French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

Originally posted by PurpleDog UK


ProtoplasmicTraveler and 2432

I get what you are saying, ie.. this is a thin end of the wedge to 'control' the general public BUT one thing you appear to both be missing is the Intimidation that wearing a Viel in public brings to those who are not part of that faith or , dare I say want to understand it......

Well , I can understand the issue of the intimidation .
Frankly speaking I am almost always uncomfortable in the presence of a women who is wearing a burqa .
My reasons to feel unwelcome in her presence is much more realistic .
By wearing such a garment she is stating a fact that she wants no male attention . That is what burqa tells me and I accept it .

It is similar to a situation where you happened to be walking behind a woman in a dark street and in order to make her feel safer , you would cross the road to the otherside .

When I see a Burqa wearing women , I just look away from them because that is why they are wearing the burqa .

In public, like wearing a crash helmet (not allowed in a bank foir obvious reasons) or a Hoodie (anti social for many reasons) or a scarf around one's face (aka recent protests in London et al) they are all intimidating to the vast number of those law abiding citizens who want to be peaceful and safe.........

While I understand and appreciate your genuine concern ; I need to add that this concern is really not justified and it is somewhat superficially installed in non muslims .
Think of it like this ; a woman who chooses to wear the damn thing is only following her individual right to wear what she likes .
It is not her intention to scare anyone . All she is asking : Leave me alone .
Under these circumstances , I can't see a justifieable reason to make her not wear what she wants to wear .

You both seem to be looking for excuses to help the minority cause to the detriment of the majority .......

Au Contraire , we are pointing out a far more fundamental flaw . Legislation of these type of nonsense has never worked in known history . It has always amounted to further erosion of individual's rights.

In public, why not have rules...... In private in your own space, home or whatever (where you don't affect others) then do what you want to .....simples..

PDUK

It would not work .
Turks banned burqa since 1923 and all it did was to make it more popular .



I wish it was as easy as banning but unfortunately , it doesn't look that way .

It is , in essence a gender issue which is wrapped up in a traditional cloak and placed on the alter of Islam .

Garment itself is the tool for a political power . These women who wear it voluntarly are in fact sending a message their non burqa wearing counterparts . The message says that they are morally superior .

That is the background of the issue we are discussing in here .

One girl is saying to another girl that she is better then her because of the garment she chooses to wear .

How would a legislation help in this crazy situation ?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I think it's a matter of culture and not terrorism. Parallel multi-cultures just don't work.

If you invite someone into your house for a meal Proto, you'd expect them to remove their shoes, wash their hands and have good table manners.

If the people you invite into your house start bothering your cat, treading mud around the house and refuse to wash their hands after using the loo, as well as insulting your wife's cooking, i'm assuming you wouldn't be too happy.

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


The burqua is not welcome in Western nations and I applaud France for this move.

All these do-gooders banging on about human rights.

Why didn't you protest when Turkey banned the burka. Which is a predominately muslim country. What about Egypt?

Or are only muslims allowed to make these decisions?

political correctness.

Originally posted by Dreine
Islam is a control device that is being used to overrun the moderate Western world under the veil of 'tolerance.'

So is Christianity.

P.S.... feel free to call me a racist or intolerant, I'm used to it by now.

I'm sure you are.

But I will not allow my freedom to be taken from me by politcal correctness.

How is your freedom being taken away by people wearing veils? From what I see, it is YOU who support taking away the freedom of others, and in the name of freedom.

Originally posted by Dreine
Enough with the apologetics trying to defend Islam under the cover of individual freedom!!!

Just so you know I disparage any and all religions equally so I hope you don't include me as some Muslim apologist I think any religious person is an idiot, sorry to all you religious folk, I don't spout off with my views and don't join any of the religious bashing threads, ever, because I have a real love of personal freedom and love that they can make their choices and live the way they think, if think isn't too strong a word, their god wants them to.

Dear Dreine,

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

PT,

You are one of the more intelligent and thoughtful posters I've ran across on ATS, and I respect your opinions for the most part.

However, by trying to boil this conversation down into a simple matter of 'clothing' I think you are doing Purpledog and others on this thread a great disservice.

Thank you for posting that, I wholeheartedly agree and would actually like to go further.

Stating the Burqua is only for the sake of modesty displays nothing but ignorance, it also is completely devoid of any insight into the mistaken interpretation of a few lines within the Qu'ran. It blatently symbolises the oppression of women. Were that to happen in the US the government would be up in arms, however because this is happening in France and sadly targets a specific religious group the liberals are going to use any and all arguements to cry about the infringement of personal rights without having any insight or experience.

I, for one, am ashamed at some of the thoughtless comments i've read today here.

Thank you for airing my thoughts.

Regards,
T

Originally posted by mr-lizard
All these do-gooders banging on about human rights.

Why didn't you protest when Turkey banned the burka. Which is a predominately muslim country. What about Egypt?

Or are only muslims allowed to make these decisions?

political correctness.

I have protested it's ban in both of those countries .



In both countries the women who wants to wear this garment has increased in numbers over the years .

That is what can also happen in France and that is what I am pointing out .

I think some of the people who are harping on about women's rights and liberty need to actuually start doing some REAL reading.

Start with reading about muslim feminists who abhor the shackle of the burqa. Or the muslims feminists and liberals who DON'T want the burqa.

Originally posted by torqpoc
Yes it is a security concern, much like wearing a bike helmet (closed) in a bank. The religious link, or even cultural isn't being discussed here.

Is the helmet in a bank thing law in France, here in the UK I regularly go into my bank with a baseball cap and sunglasses on and have no problems, I'm not bothered by the religious or cultural aspects just the FREEDOM aspect, I don't fear Muslims any more than I fear the French, I expect that all the main party leaders in the UK share my thoughts.

I equally do not care for Christianity, Islam, or Judaism as I see them as divisive in the least and threatening progress in the extreme.

If people of faith want to practice that faith peacefully then so be it. I am not against churches/mosques/tabernacles being built near me. I have no issue with calling the 25th of December "Christmas" although I am not a follower of Christ.

But I do thank you for calling me a racist. It proves that if you speak your mind and it is unpopular to the ears of some then it must be wrong!

End sarcasm.

Will you gladly submit to your Muslim overlords when the time comes? Or would you prefer a Christian dictator? Perhaps a Nazi warlord? Why is everyone so concerned with pushing different groups of people into close proximity and making them 'play nice' instead of letting us 'live and let live' in lands far apart from one another?

If I wanted to see burqa's everyday, I'd move to Mecca. Oh wait, I'm not a Muslim, so I can't. Where is the fairness in that?

I have no problem with anyone who wants to wear a burqua just do it in your own country. I am certain that the insane militant Muslims would not want our bikini clad girls walking around their streets, I could only guess that they would be rapped and then blamed for being rapped and then disposed of under some heathen law.

I dislike discrimination, so if these people can get away with wearing mussels, burqua's and such, I should be able to wear my balaclava around in public which I know of course I cannot, only the police can do that.

Unfortunately the Australian government has been invaded with money making do gooder's, so we have to suffer the fate. The French should feel proud.

reply to post by torqpoc


You know I took the time to reply to your U2U to me, you might want to take the time to read it.

You really are being played, and that's your choice to want to do so, but do bear in mind that the more you explain yourself the more you are displaying it's all about not liking a religion.

So in all reality what you are arguing for is there should be no religious freedom amongst religions you wouldn't join.

While at the same time having a hard time figuring out why people who belong to those targeted religions might not like you.

Lack of religious tolerance is what drives the underlying support of almost every war of aggression on the planet and the elite are using those phobias, fears and superstitions to slowly reshape the world into a increasinly more authoritarian New World Order that ultimately will backfire on not just all the religious but everyone.

People are foolish when they have these kind of knee jerk reactions the only thing you are winning is giving the government more power to regulate and dictate and it has to much of that already and accomplishes nothing good with it.

We need less government and not more government.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
All these do-gooders banging on about human rights.

Why didn't you protest when Turkey banned the burka. Which is a predominately muslim country. What about Egypt?

Or are only muslims allowed to make these decisions?

political correctness.

To be honest I expect France to hold to a higher standard than Turkey or Egypt, I'm really not a do gooder by the way and couldn't give a flying fig about anyone's religious sensibilities, I just like just laws, especially when I think they might affect me one day.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Proto, I usually agree with a lot of your posts. But i think France are 100% correct in making this decision. If it only affects (at the most) 2000 muslim women out of the 5 million muslim inhabitants, and only THREE people protested and this protects the security and attitudes of the French nation - then i'm all for it.

Unless of course countries like Saudi Arabia start allowing us a little freedom in their countries. Then muslims should adhere to French law.

Truth be told I am not concerned about Islamic Women being effected I am concerned about the Government being granted a right it should not have.

So much power that those who do attempt to protest in Western Democracies at places like the G-20 are labelled anarchists, and hooligans and vandals while being beaten with trunchons sprayed with water, and blasted with sound cannons.

And you want to give the government more power to regulate?

Power that must be alright if people don't protest, yet if people do protest it makes no matter, they are defamed, and put down like dogs.

You people really do need to wake up.

This is all going to end very badly for you if you can't stop fighting petty battles to man up and fight the big ones.

Our governments are bankrupt, out of control, at perpetual war and causing the refugee crisis through it that is driving the very Muslims you fear into your nations to get out of harms way of the bombs you are paying to drop on them.

Do they like you very much? Chances are no, and common sense would display why, you pay to drop bombs on them and vilify them every chance you get, and justify robbing them of their own freedoms and life based on fears that they might do the same to you.

We need to get power back in the hands of the people, not put more in the hands of the government.

The government isn't doing this to protect you, the government is doing this simply to expand its own power and give it one more.

Originally posted by 23432
It is , in essence a gender issue which is wrapped up in a traditional cloak and placed on the alter of Islam .

Garment itself is the tool for a political power . These women who wear it voluntarly are in fact sending a message their non burqa wearing counterparts . The message says that they are morally superior .

Lot of interesting things to say in your post. I especially liked your astute observation that the Burqua has symbolic power. Indeed it does! They become shadows, invisible.


As a woman, I would feel uncomfortable being around "covered" women, unless I was LIVING in an Islamic country.

The sects that enforce the Burqua are also the sects that believe in beating women and treating them like cattle. Is this a coincidence? I think not.

reply to post by deessell


Speaking of invissible shadows, could I have your number please!

Your social security number!

Your Drivers License Number!

Your Checking Account Number!

Your Membership Number!

Your Reference Number!

Your Discount Savings Plan Number!

Your Credit Card Number!

We are all already invissible to the point that we are nothing but numbers to the government and the corporations.

I wouldn't kid yourself on that score, you are in reality to the very people you are looking to protect you from your own fears and prejudices nothing but a number.

Here in the United States the right to privacy and anonymity was a central part of what the Founders were fighting for.

Things that have long since been given up by evangalical Christians who won't compromise on anything that is construed as sin, and people afraid of people who aren't just like them.

Now the Government can spy, tap, intrude anywhere it wants.

Yeah you have the right to be seen, virtually naked with a dangerous scanner that emmits harmful radiation at the airport.

You must be proud!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


But not every government is the same. Not all governments are interested in pandering to a tiny minority, some would like to keep their culture as it is, without having to feel forced into guilt for doing so.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Start with reading about muslim feminists who abhor the shackle of the burqa. Or the muslims feminists and liberals who DON'T want the burqa.

For me, it's not about the religion. The religion doesn't matter. Nor do the moral judgments about it matter. What matters people supporting a law that infringes on citizens personal choices. People should be free to choose WITHOUT government interference.

As I always say, People don't want to live in a free society, or else they'd support the rights of those with whom they disagree.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


PT,

At this point your reply posts seem to be a bit demeaning to those of us who do not share you view of this topic. I would have expected a bit more tact and sound rationale behind them.

You know quite well that many ATS'er, including myself, share your view of all the smoke and mirrors used by very powerful elite entities and individuals who are positioning themselves to take command of the world through what more and more seems to be an economic apocalypse. That much appears to be obvious.

But if you think that one nation's government, even if it is a puppet institution, is taking the time out of it's world domineering scheming to use burqa's as a means to divide us even farther (if possible), then I think you are very mistaken.

But those are my thoughts and opinions, and although we do not agree, I'm happy that at least we have the means with which to share this argument.