.bib-arch.org...

reply to post by Sigismundus


WTH? Simmer down before you bust a nut or something.

Um, no, my Sunday school teacher didn't share all of that with me. I don't attend Sunday school.

In any event, thanks for the information.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

Hi We Are Watching You –

OK - I’ll see what I can do to answer your query very briefly given the limitations on ATS posts

As you mentioned, the imagery of the 144,000 in the ‘Book of Revelation’ is found in (2) passages viz. Rev 7: 1-8 and Rev. 14: 1-5.

We might be dealing with Levetical priestly ‘gemmatria’ buried in the text somewhere under here which is surrounding the idea of the 'sacred' number 12

(Hebrew Gematria is derived from two Greek terms : Gamma + Tria = i.e. ‘the letter Gamma is equivalent to Number 3’ – i.e. words phrases and letters that have Hebraic ‘esoteric’ equivalent ‘hiddden’ numerical value or portents as with the 666 Name & Number of of the Beast in chapter 13).

We note for example that in Hezekiel 43:16 the central Fire Place of the Main Altar of YHWH in the Visionary Temple Cult is exactly 12 cubits by 12 cubits – evidently mirroring the 12 tribes, or the 12 signs of the Zodiac (‘the Throne of YHWH is the Firmament’ etc.) and reflected in the 12 stones within the breastplate of the High Priest, etc.

Presumably they are speaking of the same group defined by several characteristics, e.g. their number 144,000 – which seems to represent a kind of Holy Idealised Righteous Remnant of Yisro’el ‘who did not worship the Beast…’ - although when comparing the two passages, there are a few differences.

Here are the two texts in modern English so we can refer back to them more easily

Rev 7: 1-8

After these things I looked & behold, I saw: 4 Angels stood at the 4 Corners of the Earth
And lo, they were all holding back the [powers of the] 4 Winds [of the earth]
In order to stop their Winds [of destruction] from blowing upon the Land or Sea or Trees.
Then I looked & lo, another Angel rising in the East, having the Seal of the EL who gives Life
And in a Loud Voice he called to the 4 Angels with the Powers [to harm Land & Sea], saying .
‘Harm not the Land or Seas or Trees until we mark the foreheads of the Servants of our god.’

And & lo, I heard the number of those that were branded with the Mark on their Foreheads
And that [number] was 144,000, extracted from amongst all the Tribes of Yisro’el
From Judah were marked 12,000 : from Reuben 12,000; from Gad 12,000,
From Asher 12,000, from Naphtali 12,000, from Manasseh 12,000,
From Simeon 12,000, From Levi 12,000, from Issachar 12,000,
From Zebulun 12,000, from Joseph 12,000 & from Benjamin 12,000.


[note: the Tribe of Dan is missing, and Manasseh, a half-tribe is added]


Rev 14: 1-5

Then I looked, & behold I saw, the Ram was standing on top of Mount Zion
And with him stood the 144,000 with the Father's name engraved upon their Foreheads.
And, lo I heard a sound from heaven like a Roar [of a Lion], like rushing Waters or Thunder
Then I heard what sounded like [the music of] Harpists harping upon their Harps. .
And lo, they sang a New Song before the face[s] of the Throne & the 4 Chayyot & the Elders
And no f man knew it except the 144,000 who were martyred upon the land [of Yisro’el].

They are they who have not polluted themselves [i.e. before the battle]
Even with the [flesh of] women, but are [ritual] celibates [i.e. ready for war]
And they follow the Ram whenever he leads them out. .
These were ransomed from among the sons of men to be offered as first-fruits to EL

[ in the margin: and to the Lamb] And lo, No Deception found in their Mouths, for they are Righteous.


So what can be known about these 144,000 Righteous Ones from the text as it stands above?

We can see first that the group of 144,000 are clearly marked with a brand on their foreheads and thus separated off (like Hezekiel's branding of the Righteous in Hez. chapter 9) from other groups and termed e.g. ‘the Righteous Ones’ who are able alone to be able to sing a New Song in the Heavenly Temple which 'no other son of man could learn'

Interestingly, perhaps, the 'Sons of Righteousness' and ‘The Righteous Ones’ are also some of the 22 sacred names that the Dead Sea Scroll covenanters gave to themselves at Qumran – which was always in contrast to other groups e.g. The Sons of Darkness or The Sons of Belial or simply, 'the Wicked Ones' etc.

These 144,000 in the Book of Revelation also stand in opposition to another group, specifically The Beast-Worshippers (presumably the Roman Army or those in cahoots with them) under the control of the Crimson Serpent-Dragon (presumably Rome) with whom they wage War.

And the 144,000 is not without its WAR connotation either.

We see the number listed as 144,000 is divided evenly into 12 Tribes, almost in the manner of an Perfected Military Census or Roll Call of Warriors (see 1 Chronicles chapters 4 through 7, where the Masoretic Text gives a similar Roll Call of Warriors by Tribe – with a few more than 144,000 - roughly 152,000 ‘fighting men ready and fit to do battle’ if you add up all the various numbers). In Chronicles, the numbers are NOT even per tribe – so the list in Revelation seems to be idealized in some way.

We also see them as all Male - and also, that all of them are ‘Virgins’ (Parthenous in the Greek is masculine here) i.e. ritually pure i.e. prepared for warfare.

Since it appears that they are already Holy War Martyrs who have been granted a place with the Righteous in Heaven by the time of the 2nd Pericope, this would not be surprising - if we recall some of the language placed into the Greek Speaking Iesous in the canonical Greek gospels e.g. ‘for there is no marriage or being given in marriage…but they are all like the Angels in Heaven..’ i.e. presumably celibate.

Interestingly in ancient Levitical Holy Warfare, echoed in the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters at Qumran, all soldiers from the House of Yisro’el that are ‘fit for the battle’ had to be celibate for 3 days prior to engagement on the Battle Field of the Final Holy War against the Sons of Darkness (normally in ancient Israel, these three days were a kind of 'temporary celibacy', where even a Temporary Divorce was given to underscore this point) – also see : Exodus 19:14 the Israelites had to be celibate for 3 days before approaching the Mountain of YHWH

Here is what the War Scroll says about male celibates fighting the Holy War: (1QM)

All of those fit for Battle shall be Male Volunteers, ritually Pure & Righteous with respect to his Flesh and his Spirit, and fully prepared for the Day of Vengeance against all the Goyim [i.e. Gentiles] – And any man who is not ritually clean in respect to his Fount (seminal flow) on the great Day of Battle shall not go up with them to the fight, for lo, the holy Angels are will the Army…

They are all able to sing a New Psalm (or New Song), of which in the Hebrew scriptures there are 6 total (cf: that magical number in the Apocalypse) in number, all of them boasting Victory over the goyim in Battle e.g. Psalms 149 :1-9, Psalms 33:3-12, Psalms 40:3, Psalms 96: 1-6, Psalms 98:1-3 and Psalms 99:9

In other words the NEW SONG is a CODE WORD for WAR VICTORY over the GENTILES

Here is a sample of the New Song War Victory Phraseology
Psalm 149:

Hallelujah – Sing to YHWH a NEW SONG
His Praises in the Assembly of the Faithful Ones !

Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
Let the people of Zion be glad in their King.
Let them praise his name with dancing
And make music to him with timbrel and harp.
For YHWH takes delight in his people !

He crowns the Downtrodden with Victory in Battle
Therefore let his Faithful Ones rejoice !
May the praise of EL be in their mouths
And a Double-edged sword in their hands,
To inflict Vengeance upon all the Gentiles
And to dole out punishment upon all the Goyim
For in that Day we will bind their kings with fetters,
And all of the Nobles of the Gentiles will be shackled in Iron Chains

Oh that we might carry out the sentence written against them all—
For this is the Glory of all his Faithful Ones !

Hallelujah !

Also Psalm 33:

Sing joyfully to YHWH, all you Righteous Ones
For it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
Praise YHWH with the harp -

Make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
Sing to him a NEW SONG -
Yea, play skillfully & shout for joy.
For the Oracles of YHWH are right & true;
He is faithful in all he does.
For YHWH loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of his unfailing Chesed
Yea, YHWH foils the plans of the Gentiles
he thwarts the purposes of the Goyim
But the battle-plans of YHWH stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose clan-god is YHWH,
Even the people he chose for his inheritance.
No king is saved by the size of his army;
no warrior escapes by his great strength.
A horse is a vain hope for deliverance;
despite all its great strength it cannot save.
But the eyes of YHWH are on those who fear him,
on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,
to deliver them from death & keep them alive in famine.
We wait in hope for YHWH - our help & our shield in Battle !

So clearly the scene of the New Song Singers (of the 144,000) is Holy War and the reward of the Martyrs as a Righteous Remnant in particular who have been branded with a Brand or Seal or Mark

(see Hezekiel chapter 9 for the righteous being marked with a brand on the forehead that are spared destrucctioin by the 6 Angels (or men in linen tunics) of Vengeance)

Hezekiel 9:

Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand."

And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen with writing kit at his side.

They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

Now the glory of the clan-god of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then YHWH called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side
and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a brand-mark on the foreheads of those righteous ones who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill all those without the seal, without showing pity or compassion….”

Hope this helps - I’ll see if I have time to get you some more background on these (2) pericopes this week regarding 144,000 – there is so much to say about this particular topic, it could be its very own thread on ATS - so stay tuned...

reply to post by Sigismundus

We note for example that in Hezekiel 43:16 the central Fire Place of the Main Altar of YHWH in the Visionary Temple Cult is exactly 12 cubits by 12 cubits – evidently mirroring the 12 tribes, or the 12 signs of the Zodiac (‘the Throne of YHWH is the Firmament’ etc.) and reflected in the 12 stones within the breastplate of the High Priest, etc.

I haven't finished reading your post yet, but had to stop at this quote,

I became fascinated with measurement and the importance of the measuring rod , staff, and numbers in the Bible as well.

and then there are the harlots

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Hi again,MyEyes Are Watching –

As promised, here is a little more background to the symbolic 'Holy War' number of 144,000 (see Rev. chapters 7 and 12) of your earlier post this week to me –

Obviously, when it comes to subjects like the ‘Book of Revelation’ (aka ‘The Apocalypse of Yohanon’, whoever he was), one could literally go on forever with interpretations of what is in the text – so we will try and limit the discussion to the ‘stealings’ (i.e. literary borrowings) from the Hebrew Scriptures (including the Apocrypha and Pseudipigrapha) – which is after all the main topic on this thread, when all is said and done.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Book of Revelation uses the Language of Holy War throughout the mangled koine-Greek copies of the ancient texts of the book, and the subject of the 144,000 is certainly no exception…

I gave a reference to the Tribal Musters (Roll Call of Fighting Men of Yisro’el) found in 1 Chronicles chapters 4 through 7 where a symbolic ‘holy’ number (12 x 12 x 1000) = 144,000 is divided evenly into 12,000 ‘righteous’ martyrs (later called First Fruit Offerings to YHWH) from all 12 Tribes…in the manner of an Perfected Military Census or Roll Call of Warriors (see 1 Chronicles chapters 4 through 7, where the Massoretic Text (MT) gives a similar Roll Call of Warriors with a certain number of fighting men listed according to their tribal musters i.e. so many men by Tribe – with a few more than 144,000 - roughly 152,000 ‘fighting men ready and fit to do battle’ if you add up all the various numbers).

As we said in my earlier posting to you, the first reference in 1 Chronicles chapters 4 through 7 , the numbers are not-evenly set out as 12,000 men per each tribe as they are in the Book of Revelation (with its evenly spaced 12,000 sacred holy male--virgin Martyrs as 'first fruit offerings to YHWH;' per 12 Tribes of Yisro’el ) the total being c. 152,000 – so the more evenly distributed list of 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1000) in Revelation seems to be a deliberate cultic symbolic idealisation number of Holy Warriors on the part of the writer who are 'branded and set apart' to fight the 'Beast Worshippers who are likewise branded - but with the Brand of the Beast') .

But I meant to add (but for the length of my last ATS post !) that later in the same book of 1 Chronicles in the Hebrew canon, there IS a more idealized set of Holy Warrior Numbers used when describing the more-permanent ‘standing Army’ of David in Jerusalem, modeled on the Hittite Army Model at Jebus (the old name for the former Jebusite capital of Tzion which had been conquered by ‘the clan chief’ David)- where 288,000 men (i.e. 144,000 x 2) is mentioned as a kind of Holy War Contingent of Fighting Men

(Interestingly, in the Feeding of the 5,000 R. Yehoshua also has his followers 'divided into Military Companies in the 'earliest' Gospel (likewise written in howlingly bad ungrammatical Greek with a heavy Aramaic accent) of 'Mark' see chapter 6:39,

'Then Iesous directed his Disciples to have all the People sit down in Companies on top of the Green Grass..'

(The Aramaic phrase for 'The Green Grass' is one of the writer of the Book of Revelation's Aramaisms in the burning oracles; the term 'military Companies' is found in many passages in the Dead Sea Scroll's War Scroll, lit. 'Fighting Men of the Companies of the 10s, of the 50s and of the 100s' etc. - again the specific use of Holy War Terminology is expressed in the use of such coded terms in the Greek texts of Revelation (and sometimes buried deeply within the canonical council approved Greek gospel material too if you look for it...)

But back to the Sacred Holy War Numbering in the 'Book of Revelation' : viz. 24 x 12 x 1000 = 288,000 (=144,000 x 2)

See 1 Chron. 27:1-15 - And this is the Roll call of the sons of Israel representing the Chiefs of the Families, and the Commanders of thousands & Commanders of Hundreds with their officers who served the king referring to the Army Divisions that were on duty monthly in the year and each of the 12 Military Divisions consisted of 24,000 men each.

In charge of the 1st Division, for the first month was Jashobeam son of Zabdiel descendant of Perez. There were 24,000 men in his Division.

In charge of the Division for the 2nd month was Dodai the Ahohite, his subordinate was Mikloth There were 24,000 men in his Division.

The third army commander, for the third month, was Benaiah son of Jehoiada the priest. He was chief and there were 24,000 men in his division, his subordinate was his son Ammizabad

The fourth, for the fourth month, was Asahel the brother of Joab; his son Zebadiah was his successor. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The fifth, for the fifth month, was the commander Shamhuth the Izrahite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The sixth, for the sixth month, was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The seventh, for the seventh month, was Helez the Pelonite, an Ephraimite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The eighth, for the eighth month, was Sibbekai the Hushathite, a Zerahite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The ninth, for the ninth month, was Abiezer the Anathothite, a Benjamite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The tenth, for the tenth month, was Maharai the Netophathite, a Zerahite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The eleventh, for the eleventh month, was Benaiah the Pirathonite, an Ephraimite. There were 24,000 men in his division.

The twelfth, for the twelfth month, was Heldai the Netophathite, from the family of Othniel. There were 24,000 men in his division.

This Sacred Doubling (= 144,000 x 2) has specific Cultic Temple & Military Overtones when we consider the Q’ozen ‘Breastplate’ which held the 12 stones of the High Priest’s sacred vestments was folded DOUBLE to form a Pouch holding the Urrim ve Thummim (lit. ‘Condemnation’ and ‘Innocence’ aka the Aleph (first letter of Urrim) and the Tav (first letter of Thummim) aka: ‘The Alpha & The Omega’, in Greek – sound familiar ?) i.e. the (2) Sacred Lots Stones (Urrim ve Thummim) which were deposited specifically ‘closest to the breast of the High Priest’ who served in the Temple of YHWH at Jerusalem –

Just as the 144,000 Holy Martyrs who fought the Beast Worshippers (‘as sacred First Fruits offered as a sacrifice to YHWH’) were ‘deposited’ closest to the Throne of YHWH in the Heavenly Temple as we see in the Book of Revelation –

In fact these 144,00 Holy Warriors were specifically allowed to stand in front of the line of cultic priests etal. (i.e. in a Place of Honour) i.e.even in front of the 4 Chayyot (‘living Creatures’) and also in front of the 24 Levitical Elders in the Image of YHWH’s Temple Throne Room…i.e. Holy Martyrs are closest to the face[s] of YHWH on his golden Throne.

See Rev chapter 14:

And the 144,000 sang a New Song (i.e. of Military Victory) before the face[s] of the Throne
And lo, they stood before the 4 living creatures & before the face[s] of the 24 Elders –
And No Man could learn the New Song except the 144,000 re-purchased from the Land
(i.e. of Yisro’el)

So....Why specifically 24 (12 x 2) from Each Tribe in OT Book of 1 Chronicles?

And Why specifically 24 (12 x 2) Elders in the NT 'Book of Revelation'?

This Sacred Doubling (12 x 2 = 24) also has an echo of the sacred 24 total used elsewhere in Hebrew writings – e.g. if one adds together the 12 Patriarchs – sons of Yakkov or Yisro’el, i.e. the 12 tribes) and the sacred number 12 taken from the 12 pre-Yakkov Patriarchs counting from [H] enoch to Abraham…

The Number 24 also represents specifically the Number of Active Priestly Levetical Families which served in the 2nd Temple of Herod in Jerusalem in their Bi-Annual rotation of Priestly Service known as Calendricals (i.e. twice a year, for a solid week at a time beginning at 6pm Friday evenings (Shabbath) and ending just before sundown on every Friday afternoon – i.e. before the Shabbath officially began) – we see lists and lists and lists of these 24 priestly families all enumerated in great (and to us moderns, often ‘tiresome’) ritual detail in the Dead Sea Scroll Material (e.g. 4Q329) found at Qumran dating from c. 50 BCE – clearly to the Dead Sea Scroll Zadokites, these lists and sacred numbers were of vital importance to ‘Qol Yisro’el’ (=All Israel)

We also note that both 12s and 24s are among the sacred numbering systems in the whole Book of Revelation’ – and can also be found even in what may have been the original exact numbering of the Aramaic original poetical stanzas – in fact the whole book (if we gather together all the scraps and Greek copies into one pile) could fairly easily be divided into 144 stanzas of Qinah Lament Poetry of 12 lines each, for example – here are some stanzas in sets of 12 lines.


12 Line Stanza:

Yohanon, who dwell amongst the Exiles of Yisroel amongst the Goyim in Asia
(Being a Fellow Sufferer in the Tribulation of the Righteous in the Last Days
Even in the Patience and Suffering of all the Saints of the Most High
And dwelling upon an Island which is called PATMOSH
Even for the preaching of the Word of EL abroad to his Elect Ones
And for the Proclamatiion of the Testimony of his Messiah)
Fell into the Spirit on the First Day of Yom Aseret Teshuvah
And lo, I heard a QOL like unto a Shofar which seemed to speak to me, saying
Yohanon ! I AM THE ALEPH and the TAV, the First Begotten of all Creation
And I turned around me to hear the Voice which seemed to speak to me,
And lo, having turned, I saw with my eyes, One like unto a Bar Enasha (a Son of Man)
And behold, he was walking between the Seven Golden Menorath.

12 Line Stanza:

And I looked & behold, I saw: The Seven Stars of Heaven were being held in his Right Hand
And from his Lips dangled the Sharp Two-Edged Sword with which he will Slay all the Goyim
And he wore a clean white Linen Lebush to his ankles, and a Golden Girdle around his Waist
And his whole person shone like the Sun at Noon - with his face as white as lamb's wool
And his skin the very Clour of freshly fallen snow upon the ground in Winter
And behold, his eyes seemed to dart forth as Flames of Fire in all directions at once.
And lo, his feet glowed blindingly, as Bronze just taken from the Furnice glows brightly.
And as to the utterance of his Voice –lo, it was as the Thunder of the Many Waters
And when I saw him, I fainted dead away at his feet, almost lifeless
But placing his Right Hand upon my shoulder, he lifted me up saying Yohanon, Fear Not !
But go, take you an Ink Horn & set in letters upon a Scroll all which you shall be shown
And proclaim it abroad to the 7 Yahadim which are scattered amongst the goyim in Asia.

12 Line Stanza:

And when I stood up, I looked and behold, I saw: A Gate was set in the midst of Heaven
And lo, a Voice like a Shofar in the day of Battle spoke to me saying, Yohanon ! Fear Not !
I AM METATRON even 'he who Stands Behind the Throne of the Most High' -
Even He who holds in his Right hand the Seven Stars of Heaven
[in the margin: these are the 7 Spirits of EL which roam the whole Land of Yisro'el]
And when he finished speaking, Terror immediately seized my Spirit
So that maiing obeissance to Him that spoke, I again fainted dead away at his feet.
But he again stood me up on my feet and touching my Shoulder hee spake to me saying:
Yohanon, Worship me not ! For I am only a Servant of the Most High, like yourself !
Even as it is written: Hear O Yisro'el, YHWH is your clan god: you will worship YHWH alone !
But take courage & ascend now through the Gate which you see in front of you
So that you might be shown the Mysteries of EL that you may set them down
And proclaim them to the Elect scattered among the Peoples & Kindreds & Tongues & Nations.

12 Line Stanza:


And behold, the Spirit of the Most High fell mightilly upon me as I began ascending upwards
And passing through the Gate in front of me, I heard the sound of a Mighty Rushing of Wind
Which sounded to me like the Roar of Thunder, even as the Sound of Many Waters.
And I looked, & behold, I saw: A Watcher bathed in clouds flying across the face of Heaven
And a brilliant Rainbow shone brightly above his head enveloping him in light
And lo, his whole Countenance shone like the Brightness of the Sun in its Strength
And both his legs were gleaming as Two Pillars [of the Temple], even as the Flame of Fire
With his Left Leg upon the [Brazen] Sea, and his Right Leg upon the Land [of Yisro'el]
And behold, he held in his Right Hand a Megillah written both in front and in back.
And while it was unrolled before him the Watcher began to roar with the Roaring of a Lion
And I heard the Voice of One standing near me say, Go to, Take the Scroll from the Watcher
And I walked over to the Watcher & said to him, 'Give me the Megillah in my hands.'

12 Line Stanza:

And the Watcher handed me the Scroll saying: Yohanon ! Take ye this Scroll and eat it up.
For lo, although it shall taste upon your Tongue as sweet as the Honeycomb
Later, it will start to burn as bitter as the Gall deep within your stomach !
And I took the Megillah from the Right Hand of the Watcher, and ate it up.
And behold, it tasted upon my tongue as sweet as the Honeycomb
But afterwards it burned within my Stomach as Gall burns inside a man.
And he standing near me spoke saying, Go, Prophecy to the Elect of Israel scattered abroad
And proclaim all what you see to the 7 Yahadim dwelling amongst all the Goyim in Asia
Even to them who are exiled abroad, even among many Tongues & Peoples & Kindreds & Kings
Yea, prophesy Thou to each of the Angels of the Yahadim of the Elect Ones dispersed at Ephesus & Smyrna
And to the Angels of the Yahadim in Exile at Pergamon & Thyatira & Laodaeceia
And to the Angels of the Yahadim scattered among the goyim at Sardis & also at Philadelphia.

12 12 12 12 12 etc.

Now when one continues this process throughout the whole of the 'Book' of Revelation's mangled Greek hand written copies, one arrives at exactly 144 stanzas of 12 lines each, which surely must not be a coincidence on the part of the original writer - despite all the changes in the texts copies over the centuries...

(I suppose if you were really clever you could easily subdivide the 12 liners into 2x 6 line stanzas and get 288 stanzas or double them into 24 line stanzas and get (shock and awe !) another sacred number, viz. 72 the number of 'gentile-goyim nations under the Eternal Dominion of Israel' - with 72 also being the Number of the 72 Sacred Shemot (Secret Names) of YHWH their clan god.....

But then we would have to start getting into some heavy hitting Gemmatria !!

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Hi Again, MyEyesAreWatching--

Ref: 144,00 and Sacred Gematrial Quantities in the ‘Book of Revelation…’

As I mentioned in my last, there is noticeable in ancient Herbrew Apocalyptic literature (e.g. the Aramaic and Hebrew sections to the Book of Daniel, or the Book of Zechariah , or The Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch or the Book of the Testament of Moses [aka Book of Jubilees] etc.) in general a Process known as ‘Sacred Quantitative Doubling’ (and also ‘Sacred Halving’ of numbers)

And this can also be noticed without looking too far in the ‘Book of Revelation’ (see how 144,000 is 1 Chronicles 27 where we have = 144,000 x 2 = 288,000…) and this 144,000 has not only specific Cultic Temple & Military Overtones (q.v.) but also specifically Apocalyptic-Prophetic ones especially in the books used as literary sources by the Author of the Book of Revelation e.g. the Book of Daniel (compiled in its present form c. 165 BCE) where we see phrases like

“a TIME, 2 TIMES and ½ a TIME”

which can be seen as a process of repeated ‘doubling’ of quantities i.e. ½ x 2 = 1 & the newly arrived Quantity (1) is then doubled again i.e. 1 x1 = 1; then the newly arrived Quantity is then doubled again by the same process 1 x 2 = 2

ergo: a series of : ½, 1 and 2 =
a time, two times and half a time,
which ends up as a new sacred number 3.5 whicch when doubled again produces 7xx and when Doubled again produces 14xxxx and when doubled again produces 28xxxx &tc.

The Number 7 as we have said above is a recurring ‘sacred number’ in the Book of Revelation especially by noting all of 7 sets of numbered plagues represented by e.g. Seals, Trumpets, Bowls-Vials, Watchers, Wonders etc. – all arrived at by doubling the base sacred Quantity 3.5 (three and a half) to get 7

Also: in Hebrew (and in earlier Sumero-Akkadian) gemmatrical symbolic Numerological Systems in the ancient world, (zeroes) 0s could be added to any sacred number ‘without affecting its essential nuance or meaning’ – thus 7 and 70 and 700 & 7000 are all basically viewed ‘spiritually’ (i.e. gematrically) as the same essential thing (this despite our modern day more ‘scientific’ way of looking at exact quantities & numbers &tc.).

Therefore 14 could be seen as a sacred unit (say, the Simple Base-Gematrial equivalent of the Hebrew letters for the name of D-V-D = i.e. king David and the Royal Line of Judah –

REFERENCE - Standard Base Face Value Gematria (aka 'Mishphar HaPhanim') leaving out 'final letter values'

Aleph = 1,
Beth = 2,
Gimmel = 3,
Daled = 4
He = 5,
Vav = 6
Zayin = 7
Chet = 8,
Dtet = 9,
Yod = 10
Kaph = 20,
Lamed = 30,
Mem= 40,
Nun = 50,
Samek = 60,
‘Qayin = 70,
Phe = 80,
Tsadeh = 90,
Quph = 100,
Resh = 200,
Shin/Sin = 300
and Tav = 400…etc. –

So the letters D-V-D using the most basic standard ‘face value Hebrew Gemmatria – this Daviddicc code would work out to Daled (4) + Vav (6) + Daled (4) = 14 (=DVD = David/ 14)

Notice all the fake groups [set out in ‘even’ sets of 14] in the Midrashically Gematrial Genealogies in the 1st Greek Canonical Gospel (‘according to Matathias, whoever he was) where the author groups the ‘genealogy of the Messiah of Yisro’el’ into (3) specific groups of 14 – based on the gemmatrial name of DVD (David) –

And of course in so doing, the writer of the1st canonical Greek Gospel had to completely leave out several ‘historical’ clan chiefs-kings of Yehud (Judah) along the way in order to make 14s always come out ‘even’ in his lists [i.e. he had to omit the reigns of Ahaziah, Joash & Amaziah etal.] for ‘Matthew’s ‘Midrashic Numerological System of 14’s to work’ on paper…historical accuracy takes 2nd place to midrashic gemmatrial sacred numbering systems not only in the canonical 1st Greek gospel ‘according to Matthew’ but in Apocalyptic works as well – in other words, the writer compilers play ‘fast and loose with the facts…’ for the sake of maintaining or creating sacred numbering etc.

In the ‘Book of Revelation’ we can also see use of the Danielic “a TIME, 2 TIMES and ½ a TIME” by a SINGLE process of Quantitative Doubling – we’ve seen how by DOUBLING 3.5 we can arrive at the Sacred Number of 7 (both Cultically & Astrologically important to the Levantine Temple Cults of the ancient Middle East since they represented the 7-eyes of any specific Creator Deity (e.g. Ra, or Baal or YHWH or Marduk or EL or Ptah &tc.) which ‘completely encircle roam the land’ = the sacred Quantity of the specific number 7 derived from the(specifically) 7 ‘visibly moving’ stars (i.e. able to be seen by the ‘naked eye’ i.e. without the use of modern telescopes !) in the Heavens against the background of ‘fixed stars in the Firmament’ e.g. what we call today the Sun, Moon, Mercury Venus, Mars, Jupiter & Saturn.

That is why there are 7 branches in a Jewish Menorah (representing astrologically the 7-lights of YHWH in the heavens &tc.) – a specific symbol which the author of the Book of Revelation makes recurring use of throughout his book.

Notice if we continue the Doubling Process – thus 3.5 x 2 = 7 = via a process of the SECOND DOUBLING of 3.5 we arrive at 14, the sacred number for the Name of King David and, by extension, the sacred Number for the Future Apocalyptic Kingdom of the Messiah ‘which shall reign as long as the Sun and the Moon exist…’

In other words, all these sacred Quantities are traceable back to Daniel’s ‘a Time, Two Times and Half a Time’ i.e. 3.5
And by adding ‘Gematrial Zeros’ we can get 70 – which is the number of Gentile ‘goyim’ Nations who are to fight against YHWH and Israel in the Last Days (although in some ancient manuscript traditions, this 70 is represented sometimes as 72), and by adding a couple more Zeroes we can get the number of Dead from the Earthquake (7,000) in Rev. 11:13 etc.
[‘At that very Hour there was a giant Earthquake …in which 7,000 persons were killed…’]
Ditto for a 3rd DOUBLING of 3.5 into 14 = the sacred Gemmatrial number for David (D-V-D) and his Kingdom to which more Zeroes can be added = i.e. 144,000.00 where 14 and another sacred gematrial number (12) are ‘spiritually’ combined.
So an by ‘extended’ process of ‘Quantitative Doubling’ we now can see that Daniel’s (‘a Time, two Times and half a Time’) are gematrially (i.e. numerologically in a sacred Apocalyptic sense) directly related to that other sacred quantity of Holy Righteous Virgin Male Martyrs in Rev. chapters 7 and 14 = i.e. 144,000 - which when doubled again as in 1 Chronicles chapter 27 - the 144,000 morphs into another sacred number i.e. 288,000 = the number of tribal ‘fighting musters in Israel’ comprising David’s so-called ‘standing’ army in Jerusalem, which the Chronicler divided into their 12 tribes for Yisroe’l’s Holy Wars against the Goyim (i.e. Gentile) nations.

If one Quantum of this Sacred Unit of ‘Time’ in the Book of Daniel (‘stolen’ by the writer of the Book of Revelation) is calculated in terms of a single Year, you would get 1 year + 2 years + ½ a year – the amount of time that Antiocchus IV (‘Epiphanios’ the Revealer) occupied Yerushalayim in c. 167 BCE, the so- called ‘Toq’ebah Which Causes Desolation’ (=Abomination of Desolation) period of the Maccabbean Revolt where the Syrian Greek Rulers (descendants of the generals of Alexander the Great) were forced out of Judaea—all with the (ironically !) military help of the Roman Army who had Syrian Greeks as a common Enemy with the Judaeans at the time !

This ‘3.5 year period’ ( =a Time, Two Times and Half a Time) is also calculated as 42 months (see Rev. chapter 11) and also 1290 days, the period of the ‘preaching of repentance of the 2 Witnesses’ (‘who rise from the dead after a period of 3.5 days…) which also figures in the weird account in Rev. chapter 11.

Also we see a process of Doubling when we consider the aforementioned Q’ozen ‘Breastplate’ of the High Priest in the Temple of YHWH at Jerusalem which held the 12 tribal stones within his sacred vestments was folded DOUBLE to form a Pouch holding the Urrim ve Thummim (lit. ‘Condemnation’ and ‘Innocence’ aka the Aleph (first letter of Urrim) and the Tav (first letter of Thummim) aka: ‘The Alpha & The Omega’, in Greek – sound familiar ?) i.e. the (2) Sacred Lots Stones (Urrim ve Thummim) which were deposited specifically ‘closest to the breast of the High Priest’ who served in the Temple of YHWH at Jerusalem…

Notice phrases like : Pay Babylon back DOUBLE what she did to us (e.g. the vitriol at the end of Psalms 137)

Also, we can see the process of Sacred Doubling beeing an integral feature of the 'Dualist' Persian Zoroastrian Religion which was introduced into Eretz Yisro'el during the 200 year Persian Occupation of Palestine (BCE 531 to BCE 331) where Paired Opposites come into play (light v. dark, love v. hate, life v. death, above v. below, flesh v. spirit, Heaven v. Hell, YHWH v. Shaitan-Belial, chosen people v. goyim, righteous-holy v. the wicked-evil ones, etc. all of which was introduced from Persia into palestine and had a lasting 'theological' effect on later OT writings as well as the Dead Sea Scroll covenanters and the Hebrew and Aramaic writings of the so-called Inter-Testamental period (e.g. the Books of Daniel and 1 Henoch) - and of course the author of the Book of Revelation too

We see lots and lots of paired opposities :

The Whore of Babylon v. The Bride of the Lamb
The Beast Worshippers v. the 144,000 Righteous Martyrs
The Brand-Mark of the Beast Worshippers v. the Seal of the Righteous Martyrs
(hence, 'those marked for Extermination' during the Tribulation Plagues v. 'those sealed for Protection' during it)
The Abyss v. the Throne of EL in Heaven
The Keys to the Abyss v. the Keys to the Kingdom of David 'which when opened no son of man may shut'
The Black Urrim sacred Lot Stone ('condemnation') v. the White Thummim Sacred Lot Stone ('exoneration')
(represented by the Aleph and the Tav e.g. the Alpha and the Omega)

Then of course the Deuteronomy like Blessings and Curses - Repent ! lest I come upon you in the heat of my Indignation and remove the Menorah from its place in the Temple ! v. The Blessings of the Messiah ('But to him who overcomes with patience the Times of Trial to the end even Death I shall give him...)

&tc &tc. &tc. (probably more than a dozen or more of these opposite pairings in the Book if you look for them)

And also the opposites expressed in almost operetic scenes in the Book of Revelation e.g. the Lament over Babylon which shows 'once sailors and merchants FLOCKED TO TRADE WITH YOU praising your Glory...' now v. 'those same Sailors & Merchants STAND AFAR OFF wailing your destruction' etc.

So there is a lot more to the Numbering Systems in the book of Revelation than meets the Eye - more proof the book is the product of a a Literary Compilation rather than 'real life visions' in a cave (with or without hallucinogenicc drugs !)

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Hi again, Our Eyes Are Watching You

Here’s some More on the 144,000 Virgin Male Psalm Singers in the Book of Revelation...

Notice there is (again !) a clear under-current of the specific Language of Holy War (i.e. using the language of ancient Victory Psalm Singing) in almost all of the sudden (and intrusive !) Temple Outbursts in the Book of Revelation – which is surely not by chance – it was a ‘prophecy’ in the writer's mind of the eventual ‘Victory opf the chosen People of Yisro'el over the Gentiles’ i.e. the Romans during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (AD 66-72) much like the author(s) of the War Scroll viewed the world in the 'Final Battle against the Kittim in the Last Days...'

It is not labelled as such, but it seems likely here that we might well be dealing with the same 144,000 Male-Virgins Group in the 'Final-Victory-Over-the-Goyim-Singers in the Heavenly Temple' in Rev. chapter 15 (whereas these psalmsters are named specifically as the 144,000 in chapters 7 and 14 - but we must remember that we are dealing with ancient Greek scraps of copies, and we have no proof that the author-compilers of the book as we read it to-day ever finished it....)

See : Rev 15

And I looked, and behold, I saw what looked like a sea of Glass mingled with Fire
And lo, standing on top of this [Firey] Glass Sea were all those who won Victory over the Beast
And over all those who were Branded with his Image or had the Number of his Name on their flesh..
And behold: they were handed golden Harps in their Right Hands with which to chant Psalms
And lo, they all began to sing the Song of Moses, even the servant of EL…

Later they all began to chant at once the Song of the Ram, singing:
Great and marvelous are your deeds, YHWH El-Elyon.
Righteous & True are your Ways, Thou Eternal King !.
Therefore Who will not fear you, O YHWH and bring Glory to your name?
For you alone are holy - yea the Goyim will come from afar to worship before your face[s]
For all of your Righteous Acts have been made manifest for all to see !

For the imagery of the Sea of Crystal and Fire, see the Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch (1 Enoch) 14 :8-12

'In the course of my Night Visions, I looked, and behold, the Vision Clouds appeared and began to lift me upwards - and they continually drew me higher and higher until I could makee out All the Courses of the Stars, and as I hastened past the Storehouses where the Lightnings were kept...

And lo, the Vision Winds flew me upwards even higher still until they carried me into the highest Heaven, where I drew near to a Wall built entirely of Crystal which was surrounded by tongues of Fire: and I became afraid....

And passing through the Tongues of fire I approached a Large Temple in Heaven built of solid crystal: and lo, its Walls were tesselated crystalite, and its Floor as clear as glass - its Ceiling was like the path of the Stars and the Lightnings which I passed before - and behold, between them were the fiery cherubim, whose heaven above them as (clear as) water. Flames of Fire surrounded them, and its portals also blazed with Firey Flames...'


Although the text of the 'Book of Revelation' states that the 144,000 (or some Victorious Group very much like it) sang 'the Song of Moses, servant of EL', it does not actually 'quote the actual words to The Song of Moses' - the writer (whoever he was) only states that 'they began to chant The Song of Moses' - why?

It may well his own way of telling his target (anti Roman) Judaean audience that they were living in dangerous times (i.e. during a War) = 'Too dangerous to quote in full - you know the text - I gave you the Incipit - now go look up the actual text in the Psalter - we don't dare print the text out in full for fear of the Romans...'

And the author does so throughout the book - which is why the Rabbi's to-day often have a deeper appreciation for the 'Book of Revelation' than do Christians, who are often lacking in reading knowledge of the so-called Herbrew Old Testament and Apocrypha-Pseudiopigrapha (much less of the Dead Sea Scroll fragments and the Targumim derived from them !)



In other words, the Author-compiler of the Book of Revelation (at least as we now have it in the few mangled Greek texts we do have at our disposal) merely ALLUDES to a fuller/longer Hebraic text which the Author was evidently afraid (or merely trying to save space/time?) of writing out in full, since the actual text cited were, you guessed it, full of anti Roman anti Gentile Seditionist Holy War Language which he was applying to his own day, i.e. at the time of the Roman Military Pause (AD 69) during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE)

Here is one of the many Targum Versions of Exodus 15 (=The ‘Song of Moses’ ) - the words of this text (at least in one version or another...) were chanted/sung by 2nd Temple Levetical priests as part of the Daily (Divided into Morning & Afternoon) Tamid Psalms - as usio-liturgical cultic sung accompaniments to the twice -daily Morning and Evening Ram Sacrifices (Tamidim) in the 2nd Temple of Herod -

And this text along with Psalm 92 was chosen for use specifically on the Sabbath i.e. as the new set of priestly rotation took over the Temple Service (in rotation of 24 families throughout the ritual 2nd Temple calendar-year) - further proof that the author-compiler of the 'Book of Revelation' was a priest in the 2nd Temple [or more likely, was thoroughly trained as a Zadokite priest at Qumran/Seccacah wating for the Messiah(s) to save Yisro'el 'in the Final Battle against the Sons of Darkness in the Last Days')


Exodus 15

Then sang Moses & the sons of Yisro’el chanted this Psalm to YHWH , singing :

I will sing to YHWH - for he hath triumphed gloriously:
Both Horse and his Rider he has cast headlong into the sea.
YHWH is a man shattering Wars !
YHWH turns all the Wars of the Gentiles to Vapour :

YHWH, the clan god of Yisro'el, is our Salvation
Yea, a Victor over the goyim & Protector of his People

Therefore we will build a home for Him YAH is his name !
As my father's clan-god, so I will exalt him !

For lo, the Depths covered over all of his Enemies:

Yea they sank into the bottom as a Stone.
Your right hand, O YHWH, became glorious in power:

By the Power of your Right hand, O YHWH
You have dashed the Goyim to pieces !
Yea, in Your Excellent Greatness, you have overthrown them all
Even those who dared to rise up against you in battle !
You sent forth your wrath against them:
Even as a Mighty Fire to consume them all -
Even as Flames devour dry stubble !

For the Enemy said in his heart,
‘I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil !

My anger will be glutted upon them;
I will destroy them with the Sword
My Right Hand shall wipe them out !'

But you stretched forth your right hand against your Enemies
And lo, the earth swallowed them all up !
You led forth the people you Redeemed in your Chesed:
You have guided them in your Power to lead them to your holy Habitation.

The Goyim heard of this and were afraid –
Lo, panic took hold of the inhabitants of Palestina !
Yea, Fear and dread fell upon them !
By the greatness of thine arm they were all lifeless as Stone

That is, until Your People pass over, O YHWH
Even they which you have redeemed from Death.
For you will cause your Chosen People to return to their own land
And plant them in the Mountain of your inheritance.


Who is like you, O YHWH among all the gods of the goyim ?
What clan god like you, glorious in holiness ?
Or who is like to you, fearful in Praises,
Performing signs & wonders for the sake of his Chosen People ?

YHWH rules as King for ever & ever !
Yea, in the same place, O YHWH,
Even which you caused to be built
Yea, the place for your yourself to Tabernacle in, O YAH,
Even in the Sanctuary which your own hands have made !


Later in the text of Revelation chapter 15, we read that the 144,000 Virgin Male Martyrs began to chant what was called the Song of the Ram,

whose contents (see numbers 1-5 below) are all 'stolen-borrowed-adapted' roughtoy paraphrased words (in Aramaic Targum fashion) from the Hebrew Psalter - most of which had Holy War (Victory over the Gentiles) overtones


And they all began to chant the Song of the Ram, singing :

l. Great and marvelous are your deeds, YHWH El-Elyon.

2. Righteous & True are all your ways, O Eternal King !.

3. Who will not fear you, O YHWH and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy.

4. All the Goyim will come from afar to worship before your face[s]

5. Yea, all of your Righteous Acts have been made manifest for all to see ! “

MORE 'SOURCE MATERIAL' STOLEN from the OT in the SONG of the RAM

e.g. [‘Great & Wonderful are thy Works, O YHWH] =
For # 1 above, the author's 'source material' was evidently another Sabbath 'Anti Gentile' Tamid Psalm 92

It is good to praise YHWH & make music to your name, O Most High,
proclaiming your Chesed in the morning & your Emunah at night,
Even to the music of the ten-stringed lyre & the melody of the harp.
For you make me glad by your deeds O YHWH !

I sing for joy at what your hands have done.
How Great & Wonderful are your works, ,O YHWH !

For you, O YHWH are forever exalted!
For in that Day your enemies O YHWH will all be overthrown

And all of your enemies shall perish;
Yea, all of the evildoers will be scattered like dust

But the Righteous will flourish like a Palm tree,
Yea, they will grow tall like a cedars of Lebanon;
For they shall all be planted in the house of YHWH
They will flourish in the Courts of our clan-god.
They will still bear fruit in ripe old age,
And will all remain forever young and green,

Proclaiming his righteousness all day long
Singing: ‘YHWH is Righteous ! ‘

Also: Psalm 111


Great are the works of YHWH - they are pondered by all who delight in them.
Glorious & Majestic are his Deeds & his Righteousness endures forever.
He remembers his covenant forever & shown his Chosen People the power of his works,
Even handing over to them the lands of the Goyim

For the works of his hands are Faithful & Righteous
And all of his Oracles are Trustworthy !

For # 2 above ['Righteous & True are all your ways, O Eternal King'..]

see Psalm 145

YHWH's Oracles are Trustworthy
Even in all he promises
Yea, he is Faithful in all he does !
YHWH is righteous in all his ways

And he is Faithful in all he does.
Great is YHWH & worthy of praise !
One generation to another tell of your mighty acts

They speak of the glorious splendor of your Majesty—
And we meditate on your Wonderful Deeds !

Which tell of the glory of your Kingdom & speak of your might,
o that all the Gentiles may know of your mighty Deeds of Salvation

And the glorious Splendour of your Kingdom.
For your Kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And your Dominion endures through all generations.


YHWH protects those that revere him,
But in that day the wicked he will destroy utterly !


Psalm 99:3, Psalm 86:9

For the source material in #3 above ('Therefore Who will not fear you, O YHWH and bring Glory to your name?
For you alone are holy - yea the Goyim will come from afar to worship before your face[s])?

The Author of the Book of Revelation lifted-stole his images in two Anti Gentile Ram Song Lines from the Book of Jeremiah 10: 6-10


Who is like unto you YHWH for you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
Who should not fear you, O King of the Goyim ?
This is your due. among all the wise men of the Gentiles

and in all their Kingdoms, there is no one like you.

The Gentiels are all senseless and foolish;
they are all taught by worthless wooden idols.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers intto their gods.
But YHWH alone is the true clan god ;
even the ELOHIM that gives life, the Eternal King.
When he is angry, the land of Yisro'el trembles;
the goyim cannot endure his Righteous Indignation


For the 'source material for # 4 above (='All the Goyim will come from afar to worship before your face[s] )
we only have to take a quick look at the anti Gentile language found in Trito Isaiah chapter 60


In that Day, the Gentiles will come to your light,
And their kings shall see to the brightness of your dawn.

The wealth on the Goyim will be brought to you,
And to you the riches of the Gentiles will flow

Surely the islands look to me; in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,
bringing your sons from afar, with their silver and gold,
Even to the honor of YHWH your clan god, the Holy One of Israel,
For he has endowed you with Splendor.



“Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you.

Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
Yea, their kings led in triumphal procession.
And that nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
yea, it will be utterly exterminated !

The sons of your conquerors will bow down before you;
And all who despise you will grovel at your feet
They will call you the City of YHWH - Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

In that day, you will suck the Milk of the Gentiles

Yea you shall be nursed at royal breasts of the Goyim !
Then you will know that I, YHWH, am your Savior !



For the last stanza (''For all of your Righteous Acts have been made manifest for all to see") we see the author-compiler of the Book of Revelation stole-adapted-borrowed his source material text from the anti Gentile Targum of Psalms 98, another Victory Psalm



Sing to YHWH a New Song - for he has done marvelous things;
His right hand & his holy arm have worked Salvation for Yisroel !

YHWH has made his salvation known

He has revealed his righteousness to the Goyim !

For he has remembered his love & his faithfulness to Israel;
all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our clan-god !

Shout for joy to YHWH, all the earth
Burst into jubilant song with music;

Make music to YHWH with the harp,
With the harp and the sound of singing,

And with trumpets and the blast of the ram’s horn—
Shout for joy before YHWH, the King !

Which is even more clear hard evidence (by analysing all the mangled Greek texts themeselves) that the author-compiler of the 'Book of Revelation' was making clear and abundant re-use of much older 'prophetic scraps' from well-known Hebrew texts to score politico-religious points with his audience - re-interpreting the old, rather than seeing 'anything new' in terms of prophetic visions ...

reply to post by marg6043


Not so, friend. I was a bible believer for most of my life. Not getting answers to certain questions led me to years of studying and researching the bible along with Hebrew and Greek.

I say Revelationof John is a fake...because we will never see a revived Israel.

...we will never see Jerusalem tread under foot by foreign armies.

...we will never see a one world government.

...we will never see a mark, teg, tatoo, RFID chip, or some other device that will control monetary transactions.

... we will never see calamities so terrible that they pollute their homelands and even oceans and continents.

... we will never see a third of the oceans die, or a third of the grasslands and woods die, nor even an event in which a third of the world dies... nope, not a chance.

... we will never see things in the heavens, like a comet or asteroid or a brown dwarf, that will strike fear into men's hearts.

... we will never see the lands of the Middle East united against a revived Israel.

... we will never see the old Roman Empire/Europe United with a body of leaders that direct economic, political, and military policy across the globe.

Nope...Revelation of John...what a bunch of hooey.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Hi Already Gone

So… you actually DO see a Heavenly Jerusalem full of Triumphant Righteous Gentile-Hating Jews suddenly skidding down from the orbit of, oh, I dunno, Jupiter…. and all the war-torn non-Jews/Gentiles – you know, all those unclean dogs who lost the War against Israel (i.e. 99.99% of the world…) are NOW carrying on their shoulders all these ‘Triumphant Judaeans’ who had been scattered amongst the goyim all those centuries (=aka ‘unclean gentile idolaters’) bringing into the ‘holy’ city of Yerushlayim the total Wealth of the world’s goyim as War Tribute (=more than 1 Quadrillion US Dollars worth in today’s money) in the form of (naturally !) Gold and Silver bars and precious stones?

Here’s a few verses for you to try on for size: see if they fit reality ….

And I looked & behold, I saw: the Holy City filled with the Cavod-YHWH
And lo, it was glowing like Diamonds or like the glint of purest Crystalite,
And behold, it held the brilliance of Jasper Stone flashes in the light
And around her a high wall with 12 Gates, inscribed with the names of the 12 Tribes of Isra’el
And lo, three Gates faced the East, and three Gates faced the West
And three Gates faced the South and three of her Gates faced the North.

And lo, the Wall had 12 Foundations each inscribed with the Name of a Prophet
And behold, her 12 Gates were each made of the purest Pearl stone
And the streets of the City were all paved with the purest Gold, like perfect Glass
But no Temple did I see therein residing in her midst
For the god YHWH El Elyon stands as her Temple within her,
Nor did the Light of Sun nor Moon shine there, for the Cavod-YHWH was her light Source.


And lo, the Gentiles who had survived the Tribulation were all being marched into the City
Andd by the Glow of its Light, I could see the Kings of the Goyim pouring all their Gold into her
Even the Goyim whose were defeated in the Battle of YHWH, bringing Tribute to the Elect Ones
Nor were the Gates of the City ever shut by Night, for Days and Nights no longer existed
And no Defiling Idols of the Gentiles were allowed in, nor Adulterers or False Witnesses either
But only those whose Names were inscribed in the Book of Life were allowed entrance.

And lo, the Golden Throne of YHWH sat gleaming in the midst of the holy City
And the Elect Ones gathered all around it in a circle to look upon YHWH’s Face[s]
For In That Day the Elect of Israe’l shall see his Face[s] branded with HaShem on their foreheads
And behold, one of the Watchers who stood by me showed me the Pure River of Life
Which flowed outwards from the midst of the Throne of EL
Even as clean and pure as the purest Crystal for clarity

And I looked, and lo, 12 Thrones were being set up in the midst of Heaven
And all those who sat upon them were clothed in the whitest Linen Lebushim
And the Power of Just Judgement was given to them, to pay back the Goyim each their due
And lo, in the midst of the Broad Avenues, the Watcher showed me, behold, the Tree of Life
Which bore upon its branches 12 Different Fruits, one for Each of the 12 Tribes of Israe’l
And whose Leaves the defeated Gentiles were using as Medicines to treat their Battle Scars.

Well, maybe now that the ultra-dirty underbelly of Goldman Sachs etal. stealing literally a Thousand Billion USD $ from the coffers of the world’s goyim (all in accordance with holy 'scripture' of ccourse e.g. trito-Isaiah chapter 60) is slowly coming out with the infamous Mortgage Backed Security Crises unfolding as we write, you might be actually on to something there ! (talk about 'Milking the Blood of the Gentiles...' in the Last Days !)

But I digress….

Originally posted by redrose123
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Albert Pike in his book Morals and Dogma Scottish Rite of Free Masonary. Said that the book of Revelations was an ancient writing one of other old writing found in Egypt. That it had been stolen and placed in the Bible where it didn't belong. It is believed by the Illuminati that it belongs to them. That it is their job to bring it about. Don't be surprised that current events follow that pattern. It Albert Pike was right. The the book of Revelations would be another forgery in the New Testament. There would be no way John wrote it on Patmos.

I really don't think this is true...
...the Koine Greek of John in Revelation is like that in John's Gospel.

Wait a tick, although much debated, Jesus taught the author of many other Hebrew writings... So.......It seems chosen

reply to post by Sigismundus

As with many New Testament manuscripts...
...'the key is at the door' in understanding their content.

The book of Revelation begins with the words...
... "The Revelation of Jesus Christ... (Revelation 1:1)

What John has done...
...is to compile Old Testament history, law and prophecy...
...to describe how they find their fulfillment in 'Jesus Christ'.

Most people rush off and start applying the symbols to their own contemporary world...
...but rarely ask the question...What does this OT symbol say about Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by Jordan River
Wait a tick, although much debated, Jesus taught the author of many other Hebrew writings... So.......It seems chosen

edit on 15-6-2011 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)

All the Hebrew OT authors were dead before Jesus was born.