Hamas' Powerful New Weapon Alters Strategic Calculations Along the Gaza Strip, page 23

This is a news headline from January 2, 2009:

Hamas possesses a "new weapon" to face Israeli armor in case Israel decides upon a ground invasion into the Gaza Strip, a senior Iranian official and ranking cleric told worshippers in Tehran today. According to former Iranian president Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanjani, chairman of Iran's powerful Expediency Council, the advanced weapon would allow the Palestinian militant group to target Israeli tanks "from a long distance."

Hamas Has Secret Anti-Israel Weapon, Says Iranian Cleric

reply to post by Xcathdra

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A missile slamming into a school bus, and failing to detonate, could be one cause. If thats the case, anbd the pictures could lend support to that theory, would then allow the possibility of Israeli authorities being able to confirm what weapon was used by recovery of the failed device.

If that were true then Israel would have had the pictures of the device plastered on every world news outlet within hours..
To do so now would seem fishy, too much time has passed..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

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A missile slamming into a school bus, and failing to detonate, could be one cause. If thats the case, anbd the pictures could lend support to that theory, would then allow the possibility of Israeli authorities being able to confirm what weapon was used by recovery of the failed device.

If that were true then Israel would have had the pictures of the device plastered on every world news outlet within hours..
To do so now would seem fishy, too much time has passed..

To take your side of the argument, not neccisarily. The Israelis say it was a missile attack on a school bus. Its irrelevant to public opinion if the missile failed to detonate or not, and Israeli would not risk loosing support in retaliation by acknowledging that.

Its easier to showcase a missile attack on a school bus, rather than confuse the issues itself with technicalities.

Now, if you will excuse me I need to go take a shower.. I feel dirty for being on your side on this post as devils advocate

reply to post by MikeboydUS

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Your pics look odd..
In the first pic, wheres all the rubbers etc hanging down from the rear window that you clearly see in the second pic?

They don't seem to match..

reply to post by Xcathdra

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I'm still trying to find the original Arabic statement, help me out on that, the original statement claiming that 1# The Brigade targeted the bus intentionally, meaning the weapons had targeting capabilities. #2. The weapon was an anti-Tank missile.

As you can see the back of the bus is pushed in wards, that is the point of impact, and from the dark dust it is obvious that the weapon must have exploded. Regarding anti-Tank missiles, it either explodes or doesn't.

In the OP scenario, if the anti-Tank missile did explode, it would have destroyed the whole bus, if it didn't it would have ripped through the bus.

Neither is true. an anti-Tank missile hitting an unarmored bus have a low possibility of exploding, but from the photos we see it has exploded, we can see the point of impact.

In no way does this make sense, why would the resistance claim responsibility is a good question. I'm still searching for the original Arabic statement.

reply to post by Xcathdra

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Now, if you will excuse me I need to go take a shower.. I feel dirty for being on your side on this post as devils advocate

Well then I need a good soak in a bath and a scrubbing brush after giving you a star..

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by nenothtu

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Please write a reply in this thread, I've been waiting for someone to bring a critical piece of information to support the IDF claim that it was an anti-Tank missile.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I call it a lie because anti-Tank missile would easily rip through the unarmored layers of the bus. Either the armor is strong enough to cause a huge explosion, or it will rip right through, neither has happened. The black stain in the back of the bus shows the weapon has exploded.

It looks more like a home made rocket, see the black stain on the ground?

To be honest, most of the information I've gathered on this specific incident has come from this thread. Most of my replies have just been general observations on how things go BOOM!, most specifically applied to shaped charge warheads.

Anti-tank weapons have shaped charge warheads of one variety or another, and I can't see anything inconsistent in the photos with a shaped charge.

BackInBlack says it hit the engine block. That would absorb most of the energy, and deflect the rest. In a mostly downward deflection, you'd see the ass end of the bus jump up from the ground slightly as a reaction to the downward deflection (like a rocket engine propels a rocket) and leave a star-shaped burn in the road as shown in your picture, with the center of the star shape directly below the center of the blast or deflection of the blast. The black streaks are scorches left from the spread when the re-directed blast was again deflected by the road surface (again, like a rocket exhaust). What was left to deflect upward would blow out windows and then dissipate.

There should be, in that case, either a blown out hole into the bus passenger compartment (near the engine compartment), OR blown out access covers, to admit that part of the blast to the interior.

Mostly I think what is being argued here at this point is the size of the warhead, rather than the form of it - whether it was one of these newfangled Russian AT guided missiles, or something lighter.

I'm not sure which thread you wanted me to post that in, but feel free to quote and link to this post if it was the other thread that you meant. We're all friends here, even when we're fighting like cats and dogs. I reckon maybe it's either an Aussie, or hillbilly, or brotherly thing. Knock down, drag out, then off for a brew.

Edit to add: Most of the blast in the "huge explosion" of an AT warhead is directed through the hole punched in the armor into the interior of the vehicle, since the entire thing can't penetrate the armor intact. In the case of a sheet metal bus body, it COULD punch through, and not really detonate until it hit the engine block.

Also, what is that thing beside the road in your photo? looks like an aluminum rocket engine body, complete with fins.

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

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Try this..
www.paltimes.net...

reply to post by Xcathdra

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Firstly that is not the original statement, that is written in the reporter's own words.

Non the less this report doesn't say they targeted the bus, nor does it say they used an anti-Tank missile. It says they targeted the occupation, aiming that specific road because tanks which fire towards Gaza use that road and that road connects military sites.

It doesn't say they targeted civilians with intention, nor does it say they used an anti-Tank missile with guidance system.

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by Xcathdra

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Firstly that is not the original statement, that is written in the reporter's own words.
Non the less this report doesn't say they targeted the bus, nor does it say they used an anti-Tank missile. It says they targeted the occupation, aiming that specific road because tanks which fire towards Gaza use that road and that road connects military sites.
It doesn't say they targeted civilians with intention, nor does it say they used an anti-Tank missile with guidance system.

Did you get that from the link I gave you??

reply to post by backinblack

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Yes, cat posted the same link and I looked at it carefully, no where does it say they targeted the bus intentionally nor that they used anti-Tank missile.

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

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Well this is what Xcahdra posted from that link though I'm not sure where they got the english translation from as I didn't see it on the site..

أكد أبو عبيدة الناطق باسم كتائب القسام الجناح العسكري لحماس أن العدو الصهيوني يتحمل مسؤولية التصعيد في غزة والذي أسفر عن استشهاد ما يزيد عن خمسين فلسطيني وإصابة العشرات خلال الأسابيع القليلة الماضية ، مضيفا أن المقاومة تستهدف مواقعاً عسكرية لا كما يزعم الاحتلال أنها مدنية.

ونفى أبو عبيدة في مؤتمر صحفي عقده عصر السبت في غزة مزاعم الاحتلال بأن الحافلة التي استهدفتها كتائب القسام قرب ما يسمى كفار سعد شرق غزة أنها مدنية مؤكدا أنها حافلة تتنقل بين مواقع عسكرية وتمر على طريق عسكري يشكل حزاما أمنيا لتحرك الدبابات التي تطلق القذائف بحق شعبنا.

وشدد الناطق باسم القسام أن إصرار العدو على المضي في عدوانه الهمجي لن "يثنينا عن الرد بالطريقة المناسبة ، مشيرا إلى أنه لا يمكن الحديث عن تهدئة بينما الاحتلال يرتكب المجازر بحق أبناء شعبنا.

وختم أبو عبيدة بتجديد العهد على المضي "جهادنا وثورتنا ضد الاحتلال ومعنا كل الثوار والأحرار في العالم حتى تحرير فلسطين"

English Translation

Confirmed Abu Obeida, a spokesman for al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas military wing, that the Zionist enemy has the responsibility for the escalation in Gaza which resulted in the martyrdom of more than 50 Palestinians and wounding dozens in the past few weeks, adding that the resistance targets military sites, not as the occupation is alleged to be civilian.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

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Panels? Aren't you the one who contested the pictures that were presented of the interior because "the rear window appeared intact", and it wasn't in the bus you saw previously? Here's an experiment to try: Go to an external wall of your house, and try to kick the wall out. Hurts, don't it? Now try to kick the window out instead.

It even works as a merely Einsteinian Thought Experiment.

A bomb is no smarter than we are, and it will damage what is easiest to damage first as well. If that damage allows for sufficient energy release, then it stops right there.

Come on, look at the pics and the bus design..
The engine compartment is below floor level which is set quite high to allow luggage storage underneath like in many tour buses..
The blast came from the engine bay obviously..
There are no floor panels blown up except that one little inspection door..
Are you saying enough blast came through that one little hole to blow out nearly every window in the bus?
But then when you look just below that panel there are smallish white tubing's etc that show no signs of damage..

Sorry. I've been desperately trying (and dismally failing) to keep up with the thread, so I'll have to go back and review the photos again. You'll no doubt notice that I'm still a couple of pages behind, and scrambling.

It's possible for that much pressure to come through a hole that size, but that probably wouldn't explain the metal spray seen in the pictures. Might there be another hole we haven't noticed or seen yet? If not, then the spray from the molten metal could become a real problem.

reply to post by backinblack

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I used an arabic to english translation program. Does anyone have access to the Offical Hamas website?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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Odd that I was told a similar story about the "Couple Thousand Years War" by a Syrian around 1978. In his version, though, Rome had already been defeated. According to him, Syria would not now exist as a bastion of Islam if the Romans hadn't been defeated by the Muslims. He said Syria was a Roman area before the Muslims handed Rome's own ass back to it, and just took Syria from them.

Israel "kick out the zionists" and make peace ( I presume you mean for them to make peace with Islam) at what price? Death really IS prefferrable to some of the price tags attached to some things these days, and one of those price tags seems to be the eradication of Israel anyhow, so what difference does it make to them if they go down swinging or go down whimpering? Dead is still dead, in either case.

As far as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam being outlawed in a NWO goes, that's been done to all of the above (well, maybe not Islam - I don't know of anywhere it has ever been outlawed) before. Oddly, it tended to strengthen the other two and give them more converts every time it's been tried. Probably a bad strategy, but it's Rome's to pursue if they wish.

reply to post by Xcathdra

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I think this is the official website of Qassam Brigade. I'm not sure but check it out:
www.qassam.ps...

These are their latest statements.

Al Qassam Brigades mourn Ibrahim Baraka
(13-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired five mortars at the military site "The Third Eye"
(09-04-2011)
Press Conference about the aggression on Gaza 9-4-2011
(09-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired three grads at the military base "Of-Keem"
(09-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired two mortars at the military site "Nir Es-Haq"
(09-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired four homemade rockets at the military site "Ashkol"
(09-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired two homemade rockets at the military site in Karm Abu Salim
(09-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Ahmed Nabil Az-Zeitounia
(09-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Tyaseer Abu Snaima & Mohammed Awaja
(09-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired (3) mortars at a military site east of Karm Abu Salim
(08-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Ahmed Ghrab
(08-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired (3) mortars at "Sofa" military site
(08-04-2011)
E.Q.B. fired (3) mortars (6) homemade rockets at Zionist military sites
(08-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Raed Shehada
(08-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Abdullah Al Qarra & Mu'taz Abu Jame`a
(08-04-2011)
Al Qassam mourns martyr Saleh al- Tarabin
(07-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Mansur Abu Aser
(04-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn three of its members
(02-04-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Hasan Abu Jaber
(01-04-2011)
Press Statement on March 21st, 2011
(21-03-2011)
E.Q.B. fired (33) mortars Zionist military bases near Gaza
(20-03-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Ashraf Faraj Abu Hana
(20-03-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Adana Eshtaiwi & Ghassan Abu Amro
(16-03-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Abdul Hamid Abu Ghali
(09-03-2011)
E.Q.B mourns the Mujahed Mamdouh Abu Harbid
(24-01-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Zaher A. Jarghoun
(18-01-2011)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Basheir Mdoukh
(15-01-2011)
Abu Obeida statement during the press conference in December 25th, 2010
(25-12-2010)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Zuheir Hasan Al Lahwani
(01-12-2010)
Al Qassam Brigades mourn Hamada Selah Al Jbore
(01-12-2010)

Non says anti-Tank missile, mortars, home made rockets, and mourn. I don't know what grad is (?).

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by Xcathdra

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I think this is the official website of Qassam Brigade. I'm not sure but check it out:
www.qassam.ps...

Based on the URL, it looks like it.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

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I'm thinking hard what else I could have missed, that might have led the Israeli authorities to a different conclusion than mine.

Simple, your conclusion would NOT allow Israel to garner support for an increase of aggressive actions including a possible "Cast Iron" like attack..

Wait... wasn't it his conclusion that it was a home-made rocket or a mortar that hit a school bus?

He didn't question that it was a school bus any where, did he, or that it was something warlike that hit it?

What part of "Dammit! They hit a schoolbus" would not garner support for Israel to get more aggressive?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
reply to post by Xcathdra

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I think this is the official website of Qassam Brigade. I'm not sure but check it out:
www.qassam.ps...

Based on the URL, it looks like it.

Would you not expect their confession would be on this site then?
I don;t seem to see mention of it..

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