French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

But not every government is the same. Not all governments are interested in pandering to a tiny minority, some would like to keep their culture as it is, without having to feel forced into guilt for doing so.

Every Government on earth has long been taken over by the International Shadow Government except a handfull of nations which yours is not one of.

Lax immigration standards and wars designed to cause migrations and refugee crisis are being waged by that International Shadow Government to dilute notions of national identity so that when they go to implement shared systems and amalgamations of nations there will be little resistence.

If the governments did not want this dissolution of national culture, and race to occur they would end allowing people to immigrate into the nation, and stop fighting preemptive wars designed to cause a refugee flood of immigrants into your nation.

What you want and what the Shadow Government wants are two different things, and the Government of France is not seeking this law to preserve french culture they would have done that by denying non-french people the right to immigrate, they are doing this because they simply want to expand their powers to regulate and to get popular support from it by playing to your fears that your culture is under attack.

It is but by your own government, headed by people in bed with Intenational Corporate Elites who make up the Shadow Government.

Want to preserve your culture, man up grab some swords and horses and ride out and put your life and freedom on the line to homogenize your nation.

Carefull how you organize it though since Hitler more or less tried to do the same thing which he is still being criticized for today!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yes, so it seems the people have CHOSEN that they are not happy with the burqa.

Not sure why it's so hard to understand, but maybe the French people and govt felt threatened or alienated by the oppressive anti-feminist rhetoric of the more extremist muslims.

France has a history of equality amongst sexes. So it's wholly understandable that they felt disgusted by the oppressive garments.

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

PT,

At this point your reply posts seem to be a bit demeaning to those of us who do not share you view of this topic. I would have expected a bit more tact and sound rationale behind them.

You know quite well that many ATS'er, including myself, share your view of all the smoke and mirrors used by very powerful elite entities and individuals who are positioning themselves to take command of the world through what more and more seems to be an economic apocalypse. That much appears to be obvious.

But if you think that one nation's government, even if it is a puppet institution, is taking the time out of it's world domineering scheming to use burqa's as a means to divide us even farther (if possible), then I think you are very mistaken.

But those are my thoughts and opinions, and although we do not agree, I'm happy that at least we have the means with which to share this argument.

I don't think I am very mistaken which is why I am speaking up on the subject.

The Shadow Government exist to divide people on issues where they can be divided, to keep them distracted on petty issues like this, to make them from time to time think that they have won something.

Meanwhile the wars expand in the Middle East and they are only possible because of anti-Muslim sentiment, and religious backing.

Japan still doesn't have it's reactor under control.

The banks are still on the verge of failure.

The US government is only now being temporarily funded, yet all of this is now better because France has outlawed the Burka!

This is absolutely a manipulation aimed at not so subtly reminding people in the west that Islam is the enemy, that it won't be an enemy though if it completely westernizes!

In otherwords if it allows itself to be coopted and incrorporated into the constructs of a western society bent on spreading itself through war and regulating every aspect of existence.

Don't think this is related, I would urge you to think again.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Not sure why it's so hard to understand, but maybe the French people and govt felt threatened or alienated by the oppressive anti-feminist rhetoric of the more extremist muslims.

It's not hard to understand. Oppression of a minority by a majority happens all the time.

If the people of the US voted to disallow short skirts because they were seen an oppressive garment worn by some women, you would support this, too, then?

reply to post by mr-lizard


Tyranny of the Masses, the majority nearly always wins but its not always right.

Originally posted by torqpoc
Dear 23432,

Thank you for the well thought out response. I'll take the time to respond to yours.

I don't think the "Arabisation" of France is the issue. Having lived there many years I think it is ingrained in the culture now. The Islamisation is another story, one which I won't even attempt to discuss here, however for the record I have read the Qu'ran.

To my eyes ; the Arab cultural practices seemed out of place in the heart of rural France . But it is indeed a changing world and this is by no means a unique situation valid only for France .
On the other hand one could argue that the beach resorts and tourism to be found in North African countries are also result of Europeanisation of North Africa .

I have also read the Koran , Bible , Tevrat too .

On to the Burqua issue again and your comments about Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. You're right about the terminology, but when it was "thought" about is another era. The social, political and cultural issues we have today were not around, so .. it's a tangible link to use, but ok let's discuss it.

Well , these principles are eternal .
They are not meant to be based on an ' era ' .
Actually , European moral superiority rests on these types of principles , does it not ?
By passing a legislation against personal choice in garments ; one is suspending these principles and that be would a situation worthy of King Midas'es era indeed .
A child can step up and call for the truth any moment : King is naked !!!

The liberals will be in uproar at the fact any government dares to oppress a "people" and dictate to them what they can and cannot wear. I don't doubt they will be, they will spout their rhetoric about "it is the beginning of the end" etc.. however sadly I don't think they really are thinking about their emotionally driven desire to defend their "freedoms". Let's make a simple link here for those reading. The wearing of the swastika will end you up in prison in Germany. Are the Germans in uproar at the fact they can't wear the Swastika? I don't think so, yet.. the government dictated to them it was illegal. Similarly in the UK you cannot wear a bike helmet when entering a bank, in case you are intending to rob it. Are all the bike riders in the UK in uproar?

These examples are not on par with the issue at hand here . It is rather difficult to find another issue similar to burqa issue .
The security angle have been played a lot . I don't see how a burqa wearing women is any different then a coat wearing women .
Both have ample hidden spaces to wear a suicide belt .
Recent suicide bomber in Russia wasn't wearing a burqa , she was wearing jeans and a ski jacket I believe .

There are Muslim women who wear the Burqua out of choice, you are right. However if you actually find and read the verse in the Qu'ran which discussed this issue, there is nothing within it which states they should be covered from head to foot in a garment which only allows for the eyes to be seen. The practice was born out of a male driven oppressive society. Should we decide to not allow that women to wear the Burqua even if she wishes to? That is the question, and the government of France decided yes.

Practice actually was born out of female rationalisation of power structure thru image . That is , some women discovered that they could attain some type of power with garments they choose to wear .

Men forcing women to wear burqa needs education of Kuran .
That is the medicine .
France has decided to punish women who freely wear this garment .
I think I know French well enough , I could say this law will be overturned in future .

They chose to because of the far greater number of women who wear the Burqua because they are told to, forced to, by their husbands. Husbands who hide behind a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran to subject their women to abuse, in France.
It is entirely within the rights of the French government and French people to make that decision. They did so and with the applause of many people.. and yes indeed our rights will be taken away to rapturous applause, one day, not this day.

It is of course for the French to decide what goes on in their country .
A word to the wise , burqa thing got a funny way of cathing up with it's oppressors .
Next guess might be to ask muslim men to not wear their beards long and also not wear traditional clothing of their ancestors .
If French people wants it , they can also have this too .
Would it be the right thing to do ?
No , imho .

If a majority of Muslim women do not want to wear the Burqua but their husbands beat them until they do, who should stand up to defend their rights? Do we continue to hide behind our daily newspapers as women and children are battered, or do we.. as a nation say stop. Today France decided to say stop. I don't think it's quite the same as deciding to invade Iraq or Libia under false pretenses though.. one could argue that where the ball should stop rolling is when something illegal is being done.. I don't think the French government deciding what can and cannot be worn within it's boundaries can be thought of as illegal, yet I am sure many Muslims will try to say it is.

Regards,
T

Many muslim women who voluntarly wear this garment will be offended and rightly so .
As long as this law don't persecute those women who wear thing out of their own will , then it should be OK .
We'll see how it goes .
My guess is that this law will not be enforceable in certain areas in France and thus de facto division of population will have begun .

Carefull not to further ingrain the ghettosation of suburs . That is what my advice would be to any sane French citizen.

Originally posted by diddy1234
Here in the UK we have had our 'British' civil liberties eroded for years.

What goes around comes around !

Maybe we should also do the same in this country.

Take for example hanging an England flag out of your window.
In some parts of this country, youd be stabbed for doing that.

and I am not joking either.

Why would you be stabbed.. is that because of the immigrants ?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Majority rule, minority rights.

That is what used to be universally understood as the way governance was supposed to work. That is, until certain groups used the law and words like 'tolerance' to turn things upside down.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

But not every government is the same. Not all governments are interested in pandering to a tiny minority, some would like to keep their culture as it is, without having to feel forced into guilt for doing so.

Every Government on earth has long been taken over by the International Shadow Government except a handfull of nations which yours is not one of.

Lax immigration standards and wars designed to cause migrations and refugee crisis are being waged by that International Shadow Government to dilute notions of national identity so that when they go to implement shared systems and amalgamations of nations there will be little resistence.

If the governments did not want this dissolution of national culture, and race to occur they would end allowing people to immigrate into the nation, and stop fighting preemptive wars designed to cause a refugee flood of immigrants into your nation.

What you want and what the Shadow Government wants are two different things, and the Government of France is not seeking this law to preserve french culture they would have done that by denying non-french people the right to immigrate, they are doing this because they simply want to expand their powers to regulate and to get popular support from it by playing to your fears that your culture is under attack.

So are you saying these fears are unfounded?

moderntribalist.blogspot.com...

French police seized illegal rifles, dynamite, and TNT from an Islamic militant group, said to have ties to al-Qaida’s leader in Iraq.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

The cultural abrasions that developed, especially between the rapidly growing Muslim community and the French, became the problem that could not be talked about/

www.sullivan-county.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Not sure why it's so hard to understand, but maybe the French people and govt felt threatened or alienated by the oppressive anti-feminist rhetoric of the more extremist muslims.

It's not hard to understand. Oppression of a minority by a majority happens all the time.

If the people of the US voted to disallow short skirts because they were seen an oppressive garment worn by some women, you would support this, too, then?

Short Skirt ?
Really ?.......

Its a little more than that dont ya think ?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Not sure why it's so hard to understand, but maybe the French people and govt felt threatened or alienated by the oppressive anti-feminist rhetoric of the more extremist muslims.

It's not hard to understand. Oppression of a minority by a majority happens all the time.

If the people of the US voted to disallow short skirts because they were seen an oppressive garment worn by some women, you would support this, too, then?

How is it oppression. France has made a sensible decision. 3 people protested. Hardly oppression. I'm sorry but you're clinging to straws here.

And no... I quite like short skirts, although i hasten to add, your wife would probably be jailed in Saudi for wearing short skirts.

Do you agree with that? After all the MAJORITY of Saudi's would happily jail her, and the minority wouldn't. Or does your logic only work one way?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I am in complete agreement with you on many things (especially the All roads lead to Rome) but as someone who has lived in nine different countries, I enjoy other cultures, that's why I travel. And yes, governments should reduce immigration.

Currently, I live in a small country with a tin-pot director at the helm, so the only paper I'm asked for is the international symbol of democracy -- the US Dollar. Here, the problem is impunity and a lack of laws.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Do immigrants to societies often arm to protect themselves? Gee I don't know ask the Mafia or the Jewish Defense League.

Do immigrants to societies that aren't welcome because they are different, speak differently, pray differently, dress differently often fear for their own safety?

If you look at the history of the United States and the trouble that the Irish, Itallians and others had, yes they very much do.

They are often preyed upon by their own through protection rackets, they often develop a black market and criminal underclass, that in part is sustained by other people in that culture who look to them for protection from persecution by the people who don't always welcome them with open arms.

I hate to break it to you but listening to a vast number of people on this site with their religious prejudices and biases, and their often angry and violent rhetoric if I were a Muslim immigrating into the west I would be frighted too.

Like the Italian and Irish Crime Syndicates in New York City I might be tempted to turn to the strength of familiar numbers.

None of this is new people, it's just a new boogie man integrating this time, one that happens to come from a part of the world our governments are at perpetual war with because they have Opium and Oil and yes they would very much like you to fear these people because they very much would like to control what they are violently trying to take away from these people, to use those resources to control you.

I think many of you imagine that Muslims don't read the internet, that they don't read your racist statements, your calls to make them second class citizens, to outlaw their religion and defame it, and that they don't therefore have a reson in the world to fear you!

Honestly I am a bit frustrated because half the time the so called 'awake' are confronted with an emotional hot button issue they fall right back on the very societal constructs meant to divide, cause conflict and empower the governments with more control.

I recently had some Afghans move into my building, my big fear, FBI surveillence would come along with them!

Nice people a young family, friendly and easy going, warm and hospitble, I took the time to humble myself right off the bad and appologize on behalf of America for what our country has done to theirs and to explain how politically the citizens are powerless to stop their government.

Believe it or not they understand that. That we aren't in control of our government, that we have no way to stop it.

So it all boils down to are you individually an intollerant enemy who fears and wants to persecute them, or are you a fellow human being who has empathy for them.

The latter will make you friends, the former will make you the opposite.

Originally posted by deessell

Lot of interesting things to say in your post. I especially liked your astute observation that the Burqua has symbolic power. Indeed it does! They become shadows, invisible.

Thank you .
I think I understand the issue rather well because I have witnessed it first hand . My cousin was a mini skirt wearing art student who looked rather attractive & bubbly .
Imagine my surprise when she decided to bag herself into a burqa and drop out , totally to become devout in her ways . Fast forward 30 years , her children are in their 20's now and noither of them wears the burqa .
It really is more complicated issue then we give credit for .

As a woman, I would feel uncomfortable being around "covered" women, unless I was LIVING in an Islamic country.

It actually is design to make you feel that way . These political islamists are quite good at what they do , eh ?
What I wonder is the feeling of freedom that these women say that they get by being a shadow .

The sects that enforce the Burqua are also the sects that believe in beating women and treating them like cattle. Is this a coincidence? I think not.

Beating women is a symbolic act in Islam . Any deviation from it , you have a muslim who is engaged in a sinfull behaviour .
Women do get treated like cattle but that is not unique to muslim countries only , is it now ?

They can wear whatever they want.. In their own country where it's accepted.

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

Majority rule, minority rights.

You clearly don't even know what that phrase means. That's MY argument!

Democracy therefore requires minority rights equally as it does majority rule. Indeed, as democracy is conceived today, the minority's rights must be protected no matter how singular or alienated that minority is from the majority society; otherwise, the majority's rights lose their meaning.

Read up on it. Source

Hey, how can I speak to someone who supports tyranny of the majority? You think the majority should have the right to oppress the minority. If you think white people should be allowed to vote that blacks can't eat in public restaurants, then I can't put up a defense to that.

It's just disgusting.
.

As others have said, this is just an issue of security. The hoodies and sunglasses are not veils over the face and head scarves are not banned, just full facial covering. France has decided that full facial coverings in public areas are unacceptable and those who do not like it may leave France, stay indoors, pay the fines, or follow the law.
In the early 1980's I spent time in the Arab world and carefully followed the laws that applied to me. The country I was in followed Sharia law where thieves had their hands SAWN off in the public square in front of an audience. Yep, no axes or scimitars, just a bone saw and the longest 10 seconds of some poor soul's life. We were warned not to pick up valuables laying on the street even to return them to the police because some of them were plants. A buddy left a camera on a bench and returned 3 hours later to find it untouched. I never felt put upon following the laws of any country I was ever in. If the locals could survive, so could I.

France does belong to the French, after all.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

moderntribalist.blogspot.com...

French police seized illegal rifles, dynamite, and TNT from an Islamic militant group, said to have ties to al-Qaida’s leader in Iraq.

Were they all wearing Burka's at the time of their arrest, or is the fact that they were Muslim enough for us to enact laws against the covering of the face, how many suicide bombers have actually been shown to be wearing a Burka at the moment of detonation, this law is set to be used by the state to outlaw the covering of the face, the only act left against cctv total control prison societies.

Governments should not be able to dictate what we wear.

Originally posted by deessell
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I am in complete agreement with you on many things (especially the All roads lead to Rome) but as someone who has lived in nine different countries, I enjoy other cultures, that's why I travel. And yes, governments should reduce immigration.

Currently, I live in a small country with a tin-pot director at the helm, so the only paper I'm asked for is the international symbol of democracy -- the US Dollar. Here, the problem is impunity and a lack of laws.

I am not against limiting or ending immigration as a way to preserve national culture or identity.

That's the only way it can really be preserved though.

Rome itself was a multi-cultural empire (the first) and multi-cultural city, many of the later Roman emperors weren't even Roman or Italian.

Rome is all about commerce and control of resources, and they have used national divisions to create a competition to secure those for the oligarchs and elite.

Once the oligarchs and elite are in complete control of the resources that make urban life anywhere possible they will collapse these nations in ugly bankruptices, religious strife, and ethnic rivalries to where they are no longer viable nations and a One World System of laws that regulate everything will be used to restore order, and the only way to get resources to survive will be through that government that the Corporations that control them all make to make the rules you have to live by to get resources to survive.

The most vital resource presently is oil, and the anti-Islam paranoia that the governments create and play up is designed to make sure you support the wars to give it to them.

It is what it is, people are simply fighting the people they have been pitted through manipulation to fight, the winning move is not being the dog or rooster that responds with a fight, but by being that person who fights those who are doing the manipulating, and that is really not the muslims.

That's our own corporate oligarchs.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

Do immigrants to societies that aren't welcome because they are different, speak differently, pray differently, dress differently often fear for their own safety?

Of course.

I hate to break it to you but listening to a vast number of people on this site with their religious prejudices and biases, and their often angry and violent rhetoric if I were a Muslim immigrating into the west I would be frighted too.

Hate to break it to you. The burqa is NOT a religious necessity. Do some research.

I think many of you imagine that Muslims don't read the internet, that they don't read your racist statements, your calls to make them second class citizens, to outlaw their religion and defame it, and that they don't therefore have a reson in the world to fear you!

Well since you're replying to me, I assume this is directed at me. Firstly, i'm not racist. I consider myself very open minded and have a good understanding of many cultures. Keeping them segregated would keep them as second-class citizens, whereas if the minority would embrace the French culture, they would become first class citizens.

So it all boils down to are you individually an intollerant enemy who fears and wants to persecute them, or are you a fellow human being who has empathy for them.

So does this apply to the muslims who are intolerant of French society? I have empathy, but i'm not blinded by political correctness .