Trump is not letting up! Will Obama respond??

Originally posted by maybereal11
.. and the video is like a greatest hits collection of all the mocked up evidence the birther crew has ever tried.

Is this the 2nd or third time I've pointed out that that video is in the HOAX forum?

Signed,

Michel oops, I mean
BH.

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by STM777
I am asking BHO to simply release his BC.

Again...no offense, but so what. You seem to think that you have legal authority to demand that people turn over personal documents to satisfy your curiousity. You do not...I don't care if you don't trust the state of Hawaii...niether do the courts.

Originally posted by STM777

If you tried to introduce that computer print out with the largest seal you could find in my state's trial court, I would would object.

Uhhh.....OK. I am sure the judge would be very interested that the guy yelling in the third row officially objects to the full faith and credit clause of the constitution.

This is why the birther movement is considered fringe....your personal views do not equal law...nor do your opinions equal facts. Most people understand that about themselves.

1. I'm wondering where I said I have the legal authority to.......how did you put it to "demand" BHO's BC? I don't have standing to make such a request. Nor did I have the standing to "demand" Nixon turn over the White House tapes. Ultimately that led to a Constitutional crisis and this may end up in the same way. Bit of a straw man argument here?

2. Your not getting the best evidence rule. As an attorney, representing a party to an action, I would object to the computer print out you seem so found of waving around. The grounds and likely result of the objection are stated supra. I was referencing a hypothetical scenario.

I don't think telling people to shut up, stop asking questions and don't let yourself be part of a "fringe" movement is a reasonable way to prevail on the merits. Especially, when many of those same people had get their original birth certificate for lesser purposes. Why are the BHO apologists acting like we want to take out his kidney and slice it up, when we only want his BC for heaven's sake.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by STM777
I simply stated what the best evidence rule is and how it is applied. It's not my standard but the standard of trial courts all over this country and in many parts of the world.

And, as I said before, Obama is not on trial or in a court of law. So, what does this have to do with this issue?

A copy will be allowed into evidence only if the original is unavailable."

Sounds like your standards are higher than the courtroom's.

1. Wow.... where to begin. The best evidence rule is applied in court because the rule, as it states, requires the bona fide article, when available.

2. When the original article is not available, because is it lost or destroyed, then the copy is allowed. In order to get the copy into evidence, you would need the custodian of records to come in and testify that the original is lost or stolen and go through the chain of custody. Saying I don't believe I have to produce anything more than the copy doesn't suffice.

3. The fact that we aren't in court and BHO continues to stonewall not only violates his compaign promise to be transparent but also seems devoid of common sense to the many of us who have already produced it in our lives.

Springs man's claim to have Obama records starts buzz
Soc. Security number that starts with 042 would have to be born in born in Connecticut, not Hawaii.

“According to the Social Security Administration, that number was never issued,” said Hollister, who challenged whether the president is an American citizen in a lawsuit the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear Jan. 18 without requiring a response from the White House. Read more: www.gazette.com...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Is this the 2nd or third time I've pointed out that that video is in the HOAX forum?

Answer your own question. No link to the referenced message thread in the AboveTopSecret Hoax Forum? You do require those who post, to provide links, right?

If it's a hoax, then how, for example, was Mrs. obama's official statement produced? Perhaps the laser printed short form birth certificate belongs in the hoax forum.

There is a compelling opportunity for the radical far left:

You can totally shut down the entire Tea Party effort, and all conservatives, with absolute disgrace and extreme humiliation. Easy. Just publish the real birth certificate, provided the authorities in Hawaii can find it. If not, then the Mexican drug cartels have superior counterfeiting capabilities, for the right fee, they can produce the right piece of paper that will end conservatism and patriotism once and for all.

One small point; I don't matter, I'll take all the reprimands and ridicule obama's forces want to dish out; I'm nothing but a voter with one vote, nothing more.

Have a nice day!

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
No one spends millions to hide details that would not affect them in some way.

As obama has not spent millions to hide details - just what are you on about?

Just why did obama have to spend millions, when those details are private anyway?

Wrong. The details of his life became public when he chose to run for the highest office in the land. He's lied about a lot of things. DO a search for the discrepancies between his statements (written and oral) on various parts of his past, and the actual known historical facts. Plus he's hiding not only the long form birth certificate, but his school and work records as well. No other president has done this. Others have, in fact, shown their documents, and their histories are wide open. Yet you don't wonder why Obama demands such secrecy? He's hiding something. That's plain.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Plus he's hiding not only the long form birth certificate, but his school and work records as well. No other president has done this

So if you cannot show us the previous 10 presidents birth certificates, school records and work records then you are just telling birther lies again.... so show us those records!

reply to post by hawaii50th


You are totally incorrect to assume that a ssn that starts with 042 would have to be born in Conneticut .

I was born in Alabama and applied for my ssn in Texas . You do not have to apply for it in the state of your birth , that is entirely false . As a matter of fact , you don't even have to apply for it in the state you are residing in , you can live in Texas and go to New York to apply for it if you so choose .

Here is a bit of an explanation I posted in another thread :

The first three digits are known as the 'Area Number" . Prior to 1972 , these numbers were representative of the state in which the number was issued .

However , you were not required to apply for your SSN in the state you resided in . You could live in one state and apply for your number in another state .

For numbers issued after '72 , the first three digits were dependant upon the zip code of the mailing address provided on your original application .

And again , it is not obligatory that your mailing address be in the same state as your residence .

So , I don't see where any of this is relevant .

www.ssa.gov...

www.ssa.gov...

It is also a lie that the number was never issued .

SSN




[RED] denotes required field | = wireless number | = NEW record
This social security number 042-68-4425 is valid and was issued in Connecticut.

www.advanced.netdetective.net...

This is a paid subscription site , so you would have to join to view the actual page . I can't leave the page open and post it here , otherwise my account stays open all the time .

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


For the love of all that is good, DROP IT ALREADY!

There is a recession, we are in 3 wars and this country is falling apart.

There's no reason to get hung up over a goddamn piece of paper!

Originally posted by Adonsa
No link to the referenced message thread in the AboveTopSecret Hoax Forum?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My posts are full of links to back up what I claim, so don't even go there. The hoax part of the video is Obama's "admitting" that he was from Kenya. I thought I had posted it here, but it was in another thread.

You can totally shut down the entire Tea Party effort, and all conservatives, with absolute disgrace and extreme humiliation.

Why would I want to do that? I like the some of the Tea Party platform and I have a lot of conservative values. I don't want to shut anyone down or disgrace anyone... I will support your curiosity and right to ask and search for answers, but I will also put up my view of the issue.

Easy. Just publish the real birth certificate, provided the authorities in Hawaii can find it.

You mean the "long form"? Because what he published is very REAL. Birthers just don't accept it. A person CANNOT get the original, by the way. The original of all of our BCs are stored in the vault in the state in which we were born. ANYTHING coming out of the Health Dept is going to be a COPY.

So, let's say Obama gets a copy of the long form and shows it on the Internet... then all the birthers would accept it as the real thing and they'd have to move on to REAL issues, right? Does that give you a clue as to a possible motivation of Obama's? Why would he stop his detractors from making idiots of themselves? If I were him, I'd let it ride. They're digging their own hole. From a political perspective, why interfere?

And I'm guessing that maybe 5% of birthers would be satisfied with the long form. 95% would say it's fake!

Attention Obama supporters!! Clean up needed in Aisle 12

Obama in 2002: Toppling Brutal Dictator a ‘Dumb War’
www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=10955831#pid10955831

Go get him Trump!! Time to redirect back to Obama's policies, actions and statements now that the double standard has been exposed!!

Originally posted by STM777

1. I'm wondering where I said I have the legal authority to.......

See Below.

Originally posted by STM777

If you tried to introduce that computer print out with the largest seal you could find in my state's trial court, I would would object.

Originally posted by STM777
I don't have standing to make such a request. Nor did I have the standing to "demand" Nixon turn over the White House tapes. Ultimately that led to a Constitutional crisis and this may end up in the same way. Bit of a straw man argument here?

Disconnect...apples to pandas...logical fallacy and misdirection...here I will give it a try.

I don't have the standing to demand that Pres. Bush prove he is not a member of Al-Qaida. Nor did I have the standing to "demand" Nixon turn over the White House tapes. Ultimately that led to a Constitutional crisis and this may end up in the same way.?

Originally posted by STM777
Your not getting the best evidence rule. As an attorney, representing a party to an action, I would object to the computer print out you seem so found of waving around. The grounds and likely result of the objection are stated supra. I was referencing a hypothetical scenario.

Yes and in that hypothetical scenario any judge who had ever attended law school would respond with the explanation that the "best evidence" rule does not apply to validated, certified government records.

That judge woud also explain that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the constitution dictates that every court in the land recognize such government certified records from the state of Hawaii without reservation.

He would also explain that the "best evidence" rule must demand relevant information to the suit and seeing as the "long form" certificate would contain no information relative to Pres. Obama's citizenship that has not been already validated via the COLB...the long form would be niether relevant to any suit, nor constitute best evidence by even the most liberal interpretation of the rule.

(1) Not relevant evidence...the COLB already addresses it.
(2) The COLB is a government validated record...not subject to the "best evidence rule"
(3) The Full faith and Credit Clause of the constitution mandates the court recognizing the COLB from Hawaii.

Originally posted by STM777
I don't think telling people to shut up, stop asking questions and don't let yourself be part of a "fringe" movement is a reasonable way to prevail on the merits.

Debunking BS is not the same as telling people to shut up. I appreciate your posts in the context that they allow honest and thoughtful folks to disect and highlight where how these falsehoods are constructed allowing reasonable folks to come to better conclusions rather than simply believe what propagandists like WND tell them to.

Originally posted by STM777
Especially, when many of those same people had get their original birth certificate for lesser purposes.

Confused ad infinitium. I have used my computer generated, validated, sealed, signed COLB to obtain a passport, drivers liscense and a couple years ago to recieve a security clearance when our company did some work for the gov in the simulation field. Never once did anyone ask about my "long-form".

You are either making stuff up or are confused. If you have a long form that has the registrars seal etc., that would suffice, but so would a validated computer generated COLB that is more common today and what most state agencies issue nowdays.

Originally posted by STM777
Why are the BHO apologists acting like we want to take out his kidney and slice it up, when we only want his BC for heaven's sake.

What is a "BHO Apologist"? To me it seems a buzzword without substance coined by folks hoping to discredit folks without actually having to respond to facts.

I certainly have never apologized for any of Pres. Obama's actions, nor do I agree with all of his policies or actions. For me this debate is about honesty and how any public debate should begin with folks telling the truth rather than simply making things up.

There are folks that have an honest view of Pres. Obama....and still wish he would release his long-form, while at the same time acknowledging that all the evidence supports him being a natural born citizen. Those folks are rarities.

There are honest folks that have simply been duped by WND, Taitz etc. and haven't fully examined what they have been told...but the overwhelming majority of the "birther" movement cares not for the truth or evidence and repeatedly proves this through ignoring facts and manufacturing evidence. Those folks I consider "birthers". It speaks to an agenda that has nothing to do with facts, evidence or the truth. They ignore evidence, manufacture thier own and rely on a long string of bias opinions posted on crazy bias sites, while never independantly investigating the issue or examining facts in opposition to thier views.

I have regulary read WND, Obamafiles, stuff from Corsi, Taitz etc. and researched each claim. They are not confused...they lie. they mock up evidence, edit video and texts, ignore genuine evidence...it is easy to discover...just suspend trust no matter what the source, find the root of any claim and test it against other sources and come at it as nuetral as possible and a picure of reality emerges.

Of course that assumes that the goal is finding out the truth rather than begining with an emotional view and searching for "evidence" to support that view.

Originally posted by Adonsa

You can totally shut down the entire Tea Party effort, and all conservatives, with absolute disgrace and extreme humiliation.

..... that will end conservatism and patriotism once and for all.

Tea Party does not equal Birthers
Conservatism does not equal Birthers
Patriotism does not equal Birthers

Congress passed a resolution declaring President Obama was born in Hawaii...how many conservatives took that opportunity to make thier voice heard? ZERO...the vote was 378 to ZERO.

No this isn't about the TP, Conservatives or Patriots....it is a movement that comprises mostly people so motivated by hate and racism that they are eager to manufacture evidence and spread outright lies.

I do afford room for the uninformed and confused...as well as those that simply prioritize idealogy over self respect...but racism and hate play a strong role as well. Most of the birther fictions play to xenophobic fears.

Even Bill O'Reilly is against the idea that Obama was born outside of the US:

www.huffingtonpost.com...

But no matter how much credible evidence, their are people who just like to hate.

This 'issue' only exemplifies how little substance people like Trump, Palin, Huckabee, et al have in their critique of Obama. Of all the things to criticize the guy over, claiming his BC is 'fake' is gotta be one of the most pathetic. Might a well claim he's a gay commie muslim. Oh, right, they do that too.

Originally posted by maybereal11
Yes and in that hypothetical scenario any judge who had ever attended law school would respond with the explanation that the "best evidence" rule does not apply to validated, certified government records.

That judge woud also explain that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the constitution dictates that every court in the land recognize such government certified records from the state of Hawaii without reservation.

He would also explain that the "best evidence" rule must demand relevant information to the suit and seeing as the "long form" certificate would contain no information relative to Pres. Obama's citizenship that has not been already validated via the COLB...the long form would be niether relevant to any suit, nor constitute best evidence by even the most liberal interpretation of the rule.

(1) Not relevant evidence...the COLB already addresses it.
(2) The COLB is a government validated record...not subject to the "best evidence rule"
(3) The Full faith and Credit Clause of the constitution mandates the court recognizing the COLB from Hawaii.


Debunking BS is not the same as telling people to shut up. I appreciate your posts in the context that they allow honest and thoughtful folks to disect and highlight where how these falsehoods are constructed allowing reasonable folks to come to better conclusions rather than simply believe what propagandists like WND tell them to.

Confused ad infinitium. I have used my computer generated, validated, sealed, signed COLB to obtain a passport, drivers liscense and a couple years ago to recieve a security clearance when our company did some work for the gov in the simulation field. Never once did anyone ask about my "long-form".

You are either making stuff up or are confused. If you have a long form that has the registrars seal etc., that would suffice, but so would a validated computer generated COLB that is more common today and what most state agencies issue nowdays.

What is a "BHO Apologist"? To me it seems a buzzword without substance coined by folks hoping to discredit folks without actually having to respond to facts.

I certainly have never apologized for any of Pres. Obama's actions, nor do I agree with all of his policies or actions. For me this debate is about honesty and how any public debate should begin with folks telling the truth rather than simply making things up.

There are folks that have an honest view of Pres. Obama....and still wish he would release his long-form, while at the same time acknowledging that all the evidence supports him being a natural born citizen. Those folks are rarities.

There are honest folks that have simply been duped by WND, Taitz etc. and haven't fully examined what they have been told...but the overwhelming majority of the "birther" movement cares not for the truth or evidence and repeatedly proves this through ignoring facts and manufacturing evidence. Those folks I consider "birthers". It speaks to an agenda that has nothing to do with facts, evidence or the truth. They ignore evidence, manufacture thier own and rely on a long string of bias opinions posted on crazy bias sites, while never independantly investigating the issue or examining facts in opposition to thier views.

I have regulary read WND, Obamafiles, stuff from Corsi, Taitz etc. and researched each claim. They are not confused...they lie. they mock up evidence, edit video and texts, ignore genuine evidence...it is easy to discover...just suspend trust no matter what the source, find the root of any claim and test it against other sources and come at it as nuetral as possible and a picure of reality emerges.

Of course that assumes that the goal is finding out the truth rather than begining with an emotional view and searching for "evidence" to support that view.

edit on 31-3-2011 by maybereal11 because: (no reason given)

1. I've been a trial lawyer for the last 20 years. You are 100% wrong on the best evidence rule. Computer generated copies, irrespective of their certification/validation, will not suffice if the original is a available. Availability is the dispositive term. Computer copies might satisfy your requirements at the DMV but they won't work in court. Arguing the point any further would be inane on my part..

2. Your Full Faith and Credit Argument is ambiguous, irrelevant at at odds with my experience on a multitute of issues. Ambiguous because you make an overbroad assumption as to the Clause's impact. Sorry, your generalization doesn't comport with my experience practicing insurance law. It's also irrelevent to the issue. For instance, although states have to recognize contracts between each other, the manner and form accepted by the receiving state is up to that state. That's why 11 states and are currently considering provisions that will require BHO to produce a certified copy of the original in order to be on that ballot. If that occurs our discussion here would be moot.

3. The point you make regarding the COLB having everything you need for citizenship, assumes an American birth. Again, I don't make that assumption. In other words, you are assuming the point we are trying to determine.

4. I am using the term "apologetics" to describe you defending BHO's position of not releasing information. Not apologizing, saying you're sorry, for something he did wrong. I'm using apologetics in its classical Greek sense.

5. I'm glad you were able to use your COLB to obtain a driver's license. Myself and millions of others couldn't get away with it. Especially for a security clearance. Ironic how the Commander in Chief doesn't have to pass through the same whoops as his subordinates.

Candidly and obviously, we are worlds apart. I have never read Taitz, or Corsi. I did read the pleadings in the Berg Case and Keyes case. The fact that BHO has released virtually nothing from his background, marriage records from his parents, divorce records, high school records, Occidental college records, Columbia records, Harvard records, his law practice records (even Hillary did that), records regarding his license to practive being pulled in 2002, State Senate records, In the end, I gues the Country received what it deserves.

Originally posted by STM777
The fact that BHO has released virtually nothing from his background, marriage records from his parents, divorce records, high school records, Occidental college records, Columbia records, Harvard records, his law practice records (even Hillary did that), records regarding his license to practive being pulled in 2002, State Senate records,

Please show all those records for the last 10 Presidents.... if you can.

If you cannot show them why should only Obama have to show them? Because he is black!

Originally posted by STM777
I've been a trial lawyer for the last 20 years.
...
Ironic how the Commander in Chief doesn't have to pass through the same whoops as his subordinates.

On what evidence do you base the above quoted statement, Mr. Prosecutor? In other words, how do you know that Obama didn't show his original, long-form Birth Certificate to a government representative or agency to prove his citizenship status during the campaign? How do you know which "whoops" he passed through?
.

reply to post by dereks


Im of mixed decent,Just like Obama,btw..... This line of assumption that everyone who questions his legitimacy is VERY old........ I know many different shades of people who question it. In the end,we are ALL human.

yeah Obama will respond, he'll say he's still waiting on confirmation that Trump's hair is real. They'll laugh, we'll cry, and countries will be bombed.