Hamas' Powerful New Weapon Alters Strategic Calculations Along the Gaza Strip

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Precisely, many of the members here with zero military background fail to understand how a tandem warhead or HEAT round works.

The explosive is focused on a small spot. This creates an explosive jet which penetrates armor. These arn't the kinds of weapons that make large explosions. When armored vehicles cook off from being hit by shaped charges its due to ammo and fuels igniting not the penetrator.

Often the munition requires a hard target to trigger the warhead, otherwise the warhead doesn't go off and acts simply as a big bullet. There are examples of this from Iraq where warheads did not go off after penetrating the soft skin of M1025s.

Yeah, that's it! I won't mention where (because PETA may be watching, and some folks don't need nekkid women in red paint cavorting around), but once, during a demonstration, I saw most of a goat blown back out of a hole the size of a 50 cent piece in an M113 APC that was buttoned up with the goat inside and hit with an AT rocket with a shaped charge warhead. Punched the hole as pretty as you please, scoured off some of the paint around it, but blew everything available inside it back out through that hole that the jet punched through the skin.

Nasty, nasty, and the APC could still be driven after clean up and some repair.

Also, there was an example from Mogadishu of an RPG, which is also a shaped charge AT rocket, going completely through the door of a hummer, and embedding itself in the ribcage of the driver without exploding. They're not fool proof (especially the Russian and Chinese made ones!), and they DO sometimes act like great big bullets on a rocket motor!

reply to post by backinblack


There were panels in the floor blown out and luggage compartment doors were blown open.

This could be either from the energy released upon impact or possibly from the explosive jet from the shaped charge, very likely both.

As far as the debate goes on what type of weapon used on the school bus, I can say with about 99 percent certainty reviewing the photos that it was not a mortar round (Former 11C Infantry here). Can't honestly rule out a rocket as there are so many variations of warheads available for them.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that Israel will implement increased aggression Hamas and there isn't a doubt in my mind that's exactly what Hamas wants. There is a good chance the rabbit hole goes even deeper, and Hamas intentionally revealed its new arsenal so Israel and likely the western allies will be looking at who supplied those weapons. If a country such as Iran or Syria is so much as accused of supplying laser guided missiles to Hamas, they will just made their alliance strong with that country. Whether its the actual case or not its a good military strategy for a weaker enemy to draw in stronger allies.

Honestly I posted this particular article in the breaking news forum because its just one of the many recent events that I'm afraid might very well be the precursor to a large scale multiple nation conflict. Regardless if war breaks out there tomorrow, or ten years from now, events such as this will be just one example of events that lead to the conflict.

reply to post by Xcathdra


What a rant...

I have said nothing I don't stand by...

You can quote away to your hearts content..
Too many conflicting stories to draw a consistent conclusion..

BTW, must have earned a bonus for that lengthy post..
One of you longest yet..
Pity it didn't add much..
Only a reposting of your previous diatribe..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Often the munition requires a hard target to trigger the warhead, otherwise the warhead doesn't go off and acts simply as a big bullet. There are examples of this from Iraq where warheads did not go off after penetrating the soft skin of M1025s.

We get that mate but this "so called" missile hit the engine block..

If whatever it was did not detonate then please explain all the blown out windows..
I can't for the life of me see a "big bullet" doing that...

If it hit the engine block, most of the force would have gone into punching a hole in the engine, and the rest would have been dissipated and directed as a function of where the block deflected it to. Also in that case, the block itself would have acted as a "shield" (because of that deflection) for a certain area on the other side of it, which may explain the injuries rather than fatalities.

In that case, a lot depends on where the engine sat specifically, and whether the hit on it was high or low.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by backinblack

 

There were panels in the floor blown out and luggage compartment doors were blown open.
This could be either from the energy released upon impact or possibly from the explosive jet from the shaped charge, very likely both.

What??
The "so called" panel on the floor was obviously an inspection cover..
It seems the blast must have come up through that and yet we see little damage below that missing cover..

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by backinblack

 

I can assure you a big bullet will blow windows out. You are familiar with with cannons? An inert round can still release a tremendous amount of energy, especially kinetic energy penetrators such as the APFSDS aka Sabot round or the long rod penetrators being developed for use in railguns.

To add, If it did hit the engine block, the explosive jet may have emptied into the engine.

edit on 14/4/11 by MikeboydUS because: to add

The equivalent of 10 kgs of TNT emptied into the engine bay yet didn't even blow off the back panel on the bus ??
Really, this is getting silly..

Aren't engines generally wide open to the ground beneath in unarmored vehicles? Path of least resistance...

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by backinblack

 

Israeli journalists.

Here's some more:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48d12e45b5dc.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/afa83a9a1ac9.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c3967f1de64f.jpg[/atsimg]

I don't know much about school buses, what I do know is subliminal messages and how they are used to play on peoples emotions.

Each 1 of those pictures shows a small childs stuffed toy,

An anti-tank missile fired from the Gaza Strip struck a school bus in the Negev on Thursday, critically wounding a 16-year-old boy and setting off a fierce round of clashes between the IDF and Palestinian terrorists. The missile, which was fired by Hamas, hit the bus moments after most of the children got off, while it was driving near Kibbutz Saad, about 2.5 km. from Gaza. Only two people were on the bus when it was hit – the driver, who was lightly injured, and the boy, who was en route to visit his grandmother. The bus driver is a friend of the fam

source

again I don't know much about Isreali school children, but is it common for a 16 year old boy to have 3 stuffed toys?
or where they the drivers toys?
I will leave it up the the fine people of ATS explain this one to me

reply to post by nenothtu


Be honest,
If you came across that bus on the side of the road what would your initial thoughts be as to what caused that kind of damage?

reply to post by nenothtu


I had a guy in my unit whose M1025 was hit by an RPG in the back hatch and it went through the truck and exited through the windshield. No one was seriously injured, but it did provoke involuntary bowel movements.

I blame hollywood for this misunderstanding about shaped charges. In movies everything blows up like a thermobaric warhead, even anti tank weapons. Hollywood also has everything blow up on impact, which doesn't always happen. In real life 40mm grenades need enough distance to arm or they don't blow. In movies though you can fire an M203 or M79 at point black range and it explodes like 500 lb bomb going off.

reply to post by nenothtu


Please write a reply in this thread, I've been waiting for someone to bring a critical piece of information to support the IDF claim that it was an anti-Tank missile.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I call it a lie because anti-Tank missile would easily rip through the unarmored layers of the bus. Either the armor is strong enough to cause a huge explosion, or it will rip right through, neither has happened. The black stain in the back of the bus shows the weapon has exploded.

It looks more like a home made rocket, see the black stain on the ground?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/407c4a2b77ac.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by munkey66

again I don't know much about Isreali school children, but is it common for a 16 year old boy to have 3 stuffed toys?
or where they the drivers toys?
I will leave it up the the fine people of ATS explain this one to me

Good point..
A 16 year old boy with teddy bears..

Also note the well placed brown teddy is on TOP of the shattered window...
Now how the heck did it get there???

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

What a rant...

I have said nothing I don't stand by...

You can quote away to your hearts content..
Too many conflicting stories to draw a consistent conclusion..

BTW, must have earned a bonus for that lengthy post..
One of you longest yet..
Pity it didn't add much..
Only a reposting of your previous diatribe..

YOur inability to admit when you are wrong is reinforced by your refusal to acknowledge the post. It lists all of your circular arguments and contreadictions to date.,

Sorry if the truth hurts... Ignoring it doesnt make it untrue.

As far as too many inconsistencies, you ar4e correct, there are. Sadly, they are all yours. All of the quotes are yours.

Seriously.. read it.. All of your contradicitons on this topic, your inability to accept facts, sources etc. I have even provided a list and quotes where you stated what, and the answers given.

Hamas admits it was behind the attack
Hamas admits it used a guided missile
Hamas admits it intentionallay targeted the Bus.

Any other argument is pretty much irrelevant.. The incident occured and cant be undone.

It just set the next cycle of death and destruction.

Originally posted by backinblack
We get that mate but this "so called" missile hit the engine block..

If whatever it was did not detonate then please explain all the blown out windows..
I can't for the life of me see a "big bullet" doing that...

Here I am getting drawn into the argument. Sorry but loud decibels can blow out windows. You don't think the force of a moving missile wouldn't shatter glass? A missile without a warhead at all would blow out all the windows just from the shear concussion of the impact. Not to mention if I was on a bus that just got hit by some type of weapon from the sky I wouldn't wait to run out the exit door, I'd be busting out the nearest window to get out.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by munkey66

 

again I don't know much about Isreali school children, but is it common for a 16 year old boy to have 3 stuffed toys?
or where they the drivers toys?
I will leave it up the the fine people of ATS explain this one to me

Good point..
A 16 year old boy with teddy bears..

Also note the well placed brown teddy is on TOP of the shattered window...
Now how the heck did it get there???

Plant one thing in a picture would not prevent you from planting more or even adding more to a story.

I may be wrong, but is that black and white thing a big stuffed Girrafe or a coat, either way, once again a little strange design for a 16 year old by

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by munkey66

 

again I don't know much about Isreali school children, but is it common for a 16 year old boy to have 3 stuffed toys?
or where they the drivers toys?
I will leave it up the the fine people of ATS explain this one to me

Good point..
A 16 year old boy with teddy bears..

Also note the well placed brown teddy is on TOP of the shattered window...
Now how the heck did it get there???

So unlike every other country on the planet who uses school buses to transport children, its not out of the realm of possibility for something to have been left behind?

quite the smoking gun there...

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

It's difficult for me to see "victims" where they continually poke the badger with spoons. Now, if the badger attacked without being poked with the spoons, that would be a different story altogether. Some times, when you pick a fight, you get it. Hard to see a "victim" in that.

But honestly, do you not concede the Palestinians are being "poked" daily with the continued push of illegal settlements on their land?

Not yet, but it could be coming.

See, from what I can gather, both sides appear to want it ALL, and claim ALL of the land is "theirs". I'm not aware of Israeli settlements in Gaza, which is the stronghold of Hamas, and the source of many of the rocket attacks, but they could be there without my knowledge.

I thought the current bone of contention was Israeli settlements on the West Bank, which is Fatah turf, isn't it?

reply to post by Xcathdra

YOur inability to admit when you are wrong is reinforced by your refusal to acknowledge the post. It lists all of your circular arguments and contreadictions to date.,

Sorry if the truth hurts... Ignoring it doesnt make it untrue.

Mate my argument isn't circular..
It has been the same from page 1..
You spamming the same posts and links over and over does not change that..
You are getting boring and repetitive..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Come now. You of all people should be aware that shaped charges, as usually employed in anti-armor work, have "directed force". The blast is focused, which is the purpose for shaping the charge. What you appear to be looking for is omnidirectional damage from a static charge, and you KNOW that won't be found if there was a shaped charge in play.

I don't see any evidence of any decent sized blast consistent with what is being discussed..
Even with the supposed inside pics I've now seen..

Not one panel blown off inside or outside the bus..

Panels? Aren't you the one who contested the pictures that were presented of the interior because "the rear window appeared intact", and it wasn't in the bus you saw previously? Here's an experiment to try: Go to an external wall of your house, and try to kick the wall out. Hurts, don't it? Now try to kick the window out instead.

It even works as a merely Einsteinian Thought Experiment.

A bomb is no smarter than we are, and it will damage what is easiest to damage first as well. If that damage allows for sufficient energy release, then it stops right there.

reply to post by Xcathdra

So unlike every other country on the planet who uses school buses to transport children, its not out of the realm of possibility for something to have been left behind?

quite the smoking gun there...

Yeah and it luckily flew around inside the bus long enough for the windows to shatter and fall on the floor then miraculously glided down onto that shattered window..

I'll buy that..