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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Sigismundus
I agree with you, as with everything been passed down, written and talk about as in the bible is all man made and bias, the stories in the bible, including the "revelation" are nothing but the imagination of many authors.
But don't tell that to the bible believers because they will never do the research to find the truth as long as is not part of the bible itself.
Originally posted by Jordan River
All ancient prophecy has come and happened.
. Its the interpretation that never seems to be understood. Until too late
Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by troubleshooter
You Wrote: 'The Koine Greek of John in Revelation is like that in John's Gospel...'
Absolutely No Thing can be FURTHER from the Truth than your statement above: it is a Lie - oft repeated by 'persons of blind-faith' who have no Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew under their belt themselves, to calm their 'bible believing' sheeple into thinking (without evidence !) that there is some unity of theology between the anti Gentile, Torah-abiding, Nazorean Messianic rhetoric expressed in the Book of Revelation and other 'books' which later were voted into the New Testament Canon in the West.
In fact (and if you knew any Koine Greek at all yourself you'd know this to be true...) the comparatively smooth Koine Greek of the 4th canonical gospel ('according to Yohanon', (=John) whoever he was) is fairly grammatical (and deceptively simple as well as retaining a certain level of grammatical Greek nuance) whereas the Messy Baby often-Untranslatable Koine Greek found in all the mangled Greek manuscript copies of the so-called 'Book of Revelation' (e.g. P.Oxy VI 4499, Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Ephraemi Palimsest, Codex Sinaiticus and p44 etc.) is positively the WORST (ungrammatical) Greek in the entire New Testament ('full of the most outrageous Greek Grammatical Howlers' - C.K. Barrett, 1979) only partially overshadowed by the childish Greek of the 2nd Gospel ('according to Mark' whoever he was)...
Obviously it is an amateur (read: bad) 'Translation' of an Aramaic/Hebrew Ur-Text (original MS) since almost all of the bad Greek constructions in the Book of Revelation are 'Aramaisms' taken over literally (i.e. a literal translation of Aramaic words and phrases, as opposed to a smoother 'translation' of ideas expressed in the original Aramaic Ur-Text, which by the way, shows every indication of Qinah Lament Metre Poetry, not prose...)
PLEASE do not quote half-baked and erroneous notions from agenda-laden 'persons of Faith' (some of whom actually have the nerve to call themselves 'scholars' !) who are not familiar even with the basic linguistic facts of the Greek texts of the Book of Revelation - unless you have fully investigated them for yourself - which by your ignorant assumptions regarding authorhsip quoted above shows me to be the case...
And....take a Basic Koine Greek class - so you can compare the actual language expressions of the 4th canonical Greek Gospel ('John') with the mangy Greek of the Book of Revelation..
How could you even THINK about saying what you did, and post it on this thread.... much less believe it to be true ?
Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by troubleshooter
Hi Troubleshooter -
You Wrote: The book of Revelation begins with the words... "The Revelation of Jesus Christ... (Revelation 1:1)
Actually, in fact, the so-called 'Book of Revelation' circulated originally without a title (like the canonical Greek gospels originally almost certainly circulated for the first hundred years or so without any title or authorship-attributioin, but 'anonymously' ), and many of the earliest manuscript hand written copies of the 'Book of Revelation' do NOT contain the words 'of Iesous Christ' in the incipit at all...
A good way to learn about these things is to check the criticus apparatus in the Greek New Testament collections (Mssrs. Aland and Nestle etal. normally provide this feature - at least to a degree - in their constantly-being-revised editions of their reconstructions of what they believed the Greek NT to be originally - based on 5446 contradictory Greek mss - a sometimes highly arbitrary pursuit ! )
So in the future, try to be more careful of your textual facts before you post anything more like it on this thread... Otherwise, you'll only be exposed for your ignorance on this subject....yet again, I'm afraid...
Originally posted by Sigismundus
And more often than not, these are not literallly quoted in the form of the MT (Masoretic Text of the Old Testament) read by moderhn Rabinnic Jews and Protestants to-day
edit on 27-5-2011 by Sigismundus because: Re-titled slightly...
Originally posted by kallisti36
There were other books just as popular floating around, like the Shepard of Hermas, but every last one of them was weeded out of the Canon and yet the Revelation of John remains despite everything. I ask again, do you believe in divine providence?
Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by kallisti36
I think you are confusing two separate people here (i.e. two Johns - not related to each other) - the first John one of the 12 (i.e.Yohanon bar Zavdai (one of the 2 Benei Regesh ('sons of Thunder') one of the 12 from the Galilee - and also one of the so-called Pillars of the Church) and the second was 'Yohanon ha Zeqen, i.e. 'the Presbuteros' i.e. the 'Elder') the latter of whom is assocciated with the city of Ephesus, and who according to Polycarp lived to an advanced age, possibly c. 96 years old).
Apparently Yohanon (or even Yonah) was a common first name in the 1st century among Diaspora and Palestinian Jews (Shimeon bar Yonah, haKephah was 'Simon Peter, son of Yonah i.e. 'son of the Dove') - so it is easy to get Yohanons mixed up
- there might have been several of these Yohanons in the early Christian Nazorean Ebionite movement running around after the execution for 'armed sedition against Rome' of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir in 36 AD ('during The Insurrection' (see the ccanonical Greek gospel of 'Mark' - whoever he was - chapter 15:7-8 and also 'Luke' 's account of the arming of the Disciples with real swords in chapter 22:30-35) at the 100th anniversary of the Invasion of the Roman Army into Palestine by General Pompey...)
As for the author of the so-called 'Book of Revelation', absolutely NO THING is known about him except according to parts of the mangled Greek texts, he went by the common name 'Yohano'n (no father is listed to establish a firmer identity for him) and that he was trained in priestly matters to an extraordinary degree (or his literary source was, if this 'Yohanon' person was an editor for someone else's work...) - if he was not a 2nd temple Priest on active duty during the 1st failed Jewish War Against Rome ( fought between 66-72 CE ), then he may well have been onee of the 'Sons of Zadok' at Qumran - the persons responsible for the so-called Dead Sea Scroll fragmentary material locked up in sealed Cave Time Capsules in 68 CE (during the height o the War) and rediscovered beginning c. Nov 1946
'John the Elder' (whoever he really was...) apparently 'really met' Polycarp c. 85 AD (i.e. the later Bishop of Smyrna - who was said to have been then around age 15) 'in the flesh' when the Elder John was c. 95 years old and had to be carried into the Ephesian synagogue 'on a stretcher' (his few words at the time of his appearance in Ephsesus according to Polycarp was a single phrase - 'Little children...Love one another...' but it was widely believed at the time that the 'Ephesian John the Elder' had at least met R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (Gk. Iesous) in the flesh wwhich made the oldd man kind of a celebrity c. 85 AD
(unlike the gentile loving Saul of Tarsus aka 'Paul' who never did meet 'Iesous' in the actual flesh, but only in dreams and visions, like my gardner) =
Perhaps this John the Elder (who might have been responsible for a good chunk of material tha lay behind the text of the Greek epistles of 1, 2 and 3 John as well as the 4th gospel in parts) might have been 'one of the 70' apostoloi sent out by R. Yehoshua himself to preach to the 'lost sheep of the House of Israel scattered among the goyim-gentiles' i.e. two-by-two recorded in the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel ('acccording to Luke' whoever he was).
We do not know anything more substantial than that - there was an early tradition in the Nazorean Ebionite community that the Galilean disciple 'R. Yohanon bar Zavdai' was put to death by Herod Agrippa some time in the mid 40s CE along with his bother James (R. Yakkov bar Zavdai, the other 'son of thunder') - we have some words placed into the Greek Speaking Iesous in the canonical Greek gospels which betray such a dual martyrdom traddition see the gospel of 'Mark'
we have some words placed into the Greek Speaking Iesous in the canonical Greek gospels which betray such a dual martyrdom traddition see the gospel of 'Mark'
Then 'James and John', the two sons of Zebedee (recte: Zavdai) , came to him saying,“Rabbi' “we want you to do a Mitzvah for us... And Iesous answered saying, “What would you have the Son of Man (bar-Enasha) do for you?” and they replied saying,
“Let us each of us sit at your side, one on the right and one on the left hand side you assume the Throne of Glory and possess the Kingdom of the Father...'”
And Iesous answered them saying, Do you know what you are asking? Are you able to drink the cup that the bar Enasha (i.e. Son of Man) must drink, or be baptised into the same Baptism that the bar Enasha (Son of Man) is slated to be baptised into?
And they both said to him, Rabbi, we are able.
Then Iesous spake to them saying,
“You have both spoken well when you say you are able, for Amen, Amen, you both will drink the Cup that the Son of Man must drink and you both shall be baptized into the same Baptism that the Son of Man must be baptized with - but to sit on the Right Hand or the Left of the Son of Man when he assumes the Throne of his Kingdom is not for him to grant, but rather these Thrones belong only to those for whom they have been pre-destined [i.e. from the Beginning of Creation] ...
Tradition has it that John lived at Ephesus to an old age . . . We can neither prove nor disprove this. Sometimes it is said that John was martyred quite early . . . If true this would rule him out as the author of any of our NT books. But the reasons are scarcely sufficient. A seventh-century summary of a fifth-century writer, Philip of Side, reports that Papias said that John and James were killed by the Jews. But Philip was a careless writer and nobody else seems to have found the reference in Papias. The ninth-century George the Sinner repeats the statement about Papias, or at least one manuscript says he does. But there is no evidence that he has any authority for this other than Philip of Side or his summarizer. To this is added the evidence of some church calendars (i.e., calendars which indicate the days on which the saints were commemorated) where James and John are commemorated together . . . But it is scarcely necessary to point out that commemoration together does not mean that both were martyrs, and even if they were it does not mean that they were martyred at roughly the same time. Those who favor the early martyrdom take Mk. 10:39 as a prophecy after the event, and say it indicates that John had already been martyred when Mark’s Gospel was written. This is surely an argument without weight. All in all the evidence brought forward for early martyrdom is very scanty and it is better to reject the whole idea. There is no solid argument against the tradition that John lived to a great age and was active in the service of his Lord. -- Geoffrey W. Bromiley, The International Standard Bible Encyclopediaa, Revised (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1988; 2002), 2:1108.
Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what [is that] to you? You follow Me.” Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what [is that] to you?”
So if this early double martyrdom Tradition is true even in part ( i.e. that 'James' and his brother 'John' both were martyred in the 40s before the 'Book of Revelation' came into existence, then we must needs look for another Yohanon as ourr Author- andd he would naturally have to be a priestly one - who may not even otherwise be known - although some Catholic scholars (e.g. as Massyngberde Ford thought way back in 1967 who opined that the Book was actually based on the prophetic priestly apocalyptic teaching of 'Yohanon bar Zechariah' i.e. John the Baptist - since John the Baprist came from the tribe of Levi and whose father Zechariah (accoding to thee canonical Greek gospel of 'Luke' in chapter 2) allegedly served in the 2nd Temple of Herod in Jerusalem in the early 1st century...
But to me, John the Baptist (executed at the Machareus Fortress c. 34 AD) lived a little too early to be associated with the 'Book of Revelation' (penned c. AD 69) = unless some of his material was taken over by a disciple of his (and remember both Shimeon bar Yonah (i.e. Simon Peter) and his brother 'Andreas' were both first disciples of John the Baptist only joining up the R. Yehoshua (bar Yosef aka Iesous) after the execution of the baptist - apparently R. Yehoshua took over a lot of John's former disciples when he went around saying Follow Me...
At any rate, the author of the Book of Revelation was almost certainly a Levetical or Zadokite priest in the 2nd temple
or one of the renegade celibate priests at Qumran (or came from a priestly family, like the anonymous author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, whose Greek was certainly not Paul's - was likewise a priest (cohen) heavilly steeped in the traditions of all the finer points of levitical ritual sacrifices...and Yohanon the son of Zavdai shows no such connexion in the earliest traditions of the Nazorean Messianic communities in the 1st century.