French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

www.bbc.co.uk

A law has come into force in France which makes it an offence for a Muslim woman to conceal her face behind a veil when in public.

Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133, $217) and a citizenship course.

(visit the link for the full news article)

After reading this story this morning (11th April 2011) I can't help but wonder if this will be one of those little events that might lead to bigger things...??

Banning a Religious garment will be percieved by those whom it effects as an infringment to their liberties.....

Could it be used as an excuse to start trouble or inflame bigger divides....

The French run a secular society and therefore do not 'Bend Over Backwards' like we do here in the UK to try and PLEASE everyone.......... BUt I remember serious rioting in France several years ago in the cities and I wonder if that will be repeated in any way ?

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


I can understand banning any form of face covering for security reasons but not based on religion..
I mean you can't wear a helmet into a bank or many other buildings..

But to ban Muslim veils when people can still walk around in hoodies,scarfs and sunglasses is not right IMO..

i suppose it is religious?

i was under the impression it was cultural.

are you saying the arab/islamic culture and religion are the same?

good on france, i say.

reply to post by backinblack


I know that this topic has been discussed before BUT i didn't realise that they were ACTUALLY enforcing it as of today.........

Like you say Backinblack, it is or could be percieved as somewhat provocative against specific religious beliefs especially when Hoodies and scarves etc are not forbidden.......

I just see this as an excuse for more trouble and dare I say perhaps another distraction for the people to follow whilst 'something else' goes on in the world....

Regards

PDUK

Here in the UK we have had our 'British' civil liberties eroded for years.

What goes around comes around !

Maybe we should also do the same in this country.

Take for example hanging an England flag out of your window.
In some parts of this country, youd be stabbed for doing that.

and I am not joking either.

reply to post by fooks


fooks

You are correct in your initial assumption......... the law is cultural because France has a NO Religious bias (secular) society approach which 'protects' it's own French culture..... BUT we all know how people get animated and excited when they feel 'wronged' and i just see this as being percieved as a hit against a religious belief / right to wear a viel..

It will be interesting to see what happens........

Ia actually think the French authorities are being brave on this and I applaud them in trying to remove Religion as a potential divider in society....

Regards

PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


I think 2 women have already been arrested, just heard on the radio, will try and get some facts. Im not sure I would like to see the police in the uk arresting and fining women for wearing the burkha. Being a tolerant nation comes with many problems, but I would rather remain that tolerant nation than to start imposing measures such as the French. Just got a link.
www.telegraph.co.uk...

The women were arrested along with several other people protesting in front of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris against the new law.
Jourrnalists at the scene said the arrests came after police moved in to break up the protest which had not been authorised.
On Saturday police arrested 59 people, including 19 veiled women, who turned up for a banned protest in Paris against the draconian new law, the first of its kind to be enforced in Europe.

There is an old saying.

When in Rome , do as the Romans do .

It is cultural, but religion plays a huge part in culture.
The arabic speaking/muslim population in France (50% in some areas!) does not accept secularism at all, and it is a huge problem. They refuse to adapt to the countries laws and culture in any way.
I live in France, (for more than 20 years now) and they are literally being taken over in a slow invasion.

So laws such as this one hopes to at least make tiny steps in progressing towards some sort of cooperating point between the europeans and the arabs.

To their merit, they also forbid other religious things like wearing crosses and crucifixs. It is meant only to be enforced in areas where different peoples must work together- in the work place and in schools.
Everyone has full freedom to practice their religion, in their homes, in the places of worship, but the french really feel that a neutral space needs to be upheld in areas where all these differences get in the way of cooperation.

The population did uprise a bit when it first passed.... then that died down. But we are aware that we face the possibility of a violent uprising. They do this often, and decide to start burning everyones cars, and getting violent for any excuse.
But the french are becoming so bullied by this behavior that I support their getting enough balls to take that risk.

if it is so controversial, there is plenty of other countries that will let them wear that oppresive garb.
I'm happy for france for taking a stance here. why should they be made to put up with a blatant sexist activity that is usually tied in with extremist? should they sit back and accept the security threat? nobody made them move to france in the first place.

It is about time some country finally stood up to this disease of multiculturalism.

Nothing wrong with wearing and Islamic face veil in an Islamic country but I am sorry to break the news to them, they are in a Western country which is Secular with most Judeo-Christian values. If they feel that wearing the face veil is absolutely necessary there is always the international airport making trips to Abu Dhabi.

When you live in a country you assimilate into their culture, their ethics and values become part of yours. You do not try and change their lifestyle or their country in any way, you must be the one to adapt. Maybe now many Muslims will learn to assimilate and those who already have, congrats!

Originally posted by wingsfan
if it is so controversial, there is plenty of other countries that will let them wear that oppresive garb.
I'm happy for france for taking a stance here. why should they be made to put up with a blatant sexist activity that is usually tied in with extremist? should they sit back and accept the security threat? nobody made them move to france in the first place.

You're right, nobody made them move there..
But then these rules were not in place when they did move there..
France let them in as they were..
They probably came through customs with their veils on..
Now they are saying no????

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Reading the article you linked to I see they are intending to only enforce the new law "softly". That is probably the worse thing they could do in my opinion. If they let some women get away with it, such as rich Saudi tourists in an upscale store, then the poor woman who gets fined will feel doubly angered. If they are going to enforce it at all then it should be applied evenly and fairly.

I have a lot of ambivalence about this law. I personally don't care if a woman wants to wear a burkha, but at the same time I don't accept that there is any valid reason for it other than culture and stupid male need for control of their women. They are dangerous to the person inside of it in many circumstances.

Come to think of it, I am not so ambivalent. Perhaps it would make more sense if the law specified those circumstances in which the face cannot be covered rather than making a general public ban which might be going too far. Covering the face walking down the street doesn't put anyone but the wearer at risk. Driving the car, or entering a bank, court room or police station is a different story.

Dear Readers/posters,
I wonder how many of you commenting here in a negative sense to this ban are French or have actually been to France... not many I presume.

So, as a Frenchman and as someone who has been to France more than most, i'll comment on all the points you've raised.

On a security level it is undeniably a good point, yes a Burqua in it's existing format of covering all of the body except the eyes is a massive security issue. Men have been caught wearing the Burqua before, and it isn't a far cry to imagine a bomb jacket being hidden by one.

Now to the real issue here, and all you pro democracy people might be offended, I simply don't think you have thought the issue out enough though. To those who state France let them in as they were.. when most Muslims/Islamic followers entered France Sharia law and the Burqua were not worn. At the time it wasn't so much a cultural issue, or even religious issue. The first generation Muslims were more than happy to integrate, more than happy to abide by the law of the land. It is the newer more radical waves which have caused the issues in France.

When in Rome is a great point. France is, and will always be, a Catholic country. It is not a Catholic State however as religion and state have been divided for a long time. So all the points about religion made here or thought about are kind of moot. It isn't a question of the Catholics hating the Islamists, it would actually be more than other way around. If you go spend a little time in the parts of France now overrun by the more radical Muslims you won't feel like you're in France anymore. You will be spat on, you will be cursed at, you will be told to "Get out of their country". Kind of ironic isn't it? The country which allowed them to come in, fed them, clothed them, provided untold millions of healthcare to them is now "theirs" and they wish nothing but to take over.

That is the point and I praise the French government for finally making a stand. It has nothing to do with their personal rights being ignored, it has nothing to do with a cultural clash. It has to do with the line being crossed and people taking the p*ss. Mosques are being erected everywhere, the law of the land being floughted and everyone is cowering in fear.. enough is enough.

Eventually every country will have to deal with this issue. I hope when the time comes "your" country will have the balls to stand up to the more radical parts of Islam. The burqua is an abheration of that religion, it is an afront to women's rights and it stands for nothing but the complete degredation of that gender. Please do some research on the whole issue before you post.

Edit - I would like to add to the poster questionning "noone made them move to that country" - Please research the Algerian war. A huge number of Algerians who fought on the side of France had little to no options when the war ended, they were actually forced to move to France or face the wrath of the Algerians, ie.. be killed.

Further Edit - Ironically the Algerians I refer to were probably in the worst of places as they were completely seperated from their homeland and loved ones, and also to a certain degree badly treated by the French themselves. They are more commonly refered to as the "Pied Noir", literal translation black foot, which I presume comes from the fact that due to their skin tone, they have "black" feet. A large amount of the Muslim population which entered France is due to France's colonialisation of Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco. When the French pulled out of those countries, they didn't do so in a very positive sense, there wasn't very much education of the locals happening so infrastructures failed. The educated French are not proud of this, but well.. it happened. So lots of people from North Africa had again little option, they could stay in their country or move to France. Many (much like the Indians in the UK) chose to move to France as they believed it was "the land of promise" so to speak. This is the primary reason why France has so many North Africans as part of their immigration population.

Regards,
T

Ad hoc laws like these would not solve anything, IMHO. Restricting immigration should be the way to go, so that the fundamentalists will stay at home.

Originally posted by torqpoc

Eventually every country will have to deal with this issue. I hope when the time comes "your" country will have the balls to stand up to the more radical parts of Islam. The burqua is an abheration of that religion, it is an afront to civil rights and woman's rights. Please do some research on the whole issue before you post.

Regards,
T

Torqpoc

Thanks for your reply, it was very interesting and educational........... ref your above comment about 'researching' before posting............ I do think that some of the replies that come after the initial posting ACT as research and Learning too.......

If we all did every bit of research possible then there would be NO NEED for replies like yours and that would be a shame as it serves to educate others...

Regards

PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


Dear PurpleDog UK,

Thank you for the response (and for liking my response). I would like to state I wasn't being arsy about the comment to research, just making sure people understood a little more about this very volatile subject. Excuse my terminology if it came across as being a bit condescending, that wasn't my intention at all.

Regards,
T

reply to post by torqpoc



A very well thought out and very well written reply .

Thank you for your insights

i'll tell ya what, i live in hong kong and lantau island specifically, the last 3 years.

long story short, seen several women with the full burka 2 yrs ago, in my village.

not one since. surprised me big time.

in central or tst i don't see any at all.

there is a madrassa right next to the pizza place around the corner and

no one screws around, here. in fact, i am friends with the little kids. the adults, kinda just nod but friendly.

i don't know the official stand about HK and the burqua but i'd guess it's a no go.

the head scarves are ok because we have a lot of indo/malaysian/phillipino etc, domestic helpers here.

full metal jackets are a no no.

you get around 30C and it sucks in a tank top let alone a black full body suit.

if the country you live in says NO, then don't! lol!