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Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible
Some Jewish writers interpret them of their two Messiahs, Messiah ben Joseph, and Messiah ben David (u). Some interpreters understand by them Enoch and Elias; others Peter and Paul; others, better, with Kimchi and Ben Melech, Joshua and Zerubbabel, the one anointed for the priesthood, and the other for the kingdom; of which two offices Jarchi interprets them; and others the two churches, Jewish and Christian.
Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by kallisti36
By your list of inane misrepresentations of what you actually believe to be ‘facts’ you really are showing yourself to be quite quite oblivious to the actual ‘history’ underlying all the competing the 1st century Judaeo-Christianities that were in existence (often at each other’s throats) that had spread into in Asia Minor as well as in North Africca and in the Levant out of Palestine both before and after the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE) !
Having said that, it will take a few ATS posts to answer all of them, so let me first address some of your more egregious ‘maggots’ (to use a term coined by Rev. Charles Jennins back in 1740 to refer to ‘various warp’d Ideas crawling out of an unfocussed Brain’…)
First, the so-called Johannine Literature in the present canonical Greek NT refers to the 3 shortish Greek Epistles attributed to Yohanon the Presbuteros (‘John the Elder’) as well as the so-called 4th canonical gospel (‘according to Yohanon’) although the latter gospel-documents may well have been the work of several persons who surrounded this Presbyter John (whoever he really was) in life and edited or polished the work after his death.
This Johnanine corpus does NOT (repeat N-O-T) include the so-called ‘Book of Revelation’ which is the product of another (anonymous) ‘Yohanon’ not related to the Elder – and no amount of bad translators can account for the vast differences in Content, Tone, Sentence Length, Grammatical constructions, peculiar Nazorean Ebionite (‘salvation by works’ i.e. ANTI PAULINE) theology, Weltanschauung, Style of Utterance and a number of other stylistic features which show that they come from two different Christianities in the 1st century CE.
For the sake of discussion we’ll call this Yohanon of the book of ‘Revelation’ simply as ‘John the Seer’, who seems to have a more anti Gentile, and more pro Zionist-Jerusalemite world view (as opposed to the Presbyter who speaks the more international pro-Gentile language of the Greek Mystery Schools out of Alexandria and Ephesus and other major Asiatic cult centers)- his attitude towards the Iudaioi (‘Judaeans’ which modern Christians read ‘Jews’ in their badly translated English bibles !) for example is quite the opposite in the ‘book of Revelation’ from what it is in the Elder John’s Gospel in a number of places…
So don’t continue in your jejune belief that the same ‘John’ is responsible for the the Gospel-Epistles and the ‘book of revelation’ – they are NOT of the same mind, despite some attempts in some later copies after the 3rd century to add editorial features (marginalia) to link the two together.
In case you had not noticed, the various doctrines of the Jewish Messiah as pre-existent creator LOGOS is oler than Christianity – and represents one of many attempt by Alexandrian Jews (and later Alexandrian-converted Jews to Alexandria’s version of Christianity) to merge older ‘pagan’ philosophical Platonic-Aristotelian ideas of the Divine MIND with YHWH the clan god of the Jews as it is expressed in the Hebrew Scriptures (not only as the ideas existed in germ form in Genesis, but also e.g. Proverbs chapter 8:22 where the idea of CHOKHMAH or WISDOM is used as the Tool of Creation through Speech or Word - see e.g. Philo of Alexandria’s work on this subject from a Jewish perspective c. 30 CE)
I am Chokhmah - YHWH brought Me forth as the first of his works, before deeds of old
I was appointed from eternity, from the Beginning, before the World sprang into Existence.
At the Time when no oceans existed, I was given birth,
I was there when there were no springs were abounding with water; .
I existed with him before the mountains were settled in place,
Yea before the hills were formed I was given birth,
Before he made the Land or its fields or any of the mud of the Ground.
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
And when he marked out the horizon on the Faces of the Tehomah ,
When he established the clouds above
And when he fixed securely the fountains of the Tehomah,
When he gave the sea its boundary
So the waters would not overstep his command,
And I was with him when he marked out the Foundations of the earth.
At that time, yea, I was The Craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
Always rejoicing before his Face[s]
Yea, Rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in the sons of Adam.
Philo of Alexandria had a lot of Greek Ink to spill over the above Chokhmah Traditions - something I am sure Shaoul of Tarsus would have choked on - praising Wisdom (Sophia/Gnosis etc.) in such an overt fashion !
This Yohanon the Elder (whoever he really was - apparently there were TWO 'Yohanons' buried side by side at one time at Ephesus according to Dionysius…not that you’d want to believe it….)
who brought in the idea of the LOGOS into the Gospel material under his name also was a literary thief (like the author of the Book of Revelation in that one respect at least !) in that he not only stole his LOGOS ideas from Alexandrian Jews (e.g. Philo and his Jewish Platonist school c 30-40 CE) but also went as far as adapting NON JEWISH texts as well, e.g. the Rg Veda’s Famous Hymn to VAC (‘the Word’ or ‘the VOICE’) written more than 1000 years earlier which had wide circulation throughout Asia Minor before even Socrates or Plato was born !
Here is the stolen (or more politely, ‘adapted’) text that this John the Elder lifts from the Hindu Sacred Canon of Scriptures, specifically the Devi Sukta hymn Rg Veda 10.125 (c. 1200 BCE) when he introduces his Logos-centric canonical Greek gospel (which is expressed in a far different Greek Style of Utternace and Weltanschauung than the Zionist-Palestinian oriented mind behind the socalled ‘Book of Revelation’ let me assure you)
Devi Sukta hymn Rg Veda 10.125 / 10.114.8 (c. 1200 BCE)
In the beginning was VAC (lit. ‘The Word’ or ‘The Voice’ or ‘The Sound’ opersonified as a goddess) and VAC was with the seers viewing the god of Creation when VAC was herself a goddess - and no thing that sprang into existence was created without VAC….
Sound familiar? And from a far older, non-Jewish, thoroughly ‘pagan’ source too !
Now don’t tell me this is all news to you – and if so, you are going to be in for a very rude awakening, my friend, over the next couple of weeks when more of this hard evidence is thrust (or more politely ‘presented for closer inspection’) under your nose !
What is it about persons who style themselves ‘Christians’ to-day who insist on deluding themselves (like modern Jews still do about their own borrowed post Exilic theological underpinnings ! ) that their own ‘religion’ is somehow unique or divine or fell down from heaven in one whole cloth, without any substantial stealing…er…borrowings from other older more sophisticated and much larger cultural neighbours? (in this case the HINDUS of all ancient peoples !)
There is no specifically Alexandrian ‘LOGOS’ doctrine expressed in the ‘Book of Revelation’ – and nothing specifically ‘Elder Johnish’ about ideas like the Aleph and the Tav (i.e. the Urrim ve Thummim (beginning with the letters ALEPH and TAV) which represented the sacred pre-Jewish oracular Lots of Canaan for ‘Condemnation’ and ‘Release’ – and linguistically linked to Isaiah chapter 48:12, 41:4, 44:6 etc.)
There is not LOGOS idea in the image of the Bar Enasha (‘son of Man’ of Aramaic Daniel chapter 7:13 ff) holding the 7 Stars of Heaven in his Right Hand with a Dangling Sword with which he will exterminate all the Gentiles and Smash them all to Pieces like a Potter’s Vessel –
Revelation 19:13 American Standard Version (ASV) 13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
There is nothing LOGOS like about the ‘Daviddic Messiah - Bar Enasha Figure’ glowing brightly like something taken from a hot furnace (literally stolen from Theodotion’s own weird Vorlage textual underlay to the Hebrew consonantal version of Daniel 10:6-8) or about his Metatron like Temple Accolyte function, or about the Bar Enasha’s holding of the ‘Keys to David’s Kingdom whose doors when opened no son of man may shut’…
Nor is there anything particularly 'LOGOS-like' about the Book of Revelation’s Seer’s stealing of poetic images from the earlier Danielic, Hezekielite & Henochite visions of the 4 Chayyot (‘living creatures’) or of his evident use of the ‘Merkhava’ Throne-Chariot Literature (akin to the Dead sea Scrolls in places) throughout his ‘Book of Revelation’…
And clearly, most of the inserted textual references to ‘the Ram’ in all the 2nd temple imagery which make heavy and direct ‘steals’ of older Jewish Creation Hymns found in the ‘book of Revelation’ are clearly inserted ‘Christian marginalia’ into an earlier more Jewish (non Elder-Johanine) text which uses SINGULAR verbs in their praises in the mangled Greek copies most of the time and SINGULAR direct objects when referring to the divine presence e.g. ‘El Elyon, even the Eternal One sititing upon the Throne’ - nearly always expressed as a SINGULAR and not a DUAL Entity (e.g. ‘glory to the one who sits upon his throne’ (sg) [margin: yea, and also to the Lamb] etc.
And I certainly see nothing LOGOS-like about a Warrior Messiah mounting a White Horse and Slaying the Gentiles with the breath of his mouth, with his Followers dressed in white, causing the blood of the goyim to rise to the bridles of the horses, do you?
And as we have already pointed out, there is absolutely nothing LOGOS like about the TWO MARTYRS, i.e. the TWO MESSIAHS i.e. the TWO OLIVE TREES which stand before the Throne of EL in his Heavenly Temple and who are BOTH martyred and who BOTH ‘rise from the dead’ after 3 ½ days and ‘ascend into Heaven’
And I see nothing LOGOS-like in images such as the Conquored Gentile Nations all being marched captive into the New Jerusalem, with all of their gold and silver and wealth literally pouring into the City before them for the sole use of the (ahem) ‘victorious’ Elect of Yisro’el, like the 12 Fruits of the Tree of Life in the City Centre (‘one for each of the 12 Tribes of the Sons of Yisro’el) with all the battle-conquored ‘gentile-goyim survivors’ ’ gasping for mercy, bathing their ‘battle scars and wounds in the leaves of the Tree of Life’ – do you?
These ideas are NOT Elder-John theology (which tends towards the Universal and ‘anti Judaean’) whereas this is proZionist and ANTI-Gentile in the extreme if you look at each phrase closely.
As for the Evionim, it will require a separate post I am afraid. Suffice it to say, the author of the ‘book of Revelation’ was against all those who preached a salvation by faith alone (i.e. the Pauline ‘heretics’) and clearly supported a Salvation by Works (Heb: ma’aseh ha Torah) i.e. obedience to the Torah of Moses as defining ritual purity –
The writer of Revelation's hatred of Shaoul of Tarsus is obvious (‘Behold I know the Blasphemies of those of the Synagogue of Satan who claim to be Jews but are not Jews at all…I will force them to come to you on bended knee & worship at your feet ! see Rev 2: 9 or even earlier in the text, e.g. ‘I know your actions.. how you have weighed ‘the hearts of those who call themselves ‘APOSTOLOI ‘but are not APOSTOLOI but are Liars’ (Rev 2:2) clearly a swipe at Shao’ul of Tarsus (aka Paul) who addressed himself in this peculiar fashion, even though he never ‘met Iesous in the Flesh’ but only ‘in dreams and visions’ like my Gardner.
Shao’ul of Tarsus (aka Paul) who addressed himself in this peculiar fashion, even though he never ‘met Iesous in the Flesh’ but only ‘in dreams and visions’ like my Gardner
Pretty much sums up the Seer Yohanon-author of Revelation’s contempt for Paul’s ‘salvation by faith alone’ theology which drew in so many of the hated Gentiles into the Movement – see also Paul’s obscene ‘begging act’ when he ‘was summoned to Jerusalem’ to explain himself in front of the Ebionite ‘James the Just’ who was not even one of the 12 Disciples ! – yet this Torah Abiding James the Just still (by his Ebionite blood line) took over the Daviddic Messianic Kingdom ‘ministry’ of his brother (‘Iesous’) after his execution –
See the specific Greek words used in Acts chapter 15 and the vile contempt ‘Saul’ (i.e. Paul) held the Torah Abidiing Ebionites in Jerusalem when he spoke of them in his own words in ‘Galatians’ chapter 2 - especially if you read HIS Greek words very closely ‘those so called Pillars’ … and ref: Kephah ‘I called him an Hypocrite to his face !) – clearly they were at each other’s throats and separated after a major theological (and personal) quarrel (end of Acts 15 – ‘then Kephah took John Mark with him and left in a huff…’)
36And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit(BY) the brothers(BZ) in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." 37Now Barnabas wanted to take with them(CA) John called Mark. 38But Paul thought best not to take with them one(CB) who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39And there arose(CC) a sharp disagreement, so that they separated from each other.(CD) Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and departed,(CE) having been commended by(CF) the brothers to(CG) the grace of the Lord. 41And he went through Syria and Cilicia,(CH) strengthening the churches.