Book of Revelation: A REAL Vision' or a FAKE Prophecy' PatchedTogether from Scraps of 'Old" Test

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

Either we are gods or we are not. If we are gods then we should be able to create universes at a whim and we deserve worship. If we are not yet think we are that's the same lie satan told Eve.

Or to borrow a line from Syndrome in The Incredibles, "When everyone's a god, nobody will be."

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Can you please enlighten me as to the Lie that Satan told Eve? Perhaps you should read Genesis 3 again...

reply to post by Sigismundus


Yes, I believe it's as you say...

but as others have pointed out, I don't think it was meant to be a deception to Christians...

rather it's a letter paraphrasing the OT, and the redemption in cryptic way to stay under the Roman radar...

reply to post by Theophorus

Hi Theophorus -

I would certainly think that it WOULD matter a great deal [especially to a ‘believer’ ] to discover that an Apocalyptic Book in their council-approved ‘Bibles’ was purporting to be a ‘New Vision by a real Angel’ turns out in the end to be nothing more than a literary rip-off (i.e. a plagiaristic hack job) of earlier Jewish Apocalypses – unless perhaps the ‘believer’ blindly accepts the overall message with 'a nod and a wink' -

i.e. knowing full well that the Writer of the so-called 'Book of Revelation' was essentially a ‘liar’ i.e. in the sense that he had no ‘real Vision’ of the Future of anything (or even of his own times c. 69 AD i.e. during the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome…) , but rather just managed to find time to cobble together a string of old Jewish prophecies from the Hebrew & Aramaic Scriptures he knew in order to create a ‘synthetic’ Apocalypse - i.e. to foist on Messianically inclined 'believers' in his own day - who were in desperate need of 'apocalyptic' (end of days, final battle etc.) 'hope' in order to continue the rapiddly losing (and ultimately failed) Jewish War against the Roman Empire (‘the Beast’)which began in AD 66 i.e. on the 70th anniversary of the death of Herod (d. 4 BCE) ---.

Not that the ‘old testament’ prophets did not out and out steal oracles from each other (either that, or the later compilers of the books/scrolls that bore their name got really confused as to who said what exactly….
e.g. Micah 4:1-3 (same as = Is. 2: 2-4)

(which was also attributed to wholly DIFFERENT prophet (proto-Isaiah) by the editor of the book [proto-] Isaiah (2: 2-4) or vice versa) – the question is, who REALLY wrote it? And why is the SAME oracular passage attributed to TWO different people?

Micah 4:1-3

In that Day, the House of YHWH shall be established upon the tallest Mountain
Even built upon the highest of all the Hills,
Yea, it shall be raised above the highest places;
So that the People will flow into it,
And many of the goyim shall say to themselves,
Come, let us go up to the mountain of YHWH,
Even to the house of the clan-god of Yakkov –
That he might teach us his Ways
And that we might walk in his Paths.
For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
And the word of YHWH shall go forth from Jerusalem –
And he shall judge between many goyim,
Yea he shall arbitrate between many strong nations abroad i
Even in the Day when they shall beat their swords into plowshares
And shall turn their spears into pruning hooks –
and [one] Nation shall not lift a sword against [another ] nation,
Neither shall they learn War any more…

Compare that with the same oracles found in [proto]-Isaiah 2: 2-4

In that Day, the House of YHWH shall be established upon the tallest Mountain
Even built upon the highest of all the Hills,
Yea, it shall be raised above the highest places;
So that the People will flow into it,
And many of the goyim shall say to themselves,
Come, let us go up to the mountain of YHWH,
Even to the house of the clan-god of Yakkov –
That he might teach us his Ways
And that we might walk in his Paths.
For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
And the word of YHWH shall go forth from Jerusalem –
And he shall judge between many goyim,
Yea he shall arbitrate between many strong nations abroad i
Even in the Day when they shall beat their swords into plowshares
And shall turn their spears into pruning hooks –
and [one] Nation shall not lift a sword against [another ] nation,
Neither shall they learn War any more…

It should make a difference to a ‘believer’ one would think, to know where an ‘inspired’ scriptural citation actually came from (e.g. Did the Ploughshares Oracle actually come from the ‘Isaiah the son of Amoz’ i.e. the author of Isaiah chapters 1-39, or did it come from ‘Micah of Morehsheth ‘who lived at roughly the same time c. 715 BCE ?

Similarly, we have several sets of oracles which are attributed to the supposedly ‘real’ (i.e. actual) Vision of Yohanon (whoever he was) in the ‘Book of Revelation’ that are clearly literary stolen-borrowed—plagiarised ‘adaptations’ of many earlier Hebrew speaking (or Aramaic, in the case of parts of the Aramaic sections of Daniel) prophets e.g.

Revelation 9: 7-11 (the vision of the locust armies of Belial) - which was clearly stolen from the Targum of Joel 2: 4-11 (with passing reference to Proverbs 30:27 and

Rev 9: 7-11

And lo, the star-Angel opened the Pit of the Abyss
And lo, from its depths arose smoke like unto a great Furnace,
And behold, both the Sun and the [moon? Air?] were darkened
Even by reason of the smoke coming out of the Pit –
And I looked, and behold, I saw Locusts flying out of the Smoke
And lo, they all began to cover the ground in a swarm !

And I saw that each had the Power of Scorpions in their Tails
In order to sting men with them - but without killing them…
And lo, the Appearance of the Locusts was like unto War Horses
Even soldiers prepared for a Battle Charge,
And upon their heads were golden [Helmets? Wreaths? Crowns?]
And tho’ their faces were like those of men, they wore their hair long like women !

And behold, they all had the Fangs of Lions in their Mouths
And their Breastplates were made of iron Scales,
The Beating of their Shields sounding like the wings of Swarming Locusts,
Even like unto the Clamour of many chariots and horses
All running at once into the midst of the Fray of Battle –
And though they swarmed like locusts, they nevertheless had a King set over them

(see: Proverbs 30:27 – Like swarming Locusts who have no King set over them, yet they seem to advance all together in ordered Ranks…’)

Whose name [in the Hebrews' tongue] was Abba-Doq’on (lit. ‘the Father of Consumption’)
And whose Title was ‘The Angel of She’ol…’


Compare the above 'oracle' from the 'Book of Revelation' with the Targum of Joel

Joel 1:6 & 2: 1-11

A Nation has invaded the Land
Even a mighty Army without number;
Having the Teeth of a Lion & the Fangs of a lioness….

Therefore, blow the trumpet in Zion;
Sound the alarm on my Holy Hill.
Let all who live in the land of Yisro’el tremble…
For the day of YHWH is coming near—
Even a Day of Darkness and gloom,
A day of Clouds and Blackness.

Like the Dawn spreading across the face[s] of the mountains
Behold, a Large & Mighty Army comes,
The appearance of their Troops (Aram. ‘Hargallah’) was as Locusts (Heb. ‘Hargolot’)
Behold, they charge ahead as War Horses,
Their roar like the Rumbling of many Chariots,
Lo, how they stream over the mountain tops in a swarm !

The Sound of their Approach is as the Thunder of War
Even like the crackling of Flames,
Or like fire as it devours the stubble fields
Yea, like a giant Army readied for Battle -
Lo, how they charge forward in line without jostling each other
Even like unto prepared Soldiers thoroughly trained in the arts of War !

How quickly they rush upon the city scaling over the walls
And leap down and break through the Windows like thieves !
Before their face[s] the Land quakes,
And the Heavens tremble,
The sun is darkened, the Moon does not give her light,
And all the stars stop their shining –

For YHWH utters his Voice
Even before the face[s] of his mighty Army,
Lo, his Warriors are innumerable,
And they who execute his commands are numberless –
Yea, the Day of YHWH is Great and Terrible,
And Who shall be able to stand?


This is just more evidence that what we are dealing here is in fact a ‘literary’ Apocalypse cobbled together from old scraps, and not a ‘real Vision’ of the future –

Once this is seen to be the case, any literal belief that 'Yohanon' had a vision of End Times and actually saw prophetic glimpses of the future – seems downright foolhardy - to say nothing of any possible relevance to the upcoming 2012 Astrological precession demarcation into 'Age of Aquarius' from the froward 'Age of Pisces'...

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Can you please enlighten me as to the Lie that Satan told Eve? Perhaps you should read Genesis 3 again...
-

"and ye shall be as gods" Gen 3:5

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Can you please enlighten me as to the Lie that Satan told Eve? Perhaps you should read Genesis 3 again...
-

"and ye shall be as gods" Gen 3:5

From the positions of being faith-based adherers (of anything), claims are repeatedly made of some reference-point (e.g. a holy manual etc) being THE final authority on everything.

While the faithful ofcourse has an individual right to have this opinion, it's just a subjective position. When claims of general exclusivity, superiority or similar are presented, the position moves into the area of objectivity (i.e. claims must be substantiated by evidence independent of subjective interpretations).

Such evidence is seldom, if ever, presented from theist positions, and this includes the whole range from simple postulated doctrines to what systematic methodologies are used to produce 'answers' and out into the outer reaches of philosophy and logic.

So faith as faith. There's no justification for excelling one religion above another in the broader context of all mankind.

So 'you shall be as 'god's' is as valid as a rejection of this claim (though it somewhat helps to clarify the concept 'god' as used in different contexts).

(To some extent the above also includes more mundane ideologies).

reply to post by bogomil


I was asked about satan and Eve generally, and Genesis chapter 3 specifically.

Can I not use a Bible to answer a question about the Bible?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Apparently not, in some people's minds. Other writings (ANY other writings) can be used as their own evidence, but not the Bible! o.O

reply to post by Sigismundus

John wrote The Revelation while in excile on Patmos island...
...this was a prison island...
...and John addressed it as a letter to seven churches in Asia Minor.

John used a compilation of Old Testament images and stories...
...as a coded message to get his letter past the island guards.

Most people who read Revelation now understand it as well as the guards.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

I was asked about satan and Eve generally, and Genesis chapter 3 specifically.

Can I not use a Bible to answer a question about the Bible?

Certainly you can, And can I not consider it in a broader context including former posts on this thread?

Originally posted by SaberTruth
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Apparently not, in some people's minds. Other writings (ANY other writings) can be used as their own evidence, but not the Bible! o.O

You have your own special way of saying things. I guess, that the 'some people' you refer to, include me (or maybe I'm just having an inflated opinion of myself).

In any case, my post to NOTurTypical actually stressed the egalitarian principle, I recommend between religions (and ideologies).

Any comments from you on this (apart from an evaluation of my character)?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Can you please enlighten me as to the Lie that Satan told Eve? Perhaps you should read Genesis 3 again...
-


"and ye shall be as gods"

Gen 3:22-Then the LORD God said, “Behold,the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

edit on 1-6-2011 by wearewatchingyouman because: yeah

reply to post by Sigismundus


No one is denying that there are similarities between the authors vision of revelation and other books in the old testament.however i wouldnt go as far to use the word 'stole'.my question would be, can more than one person receive gods devine revelation? Why not?

reply to post by troubleshooter


Albert Pike in his book Morals and Dogma Scottish Rite of Free Masonary. Said that the book of Revelations was an ancient writing one of other old writing found in Egypt. That it had been stolen and placed in the Bible where it didn't belong. It is believed by the Illuminati that it belongs to them. That it is their job to bring it about. Don't be surprised that current events follow that pattern. It Albert Pike was right. The the book of Revelations would be another forgery in the New Testament. There would be no way John wrote it on Patmos.

reply to post by troubleshooter

Hi Troubleshooter --

I think you are certainly on the right track about all the potential ‘coded symbolism’ that we can detect throughout the ‘Book of Revelation’ … which requires a kind of reverse-engineering on our parts to find out what all of it might have meant to the 'original audience' during the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome...

In fact, it seem to me to be quite ‘densely coded’ - especially if you break the book down into bite sized pieces then begin to look at it very, very carefully (despite all the Grammatical Greek Howlers of the messy manuscript mess of the book as it has come down to us to-day in so few MSS that have survived) and start to check out some of the Aramaic source material (e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll versions/copies of the Hebrew Scriptures and Pseudipigrapha, and the Targums)…

As I see it, the author-compiler (whoever he was) was trying to get out very meaningful messages (what the Romans would call ‘seditionist’) to the ‘holy Jewish warriors’ within Eretz Yisro’el and also in the Diaspora in the the Troad during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (c. AD 69) and perhaps felt the need to code it in such a way the Romans would not get the point of a lot of it…which is why so much Apocalyptic material (e.g. the Book of Daniel and I Henoch etc.) is so allegorical – if you’re caught with the book (or the scroll) in your hand by the authorities you can always say it means different things…

Clearly the writer of the Book of Revelation (whoever he was) was heavily relying on ‘those who had wisdom correctly to interpret’ the symbols within the target audience – and since those persons are now dead, we have to reverse-engineer the text back to what it might have said ....

[Interestingly, when we code the bad Greek of the Book of Revelation back into Aramaic idiom, we get 3 and 6 line poetical stanzas in a kind of Qinah Lament Meter – sort of like what we find in certain prophetic books e.g. the three Isaiah’s as well as the ‘Jeremiad’ Book of Lamentations ! ]

The dense coding scheme of the Book of Revelation also seems to involve a great deal of WAR language - carefully hidden by the fact that he (or his later editors?) often when ‘citing or referring back’ to a text of ‘Hebrew scripture’ he is very careful to cut off the ends or the original context(s) of the original referent quotations (in fact much of the material in the Book of Revelation reads oddly like the War Scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1QM with many of the same citations) which are often highly anti-Gentile and downright inflammatory at times.

For example, in the scenes of the Heavenly 2nd Temple we catch a lot of random Psalm Singing by the 24 elders and the four living Creatures – which might strike someone to-day as rather odd for an Apocalypse which is supposed to be talking about end-times symbolism – these sudden bursting out of psalms at odd moments might seem like distractions to a modern reader unfamiliar with e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll material, especially the War Scroll (which uses many psalms of Victory etc.) – unless you know your Hebrew ‘prophetic’ Scriptures well, then suddenly, ‘the scales begin to fall from your eyes’

e.g. the Targum of proto-Isaiah 30:32
(written in the context of a Holy War, think: Bin Laden…)

In that Day, every Stroke that YHWH lays upon his Enemies
Even the Beatings of his Punishing Rod of Judgment
Shall be accompanied by the Music of Harps
Yea, they shall all be joined with the Clanging of Tambourines and Songs
As YHWH himself shall fight for his Chosen Ones in the Day of Battle
Even with every Blow of his Right Arm against the goyim !

So when we read of Psalm Singing passages like

And, lo, I heard a Voice from the midst of the Throne of EL, chanting,

Sing Praises to YHWH our clan-god
Yea, Give Honour to EL,
O ye Servants of the Most High !
Even all that Fear his Name,
both small and great among you !

We are reminded of other Psalms that continue in shall we say a little more seditious details – and thus were not so safely quoted in full by the author of the Book of Revelation – if indeed he was under a kind of house arrest upon Patmos

See e.g. the Targum of Psalm 9:11-12

Sing Praises to YHWH in Zion, Declare his Deeds among the goyim
For it is He who is mindful to avenge the Blood of his chosen people
Yea, may the goyim all sink into the Pit they have dug for us !
Therefore rise up YHWH, do not let sinful flesh prevail,
but let the goyim be judged before your face[s]
For YHWH is king forever & ever –
Yea the goyim who occupy his land shall all be wiped out !

Clearly however, his citations or ‘referents’ often come from several different places (as with the Dead Sea Scroll pesherim which flit back and forth between certain passages by different prophets or by using several phrases from different Psalms all in a single string of logic)

Thus he could also have been thinking of scraps / pieces of other Psalms as well

e.g. Ps. 33

Sing Praises to YHWH all ye righteous ones
Even with the Lyre and the Harp of Ten Strings
Even with loud Shouting, a Skillful Song of the Strings..

For YHWH brings the Counsel of the Goyim to nothing
Yea, he thwarts all the War Plans of the Gentiles
But blessed is the Nation whose clan-god is YHWH
Even the people he has chosen for his Inheritance…

Such a dense sourcing methodology in all the ‘coded’ Psalm Singing bby those 24 levites and the angels and the 4 living creatures etal. in the Book of Revelation would require several posts to elucidate e.g. when we read in Rev. 5:11

Then I turned, and behold, I heard, the voice of a multitude of Angels,
even thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand,
and lo, they were encircling the Throne with the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders. ..

We can think of Daniel chapter 7
(if you notice, many of the images found here were later used by the author of The Book of Revelation)

And I looked, and behold, I saw that Thrones were being set up ,
And lo, the Ancient of Days entered & took his Seat.
His clothing was as white as snow
The hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with Fire -
And lo, its Wheels were all ablaze.

A glowing river of Fire was flowing outwards
And lo, it was Emanating from before his Face[s]
Thousands upon thousands attended him-
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated - and the Scrolls were being unrolled.

We can also think of a longer passage viz. Psalms 68 – which might have been one of the Literary Sources for the Book of Daniel’s ‘vision’ as well:

Targum of Psalm 68

May EL arise, to scatter all of his Enemies
Yea, may his Foes flee before his face[s] !

May you blow them away like smoke— even as wax melts before the fire,
yea, may the evil doers all perish before the Face[s] of EL .

Sing to EL, sing in praise of his holy Name,
Extol him who rides on the Clouds;
Rejoice before his Presence —his Name is YHWH !

When YHWH went out to lead his people
And marched through the Wilderness,
The earth shook, the heavens opened its founts
Before the face[s] of the One, the EL of Sinai,
Even before YHWH, the clan god of Israel.

Then YHWH pronounced his Oracles
[And those who proclaimed it were a mighty throng indeed] saying
‘The Kings of the Gentiles and their Armies shall all flee in haste”;
And lo, when the Almighty scattered the Goyim in the land,
It was just like snow was falling on Mount Zalmon.

For the Chariots of EL are tens of thousands
Even Thousands of Thousands of Angels !

For when YHWH comes from Sinai into his Temple
To ascend upon high, he shall take many captives
And shall receive tribute from the Goyim
And he shall gather sums of money from the Rebellious Ones
In order that our clan god YHWH, might dwell in it !

In other words, even a harmless little phrase in passing (like ‘thousands of thousands’) might hearken the audience back (by scriptural referents) to a much longer original 'more War Related passage in the Hebrew and Aramaic ‘scriptures’ with which the Author of Revelation was familiar – expecting no doubt that his audience would be very, very familiar with exactly what he was talking about –

i.e. hope for the clear victory of Israel over the ‘sinful goyim’ (i.e. the Romans) in the heat of the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome (AD 66-72), especially in AD 69 when Rome was on the brink of tottering - under no less than 4 emperors in succession in a single year ( viz. Roman Emperors Galba, Otho, Vitellius & finally Vespasian) which must have given the Judaeans hope that they could finally kick the Romans out of ‘Eretz Yisro’el for good …but a year later, looked how that all turned out for them…

Some quick facts about John:

1) He was Jewish
2) He actually saw Christ
3) John was literally a fisherman before he became a religious figure

I can say with certainty that John did have a vision on this simple fact.

He describes things that Old Testament Prophets did not:

1) Ruling over people who survive the Armageddon (read that as other Jews and people who declined the "Mark of The Beast")
2) What life will be like for a 1000 year period after the Armageddon
3) That Satan and his ilk will be released from hell on purpose.

So to me that makes you ask yourself somethings.

1) Either John really did have a vision and his vision's accuracy is reinforced in the fact that God gave it to him because some older Prophets had the same vision.
2) Or this is an elaborate lie orchestrated over 1000's of years to control you.

I'll go with option 1. I think noticing that there are the same prophecies in the Old Testament merely reinforces that its genuine. This being the case because God can see into the future and knows what it will be, so of course it will be the same prophecy.

reply to post by Koinonia

Hi Koinonia –

You claim to know what in fact we do NOT know about the author (which is next to nothing) when you write in your post that you can identify the author as an original disciple (i.e. a Galilean fisherman = R. Yohanon bar Zavdai (=John son of Zebedee) who was one of the 2 Benei Regesh, ‘sons of Thunder’ and ‘one of those so-called Pillars of the Church’ at Jerusalem (at least, according to the denigratory titles given to them by Paul in Galatians chapter 2) etc.

When it comes to authorship of this weird textual mess (called variously The Apocalypse of Yohanon the Diviner or The Book of Revelation, or the Revelation of John the Elder etc.) we clearly know nothing about his identity except what we can gather from what is known as ‘internal evidence…’

l. The author(s) called himself ‘Yohanon’ which was a common name in Palestine in the 1st century and could be anyone – his father is not listed (generally one would write their name in those days in the Levant if they spoke Aramaic/Hebrew as ‘Yohanon bar xxxx’ i.e. John son of xxxx

2. The Author(s) wrote and thought primarily in Aramaic/Hebrew and not in Greek

3. The author(s) either had little expertise in handling Koine Greek idioms or another (i.e. other than the original author-compiler) was responsible for ‘very badly translating’ an originally Heb-Aram. Poetical (?) Apocalyptic collection (was it ever finished?) into the Grammatical Greek Mess that we see to-day in Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Alexandrinus & Codex Ephraemi Palimsest - along with all the scrappy Papyri fragments (e.g. the Princeton Papyrus 0169 or the Oxford Sackler Papyrus 0308 etc. and all the other papyri that do not match the (3) major 4th and 5th century Greek hand copied Codices listed above very closely in the Greek.

Or -- perhaps the translators wanted to retain some of the poetical literalness when bringing the text into Greek from Aramaic and Hebrew – which may account for the ‘next to impossible Greek Grammatical Howlers’ in many passages that stump exact translation – much less into modern English !

4. The Author(s) like the 'anonymous author' of the 'Epistle to the Hebrews' in the canonical Council-approved Greek New Testament (certainly not Paul’s language at all !) was a (presumably Judaean..) priestly-Levite or someone who was very closely tied to the 2nd ‘Herodian’ Temple liturgy and rites as they were understood and carried out either at Jerusalem or ‘virtually’ i.e. sacrifice by intense study and prayer at the the Zadokite ‘virtual-Temple’ at Qumran near the Dead Sea – we can say this with some conviction in view of his evident technical knowledge of the sacrificial Rites and daily activities of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem (e.g. his apparent knowledge of the 7-daily TAMID Psalms from which he derives much of his ‘vision’ imagery) as they are referred to with expert and often subtle literary references (like the author of Hebrews) which only a person with Zadokite Levitical training would know –

And this ‘Jerusalemite’ (or Qumran Zadokite) priestly author- profile does NOT conform to an illiterate Galilean fisherman who was purportedly put to death by Herod Antipas some time in the mid 40s AD – and the writer of the Book of Revelation clearly is writing in the late 60’s AD probably during the hiatus in AD 69 in the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome which was fought between AD 66 and AD 72 – mention that the 2nd temple is still apparently standing and occupied by the goyim for 42-months in Rev. 11:2 – Herod’s 2nd Temple at Jerusalem was in fact burned to the ground by the Roman Army some time in August of AD 70)

5. The Author(s) (very much like the Essenoid-like ‘Dead Sea Scroll Sons -of -Zadok-Sect’ at Qumran) held firm Messianic and other related Doctrinal beliefs that were much different from most 2nd Temple Judaean priests serving in 1 week sets of priestly rotation bi-anually at the Temple (the ruling Zaddukkim/ Sadduccees)

a. He/they held a belief (from his use of what he deemed to be sacred scripture as proof texting) in the ‘ divine inspiration’ of the Hebrew Prophets and also the Psalms (unlike the the Sadduccees and the Sammaritim who ONLY held the Torah of Moses to be sacred ‘inspired scripture’, or as they used to called it, ‘those scriptures of YHWH that are able to defile the hands’ which to them did not include the Psalms or the Prophets or any other writings which they did not view as ‘sacred’…);

b. He/they held a belief in the Resurrection of the Righteous and Martyrs (which the Saduccees at Jerusalem also did not)

c. He/they held a belief in Angels and Daemons (also which the Saduccees at Jerusalem did not believe in).

6. We have no firm knowledge at all if the semi-anonymous Author / Compiler of the so-called ‘Book of Revelation’ even actually knew R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (c. BCE 12 to c. 36 CE – Greek : ‘Iesous’ ) ‘in the flesh’ –

We cannot even say that the ORIGINAL author of the book even believed in R. Yehoshua to be the promised Messiah –

If you examine the Greek Textual Mess very carefully, you will see again and again only very limited & very partial references to ‘Iesous’ (though there are a few more scattered references to a figure known as ‘the Ram’ that was newly slain – which could be a reference to John the Baptist for all we know…or some other Messianic figure running around in the 1st century…) are often missing in many MSS and in several places are clearly additions to an originally Jewish Messianic text –

And of course, this 'Messiah of David' could have been anyone (not automatically ‘Iesous’) of Daviddic blood who was thought to be able to Regather the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro’el scattered among the Goyim’ back to Palestine where he would overcome the goyim ‘occcupiers of the land’ [ i.e. of Yisroe’l] in the Last Days, and from Jerusalem would ‘Rule over the Gentiles with a Rod of Iron, and Dash them in Pieces like a Potter’s Vessel’ by the ‘Sharp Two Edged Sword of his Might’ etc.

Indeed reading the book through as a single piece as it appears in the messy Greek, the ‘Ram’ portions often look like afterthoughts added by a later Editor to an originally non-Christian Apocalypse (i.e. the texts refer to a Messianic Saviour Figure without a specific name)

e.g. Rev 5:13-14 And Lo, I heard the Voice of every Creature from the midst of Heaven
and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

Praise & Honour and Glory and Power to HIM (sg) who sits upon the Throne forever,

[some MSS add ' and also to the Ram' - which of course is grammatically impossible in Greek since the precursor says HIM in the singular]

Also e.g. Rev 7:9-11 Where it appears the Ram was not originally part of the Final Blessing

After this I looked, and there before me was a great Multitude
So large that no son of man could count all of them
Even from every Nation,Tribe, People & Tongue all standing before the Throne

[and also before the Ram]

And lo, they were wearing white linen robes holding palm branches in their right hands.
And they began to cry out in a loud Voice: “Salvation belongs to YHWH our clan-God,
Even to HIM who sits as King on his Throne ! “

[and also to the Ram]

And I looked & behold, all the Angels gathered around the Throne
And with the 24 Elders & the 4 Hayyot they all fell down on their faces
Even before the Face[s] of the Throne & began to worship EL chanting in one voice, saying:

“Amen! Praise & Glory & Wisdom & Thanksgiving
And Honour & Power and Might be to our clan-god
Even for Ever & Ever . Amen! ”

[notice that there is no reference to ‘and also to the Ram’ here in the Greek MSS where it would normally be added]


As for NOT mentioning that the Messiah would rule over the defeated goyim (gentiles), this is refuted by the final chapters, all derived from tritoIsaiah chapters 60-66

Here is what the Author of Revelation 21:22-26 states:

And I looked & behold, I saw: the Goyim who survived the Tribulation were being marched into the City
And by the Glow of its light I could see that the Kings of the Gentiles were pouring their Wealth into the City,
Even those Goyim who were defeated in the Battle who were all bringing Tributes & Gifts to the Elect Ones of Yisro’el…

And lo, I was shown in the Middle of the Broad Avenue the Tree of Life
Which bore 12 different Fruits all year long, 1 each for the 12 Tribes of Yisro’el
Whose Leaves the Defeated Gentiles were using as Medicines to treat their Battle Scars…


Many of the Key Images in chapter 21 of the Book of Revelation were 'lifted' whole cloth (i.e. stolen) from the Aramaic Targum of the Book of the Prophet Trito-Isaiah see chapters 60: 4-21
“Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All are assembling & come to you;

Lo, all your sons shall come from distant lands,
Your daughters shall be carried on the backs of the Gentiles.
In that Day you will look glorious & shall shine with Radiance ,
For the Wealth of the Goyim shall be brought to you, even by ship !

Yea, All the Riches of the Gentiles will flow into you…
All these they will be accepted as offerings on my Altar,
So that I may adorn my glorious Temple with them, saith YHWH.
In that Day, the Gentiles shall carry on their backs your exiled sons
Even from the 4 corners of the Earth and returned to the Holy City
Along with all the Silver and Gold of the Gentiles !

For they shall pay Tribute to your clan god YHWH, the Holy One of Israel !
Yea, he shall endow your gates with splendor.
Yea, in that Day the Goyim will patch the Breeches in your Walls,
Moreover , all of the Kings of the Gentiles will bow down and serve you.
Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the Goyim into your gates !

Yea, the Gentile Kings shall all be led in Triumphal Procession before your face[s]
And any N ation of the Gentiles or any Kingdom of the Goyim that dare not serve you
Will be destroyed, yea they all shall utterly be exterminated without Remnant.
For in that Day I shall glorify the place for my feet.
Yea, the sons of your Oppressors will come bowing before you;
And all who had despised you will bow down at your feet !

And you shall be called the City of Zion
And you shall all belong to YHWH, the Holy One of Israel
And I will make you an Everlasting pride for your descendants
And you shall be the Joy of all future generations.
You will suck the Milk of the Gentiles,
and be nursed at the breasts of their Royalty ! .

In that Day, in place of bronze there shall be Gold for you
And in the Place of Iron there shall be Silver for you
Instead of wood there will be Bronze for you
And in Place of Stones, there will be Iron for you
And no longer will Violence again be heard in the land of Yisro'el
Nor Ruin or Destruction within your borders !

You will call your walls ‘Salvation’
And your gates shall be named ‘Praise’.
The Sun will no more be your light by day,
Nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for YHWH will be your everlasting light,
And your clan-god will be your glory.

Your Sun will never set again upon you
And and your moon will wane no more;
YHWH will be your everlasting light,
And your days of sorrow will end.
Then all your people will be righteous
And they will possess the land of Yisro’el for Eternity .

They are the shoot I have planted,
Even the work of my hands,
And for the display of my splendor.
The least of you will become a Thousand strong
And the smallest among you a Mighty Nation
For I am YHWH - And the time for all this to happen is very near !


Also see the Targum of trito-Isaiah 66:19-30 which also was stolen/adapted by the author of the Book off Revelation (and notice all the OGH - Overt Gentile-Hatred and the WAR language throughout !)


When you see this, your heart will rejoice
For the hand of YHWH will be made known to his servants,
but his Vengeance shall be wreaked on all of his Enemies
For on that Day, Behold, YHWH is coming with fire,
His Chariots are like a mighty whirlwind
He will show his anger with fury & his rebuke with flames of fire.

For with fire and with his sword
YHWH will execute judgment on all the Gentiles
And many will be those who will be slain by YHWH.
Even those who dare to enter into my sacred gardens thknking themselves pure
But on the heels of those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other ritually unclean things—
They will meet their end together with the one they are following,” says YHWH.

And I, because of what they have planned and done, I am about to come
To gather my people from amongst all the Gentiles and Tongues,
So that they may come to Zion and behold my glory.
For I shall set a Sign among them, even survivors living among the Goyim
Even to Tarshish, and to Lydia famous for its bowmen
And also to Libya and to Tubal and al the Isles of the Greeks.

And I shall sent to distant islands that never heard of or witnessed my Glory .
These will proclaim my glory to the Goyim
And they will bring representatives from the Gentiles,
And they shall all come to my holy mountain in Jerusalem
Even as Guilt offerings to YHWH—as Israelites bring their grain offerings,
They shall come to the temple of YHWH in ceremonially clean vessels.

And I will choose some of them also to be priests & Levites,” says YHWH
As the new heavens and the new earth that I make
It shall will endure forever before my face[s]
So will your name and descendants endure forever.
Even from one New Moon to another & from one Sabbath to another,
So that in that Day all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says YHWH.


All of which suggests the author of the Book of Revelation was not (in actual 'fact') privy to any divine physical 'Vision' of End Times, but rather merely cobbled together a kind of Aramaic Poetical Midrash on the Tanakh wiith some focus on the Last Days derived from older texts known to his audience i.e. the Torah, Prophets and the Psalms to inspire the troops, as they say, during what was rapidly turning into a Lost Cause for the Judaens in their Messianic Hope to overthrow the Romans in Jerusalem and put a Daviddic King on the Throne.

In fact the more you source his materials out, the more 1st Failed Jewish War (i.e. AD 66) language and overt Gentile Hatred emerges in the text......

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Hi NOTurTypical—

I'm not sure I understand your post.

How on earth could you ever claim that this Argument (i.e. that the anonymous Author (s) of the ‘Book of Revelation’ did not compose his ‘Apocalypse’ from scratch but rather cobbled together from whole cloth an ‘elaborately fake series of end of Days Visions for the Elect’ which was clearly extracted from various older End Times ‘old testament’ Hebrew Scriptural scraps) is a 'Monumental Non-Story '?

That is, in view of the undisputable fact that most persons who style themselves ‘Christians’ (whatever that means exactly, especially these days !) almost to the man ‘literally believe’ that there Really Existed a Real Live Person (‘Yohanon’) who was gifted in seeing Real Visions, and was Really Exiled for ‘preaching the Word of EL and the Kingdom of his Messiah’ upon the Real Island of Patmos facing the Troad Synagogue System in the mid-1st century (located in present day Turkey) and Really Had ‘actual, physical Experiences of the End of Days’ (i.e. direct visionary ‘messages’ from his clan-god YHWH).

So… if we can identify some very hard ‘literary evidence’ (and much of it is piled upon other hard evidence from within the mangled Greek copies of his ‘Ur-Text’) that this anonymous ‘Yohanon’ person basically ‘made up a wholly Synthetic Book of Revelation Visions’ from much older Apocalyptic Dead Sea Scroll like Prophetic ‘End of Days’ oracular-scraps, purportedly to be sent to the ‘Elect of the House of Yisro’el scattered amongst the Gentiles in Asia in the Last days’ i.e. to the mid- 1st century Troad Synagogues etal during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (lasting c. 66 CE to 72 CE), then these persons who claim they believe (‘every word of’ !) the ‘canonical’ Greek New Testament ’ literally’, they must believe that the Author (whoever he was) was in some way telling the truth, i.e. that he had ‘real-life’ visions while under arrest in political Exile among the Greeks…

But in fact, on the contrary, the whole Book of Revelation, when all the the available mangled 3rd and 4th century Greek text MSS are examined very closely, it turns out that the Book is in fact a ‘sham prophecy’ - with absolutely No Thing At All to commend it as a Real Prophecy Book (after all, contrary to the overt promises in the Book of Revelation, the Messianic Holy War Fighter Judaeans in fact lost the 2 Wars they fought against Rome miserably (in the 1ast AD 70 War, they lost something like more than 900,000 persons, if you believe an eyewitness to the 1st War i.e. Flavius Josephus !) , to say nothing of the 136-138 CE 2nd Failed Jewish Revolt lead by the Daviddic Pretender Bar Kokhba –

So quite ccontrary to all the fake promises in the so-called ‘Book of Revelation’, in the end, that is, in actual fact, in actual History, the ‘goyim’ were NOT ‘exterminated leaving no remnant’ in the War(s) and the ‘Righteous Elect Remnant of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro’el’ were in the end NOT able to win the war and effectively take over the reins of world Government ‘in those last days’ in order ‘to rule over the Gentiles with an Iron Rod, and dash them all in pieces like a potters Vessel…’

Moreoevr a New Jerusalem-Zion did NOT magically ‘descend from the heavens’ in order for the ‘Righteous Remnant of the Elect of Yisro’el’ to ‘ dwell in forever’ praising YHWH in a New City Temple, with a New Heaven and a New Earth with New Citizen Titles (e.g. you shall be unto me ‘a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation’), with all the war-conquered Gentiles being ‘ led captive into the Gates of the Holy City in Chains, their Wealth following them in Streams into the midst of the City’ –

But on the other hand, quite the Opposite came true in real time history– Jerusalem was burned to the ground along with its 2nd Herodian Temple to YHWH, with all of its 'righteous' Tsadukkim its sacrificial priests wiped out & the civilian survivors were either sold into slavery or sent screaming for their lives into the ‘lands of the gentiles’ where the Judaean population living in the 1st century AD basically disappeared (especially after thee 2nd Revolt c. 138 CE) from the stage of world history - and far from 'all the Wealth of the Gentiles flowing as War Tribute into the City', the treasury of Jerusalem was carried off back to Rome (with a value in to-day's US-dollars of something like 2 Billion USD - that is if you acctually believe the vast amounts of hiddden cash listed in the Burial Places in the coded Dead Sea 'Copper Scroll' lists of pots and pots and pots of Silver Annual Temple Tax Shekels and Gold & Silver Kikkarim ('weighted Round-Talents' of precious metals !)

So the Very Opposite of what was promised in the Book of Revelation is what happened to those who tried to 'throw off the shackles of the Goyim' and 'expunge them from the Land of Yisro'el' in the Last Days...

In other words, modern (especially non-Hebrew speaking and non-Greek reading) persons who call themselves ‘Christians’ & purport to believe 'eevery single word' of this Zionist End of Days Gentile Hating Fantasy [as so ruthlessly depicted throughout the ‘Book of Revelation’] are basically believing a false Propaganda Message sent out to the Holy War Fighters to give them 'Messianic Hope; in order to 'hold out until the End' (e.g. repeated almost like a Sacred Mantra Formula in Rev 2:11, 2:26, 3:5 etc.) during the political confusion in the Roman capital in AD 69 – with so many Emperors coming and going only after a few weeks of power - so that they will ‘win a Final Victory over the Beast’ and his minions etc.

Interestingly perhaps, those very persons who take all of the ‘synthetic’ oracles in the Book of Revelation ‘literally’ (i.e. as an accurate record of ‘real visions’ are the very first ones to deny outright that the texts of the Hebrew Scriptures had anything at all to do with the formation of the ‘Book of Revelation’ as we read it today !!

reply to post by Sigismundus


I've read through most of your posts here and it is obvious you know a lot about this subject...

I am curious as to where you think the 144,000 of revelation 7 and 14 originate...

What do you think is the symbolism of 12,000 being taken from each of the tribes of Judah?

Do you know of this specific prophecy existing in other books?

etc...

thanks!

reply to post by swordwords

Hi Sword Words -

I for one cannot see that the Author(s) of the 'Book of Revelation' actually was able to read any Greek texts of Flavius Josephus--since his book, entitle 'The Jewish War' seems to have been set down in writing 20 years AFTER the end of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome ('The Jewish War', by Josephus seems to have been translated from his rougher Aramaic original c. AD 86 and brought into polished / cleaned up Greek by professional Flavian translator-scribes c. 90 AD - all paid for by the Flavian Roman Emperors while Josephus lived in relative comfort in his Flavian paid-for Apartments in Rome .. go figure !)

The Author(s) of the 'Book of Revelation' seem to be writing much earlier than Josephus - at a time when the Rebels in Judaea still seemed to think they had a chance in winning the war against the Romans i.e. in the middle of the War itself - (see Rev. 11:2 when the Court of the Goyim has been occupied but not burned down yet) i.e. probably during the 5-month military re-grouping hiatus of the Roman Army in Jerusalem c. AD 68-69 although the author(s) might well have heard of many of the rumours/stories/events of the War back in Judaea that Josephus later recalls in his 1st Book on the War and also in his 2nd Book entitled "Antiquities of the Judaeans"...

The reference in the text to the 'wound upon one of the heads whih miraculously healed' could possibly refer to a tottering Nero Caesar who by AD 67 had lost the support of his troops as well as the Senate and had fled the Roman capital ..but seemed to rally just before his alleged 'suicide' (or at least, his disappeance from Rome in AD 68)

See Rev 13:1 ff

And I looked & Behold, I saw : a Serpent ('dragon' ?) was standing on the Shore of the Sea !
And then, lo, a Beast began to rise out of the Sea, with 7 heads and 10 horns
And on each of his Heads he was wearing Ten Multitiered Crowns.
And behold, engraved upon each of its Heads, I could read a diffferent Name of Blasphemy.
And the Beast resembled a Leopard, but had feet like those of a Bear with a Mouth of a Lion
And lo, the Serpent gave the Beast his Authority & a Throne of his own with great Power.

And I looked & behold, one of the Beast's Heads had a Wound upon it that seemed to be Fatal
But then, lo, the Fatal Wound began to heal of itself within one of the heads.
And behold, the Whole World began to wonder at this miraculous Recovery
And lo, they all began to follow after the Beast whose Wound had healed of itself
Then the People began also to worship the Serpent since he was the one who gave the Beast Authority
And they exclaimed in worship to the Beast "Who is like unto the Beast? Who can wage war against Him?”

The literary 'source' for this supposed 'vision' (and others like it in the Book of Revelation) of course is the familiar Book of Daniel (chapter 7:2-8) , but in the rarer Greek text family later favoured by Theodotion (i.e. NOT the Masoretic text used by modern Rabinninc Jews & Protestants to-day)

And In my Night Vision I looked & Behold I saw: the Four Cardinal Winds of Heaven
And lo, they were all churning up the Great Sea which stood before me
And behold, I saw: Four Great Beasts, each one different from his Neighbour comuing up out of it
And, I looked and Lo, the first was like a Lion, and it had the Wings of an Eagle.
And I saw that its Wings were gradually being torn off & it was lifted off the Ground
So that it was able to stand up on 2 Feet like a Bar Enasha ('son of man')
And the Mind of a Son of Man was being given to it to speak words of Blasphemy.

Andd lo, there stood before me a 2nd beast, which had the appearance of a Bear
It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth.
It was told to him: ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’
After that, I looked, and behold: there before me was another Beast, one that looked like a Leopard.
And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird having 4 Heads,
And Lo, it was given a Throne and the the Authority to rule.

After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—
Terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth;
And lo, it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.
It was different from all the former beasts, in that it had 10 Horns .
While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one,
which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it.
This Horn had eyes like a Son of Man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

So the above text was the 'vision' source for the writer - the application of which however was to his 'own days' ('of the End') which the author of Revelation believed 'was very near at hand...' i.e. during the Jewish War of AD 66-72 - and not any vague future related to 2012 !!