Creator or Chance Accident - I will prove this to you!

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The objective evidence is that nothing can flow up stream without choice, consciousness, purpose and design. Nothing escapes entropy. Life is the defining factor. All of nature flows one way, except for life. A dead acorn rots. A live acorn grows by a design with purpose. It is encoded with information. Even the information cannot activate apart from that "Magic" of life. The soul is the modem between the spirit and the material.

Life does not go against entropy at all. Life does not flow any differently than any other non living open system.

Quantum dynamics backs me up. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle; quantum entanglement; it all points to God under the hood. They all back up the physics in the Bible. Fiat Lux (let there be light) is the start of all physics. The duality of light is the fact that all particles have an associated wave. The LOGOS is an idea that predates all our science. The Son of God is the WORD. Word is LOGOS and is a wave. This is all of physics in a nutshell.

Big bang theory does not support the biblical creation mythology. There was no light emitted according to the theory of the big bang. It took millions of years for the first star to form before light was first propagated through the cosmos.

According to Hermes and the Poimandres:

Direct quote, "I Nous, your God, who was before the watery substance which appeared out of the darkness; and the clear Word from Nous is the Son of God."

According to the Bible, John 1, "In the Beginning was the WORD (LOGOS). The Word in the Bible is the Son of God, Christ. The wave that is associated with the Light. Again, all of physics is summarized in the opening line of the Bible and then in the conclusion with the Son of God being revealed as the associated wave to God. A wave carries the particle to our consciousness. Again, simplicity in parable. A metaphor for the mind. God in symbol. All of reality is this image of man in God's image. Nature declares the glory.

There was no light nor sound at the beginning of the universe according to modern scientific theory of the big bang. I'm sorry, but science does not back up the biblical creation myth.

The most important thing you could possibly read is this: Your inheritance is the Universe. Ephesians Ch. 1-3

What do you get in your inheritance? The Universe.

Deuteronomy 4:19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.

What is Heaven? The Universe.

Heaven as depicted in the biblical mythology is not the universe proper, it is a separate spiritual realm in which God resides.

Really is more about what is not seen than what is seen in the image of the material world. How much more proof can you deny? It's so obvious if you just dare to believe that the material world of decay is not true reality.

What proof beyond scriptural quotes have you provided? Your creation mythology has no bearing upon other creation mythologies and adherents of other creation mythologies cite their own doctrines as evidences for their own truths.

I said nothing of the big bang. I was speaking of the microcosm, not the macrocosm. As far as the Big Bang is considered, it was high order and low entropy at the beginning according to current cosmology. Yet another unexplained oddity to our universe that escapes science and its lack of perception. Again, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The obvious conclusion is that, like a book written by an author, the pages started in order and sequence. Check this LINK.

High order and low entropy is a statistical fluke that goes against everything we know of physics. All life is at an astonishing state of high order compared to the matter that it come from. This is rising from low entropy to a state of high order. Backwards from the flow of the universe. A chicken egg is one state and the chicken is a higher state. REVERSE. The ENTIRE universe is on its way the other direction. Common sense proof. Read the few chapters in this book that is linked above.

To realize that or knowledge is ignorance
This is a noble insight
To regard our ignorance as knowledge
That is mental sickness

Lao Tzu

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

The objective evidence is that nothing can flow up stream without choice, consciousness, purpose and design. Nothing escapes entropy. Life is the defining factor. All of nature flows one way, except for life. A dead acorn rots. A live acorn grows by a design with purpose. It is encoded with information. Even the information cannot activate apart from that "Magic" of life. The soul is the modem between the spirit and the material.

Life does not go against entropy at all. Life does not flow any differently than any other non living open system.

Quantum dynamics backs me up. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle; quantum entanglement; it all points to God under the hood. They all back up the physics in the Bible. Fiat Lux (let there be light) is the start of all physics. The duality of light is the fact that all particles have an associated wave. The LOGOS is an idea that predates all our science. The Son of God is the WORD. Word is LOGOS and is a wave. This is all of physics in a nutshell.

Big bang theory does not support the biblical creation mythology. There was no light emitted according to the theory of the big bang. It took millions of years for the first star to form before light was first propagated through the cosmos.

According to Hermes and the Poimandres:

Direct quote, "I Nous, your God, who was before the watery substance which appeared out of the darkness; and the clear Word from Nous is the Son of God."

According to the Bible, John 1, "In the Beginning was the WORD (LOGOS). The Word in the Bible is the Son of God, Christ. The wave that is associated with the Light. Again, all of physics is summarized in the opening line of the Bible and then in the conclusion with the Son of God being revealed as the associated wave to God. A wave carries the particle to our consciousness. Again, simplicity in parable. A metaphor for the mind. God in symbol. All of reality is this image of man in God's image. Nature declares the glory.

There was no light nor sound at the beginning of the universe according to modern scientific theory of the big bang. I'm sorry, but science does not back up the biblical creation myth.

The most important thing you could possibly read is this: Your inheritance is the Universe. Ephesians Ch. 1-3

What do you get in your inheritance? The Universe.

Deuteronomy 4:19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.

What is Heaven? The Universe.

Heaven as depicted in the biblical mythology is not the universe proper, it is a separate spiritual realm in which God resides.

Really is more about what is not seen than what is seen in the image of the material world. How much more proof can you deny? It's so obvious if you just dare to believe that the material world of decay is not true reality.

What proof beyond scriptural quotes have you provided? Your creation mythology has no bearing upon other creation mythologies and adherents of other creation mythologies cite their own doctrines as evidences for their own truths.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The objective evidence is that nothing can flow up stream without choice, consciousness, purpose and design. Nothing escapes entropy. Life is the defining factor. All of nature flows one way, except for life. A dead acorn rots. A live acorn grows by a design with purpose. It is encoded with information. Even the information cannot activate apart from that "Magic" of life. The soul is the modem between the spirit and the material.

And by saying this, you're EXACTLY using the god of the gaps argument by filling a gap in knowledge with magic...hell, you're even saying so yourself

Quantum dynamics backs me up. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle; quantum entanglement; it all points to God under the hood. They all back up the physics in the Bible. Fiat Lux (let there be light) is the start of all physics. The duality of light is the fact that all particles have an associated wave. The LOGOS is an idea that predates all our science. The Son of God is the WORD. Word is LOGOS and is a wave. This is all of physics in a nutshell.

Preaching without evidence...and the physics of the bible are seriously flawed as the flood for example is physically impossible...even if you keep on repeating "the son of god is the word" with a serene smile on your lips, it's nothing but preaching

Direct quote, "I Nous, your God, who was before the watery substance which appeared out of the darkness; and the clear Word from Nous is the Son of God."

Preaching No facts or objective evidence whatsoever...

According to the Bible...

And more preaching...again, the bible isn't objective evidence

Ephesians Ch. 1-3

More preaching...

Deuteronomy 4:19 Blablabla...

More preaching...

Genesis 15:5

And more preaching...I wonder what your next argument will be...

Hebrews 11:3. That unseen would be the quantum dynamics of the microcosm (dark matter). He makes the claim that Word is His Son. Particle and Wave duality. Light is both a particle and wave. All particles have an associated wave. The sun and the wave of the moon makes life on earth. The egg and the wave of the sperm makes life in man.

Wave of the sperm...that would be an awesome title for a porn movie...but the way you're using it, it's just more preaching

Discourses of Rumi

"The lover of God realizes all these desires are truly the desire for God...blablabla...

Yup, more preaching...

Bible 1 Corinthians 13

And more preaching...still not a single ounce of hard objective evidence

There you go. More proof. If you need more, I've got plenty!

Copy/pasting bible verses ISN'T PROOF...it's called PREACHING

I don't think you realize what objective evidence means, and how important it is. Without it, everyone could just walk around claiming the universe was created by giant purple unicorns and gravity is really "intelligent falling"

reply to post by SuperiorEd

I said nothing of the big bang. I was speaking of the microcosm, not the macrocosm. As far as the Big Bang is considered, it was high order and low entropy at the beginning according to current cosmology. Yet another unexplained oddity to our universe that escapes science and its lack of perception. Again, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The obvious conclusion is that, like a book written by an author, the pages started in order and sequence. Check this LINK.

High order and low entropy is a statistical fluke that goes against everything we know of physics. All life is at an astonishing state of high order compared to the matter that it come from. This is rising from low entropy to a state of high order. Backwards from the flow of the universe. A chicken egg is one state and the chicken is a higher state. REVERSE. The ENTIRE universe is on its way the other direction. Common sense proof. Read the few chapters in this book that is linked above.

Do you know what an open system means in regards to entropy? Do you know what a closed system means in regards to entropy? Both do not work the same as each other. The universe as far as we know is a closed system, life is an open system.

I personally do not subscribe to any creation mythologies, be it spiritualistic in nature or scientific. Recent observations of our universe at large show structures that defy the theory of the big bang and no observation of our universe lends any credence to any man made spiritualistic creation mythology. You lack common sense, or at the very least lack proper knowledge of how an open system such as life follows entropy perfectly and does not go against it.

I do realize open and closed systems. Spontaneous processes tend to increase the entropy of the universe. Because of this, chemicals never reach equilibrium, allowing for life to thrive. This is called chemical thermodynamics. Self-replication decreases entropy, which makes it nearly impossible to explain the first cells developing chemiosmosis. This is a process that works just like a modern day fuel cell. Our fuel cells are not nearly as efficient. This is the problem with life starting off of a mechanical process like chemiosmosis. Without this mechanical process, no life. The obvious choice for life, apart from the elements and chemicals that are a result of life, would be a chemical process. These elements and chemicals that are byproducts of life were not there to start the mechanical process of chemiosmosis.

Since this was discovered recently, we have had to throw out the idea of the primordial soup. Chemiosmosis appears to be a highly designed feature to ALL life on earth.

Then there is the problem of explaining how proteins, specifically enzymes, lower the activation energy of chemical reactions. Remember, these chemicals were not there before life engaged. They are byproducts of life itself. Now we're back to chemical equilibrium. The enzyme affects this equilibrium. For live to exist, we would want the enzyme to lower the activation energy of the chemical reaction, making it happen quickly.

Enzymes have another DESIGNED trick up their sleeves. They force chemical reactions that should never be happening to happen quickly. Without going into too much here, two forces are at work that preserves chemical equilibrium. This is a requirement for life. It is a balance between the two directions of entropy to maintain equilibrium. This is equated with the enzyme executing a procedure through information and instruction. This is programming at its finest. This is a requirement to engage chemiosmosis. Ultimately, energy is derived from the sun and converted by this mechanical process, like an ultra efficient pump. Nothing is wasted, gained or lost. The only thing we can say here is that the cycles of nature produce life that is capable of rising, even while maintaining a state of equilibrium.

Again, this is not an accident. It happens as a consequence of information and design. Not just any design mind you. This is perfection of engineering. Nature should have done this through a purely chemical process, which is what lead us to assume the primordial soup theory. Nature is not obvious, it's perfection by design. It is interdependence and irreducible complexity. This is impossible apart from a creator with intention. Impossible apart form conscious effort. Otherwise, we are just a hot cup of water cooling to equilibrium.

More proof.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I said nothing of the big bang. I was speaking of the microcosm, not the macrocosm. As far as the Big Bang is considered, it was high order and low entropy at the beginning according to current cosmology. Yet another unexplained oddity to our universe that escapes science and its lack of perception. Again, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The obvious conclusion is that, like a book written by an author, the pages started in order and sequence. Check this LINK.

High order and low entropy is a statistical fluke that goes against everything we know of physics. All life is at an astonishing state of high order compared to the matter that it come from. This is rising from low entropy to a state of high order. Backwards from the flow of the universe. A chicken egg is one state and the chicken is a higher state. REVERSE. The ENTIRE universe is on its way the other direction. Common sense proof. Read the few chapters in this book that is linked above.

Do you know what an open system means in regards to entropy? Do you know what a closed system means in regards to entropy? Both do not work the same as each other. The universe as far as we know is a closed system, life is an open system.

I personally do not subscribe to any creation mythologies, be it spiritualistic in nature or scientific. Recent observations of our universe at large show structures that defy the theory of the big bang and no observation of our universe lends any credence to any man made spiritualistic creation mythology. You lack common sense, or at the very least lack proper knowledge of how an open system such as life follows entropy perfectly and does not go against it.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

This is impossible apart from a creator with intention. Impossible apart form conscious effort. Otherwise, we are just a hot cup of water cooling to equilibrium.

God of the gaps, look it up

Just because we don't fully understand something (like how life started in the first place), doesn't mean magic (aka god) was involved

Then you may as well call it evolution of the gaps. There are a myriad of possibilities when choosing implications to scientific research. The problem for science is this: They constantly choose the path of most resistance against God when drawing implications from theory. This skews all results toward bias like a magnet. Science has no business drawing implications when it comes to the existence of a God or Creator. Drawing this implication is not their business. Demonstrating relationships and explaining these relationships in the form of verifiable laws is there job. When the added factor X of bias is added to their equations, X muddles the results and theory becomes a house of cards trying to fill the gaps in the theory away from a Creator.

Drawing implications works more than one direction. Science continues to verify this odd little book called the Bible that dares to explain it all. The Bible matches science. Until we can explain how this can happen, we are left with the obvious excluded middle argument that unifies both sides of the debate. We are Created with a capital C. Purpose by design, observed by consciousness as a lesson for the evolution of the mind. We rise away from the flow of entropy. We are naturally more complex by the day. God selected it this way.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

This is impossible apart from a creator with intention. Impossible apart form conscious effort. Otherwise, we are just a hot cup of water cooling to equilibrium.

God of the gaps, look it up

Just because we don't fully understand something (like how life started in the first place), doesn't mean magic (aka god) was involved

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Then you may as well call it evolution of the gaps.

If it had "gaps" or stuff debunking it, it wouldn't be called a "theory"

They constantly choose the path of most resistance against God when drawing implications from theory.

Riiiiiight...every time some scientist develops a cure for a disease that's partially based on the theory of evolution, he's really thinking about how to "resist god". Makes total sense

This skews all results toward bias like a magnet.

And peer reviews prevents that...you know, peer reviews...the very thing religion won't allow

Science has no business drawing implications when it comes to the existence of a God or Creator.

Science only cares about OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE, it has no conscious. If a theory disproves religious dogma, it's because objective evidence contradicts it, not because evil scientists want to disprove religion

Drawing this implication is not their business.

More nonsense...

When Darwin came up with his theory, he didn't want to prove/disprove god...he was examining OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that lead to the formation of a theory that hasn't been disproven in over 150 years.

When the added factor X of bias is added to their equations

Again...peer reviews makes this impossible...

Science continues to verify this odd little book called the Bible that dares to explain it all.

On the contrary, it disproves many of the claims...like that silly global flood that never happened, or talking snakes, or humans popping up in their current form and not evolving...all nonsense as science demonstrates by backing it up with hard evidence. Sorry if you can't deal with reality

The Bible matches science.

Talking snakes, global floods that never happened, earth created in a few days, stars "stuck to the sky", comets being a sign of god, shrimp being an abomination, and a whole bunch of other nonsense that's demonstrably wrong. The bible clearly doesn't match science...

Until we can explain how this can happen...

So finally you admit we don't know for sure how for example life was created...FINALLY!

We are Created with a capital C.

I guess not...falling back to that ridiculous god of the gaps argument. Just because we don't know (as you admitted above), you can't just say magic did it. You're like a guy from the Middle Ages who claims the pest is a sign of god, or kings have some "god given right". Welcome to the 21st century

God selected it this way.

And that's a belief not based on logic, rationality, or objective evidence...just pure blind illogical faith. If it makes you happy, fine...but you look silly attacking science while your answer is "magic did it"

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Self-replication decreases entropy, which makes it nearly impossible to explain the first cells developing chemiosmosis.

I would agree with you if life was a closed system that self-replicated without any external energy input. Seeing as how this is not the case and it's the basis of your argument I can only conclude you do not fully understand that life is an open system and follows perfectly the law of entropy.

reply to post by sirnex


Shhhhhhh, facts aren't allowed if they contradict belief

Let me fill in a few gaps for you.

Shellfish.

Shellfish dwell on the bottom of most bodies of water. This is where the pollution settles. Shellfish were typically eaten raw in antiquity. Even today, raw shellfish such as oysters kill many people each year. Not only this, but shrimp in particular are ultra high in cholesterol. Bacterial contamination was no joke in antiquity. Today, we process most of the seafood and even irradiate it with coballt in some cases. In biblical times, there was no medical care for the average person. It was an obvious abomination.

Bias in Science

Point one: Dawkins. Point two: Funding bias. Point three: Hiring bias. Point four: Not all researchers discount a Creator. Don't ask dont' tell is their policy. There is a reason for this. It's called bias.

Pier-Review Process

UK House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology

RI Tricker
"Peer reviewers can act as barriers not gateways. The review process can put a straight-jacket on new thinking, alternative insights, and new paradigms when reviewers are hostile to theoretical insights that do not fit their own theoretical position or preconceptions. A good example can be found in the study of corporate governance. The agency theoretical methodology of financial economics has dominated research published in the field over the past 20 years. Whilst this has provided statistically neat and replicable results, the methodology tends to use published data, and researchers have no need to meet real company directors. Consequently, developments in the thinking and practice of the subject have been reactions to corporate collapses which led to corporate governance codes based on conventional wisdom, not serious research. If a subject becomes dominated by a particular theoretical paradigm, it becomes impossible for new thinking and alternative paradigms to be accepted."

It should be obvious that the gate keepers are guarding the gate to a Creation theory due to bias.

The flood

The flood has many possibilities that have been thoroughly explored. The Bible is, more often than not, an allegory pointing to deeper meanings. Not only are most biblical accounts based on actual events, they symbolically point to a number of other veiled meanings to develop the mind. This is the way of most allegorical writing of antiquity. There are two traits of anything worth reading from antiquity that can be considered inspired: The authors did not write his own words down and much of what is said is in parable, pointing the mind to symbolic understanding. This is precisely how the human mind operates best--with pictures in word. This serves two purposes:

1. Do not cast pearls to swine. In other words, if you are not worthy, you will not understand the deeper meaning. Only a mind that is in tune with the spirit of God can comprehend the deeper aspects of the images and forms in nature. This is verified by the way science notices that nature is as efficient as possible by design and not merely by face value. Chemiosmosis is a good example. We first thought that life arose by a chemical process of the primordial soup theory. We now know it could not have arisen by chemical processes alone. Chemiosmosis confirms this. We see clearly when we are sufficiently worthy to understand. Cause and effect.

2. Parable is revelation. The meaning arrives when the seeker of knowledge first arrives at the doorstep of the understanding. This is confirmed by the fact that we constantly notice the deeper meaning of wisdom as science confirms the logic and reasoning behind the wisdom. Again, which came first? The wisdom or the reasoning behind the wisdom. Refer back to the shrimp idea to see my point. It's an abomination to man, not God. He created the shrimp with purpose. Man eats it to his own detriment if it is not prepared well. Even when it is, a certain percentage of people will die form it each year.

Talking Snakes

No problem from a physics standpoint. Programming and information makes all matter into possibility as a resource through programming. I can image it is possible with sufficient understanding and manipulation form the Creator of it all.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Then you may as well call it evolution of the gaps.

If it had "gaps" or stuff debunking it, it wouldn't be called a "theory"

They constantly choose the path of most resistance against God when drawing implications from theory.

Riiiiiight...every time some scientist develops a cure for a disease that's partially based on the theory of evolution, he's really thinking about how to "resist god". Makes total sense

This skews all results toward bias like a magnet.

And peer reviews prevents that...you know, peer reviews...the very thing religion won't allow

Science has no business drawing implications when it comes to the existence of a God or Creator.

Science only cares about OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE, it has no conscious. If a theory disproves religious dogma, it's because objective evidence contradicts it, not because evil scientists want to disprove religion

Drawing this implication is not their business.

More nonsense...

When Darwin came up with his theory, he didn't want to prove/disprove god...he was examining OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that lead to the formation of a theory that hasn't been disproven in over 150 years.

When the added factor X of bias is added to their equations

Again...peer reviews makes this impossible...

Science continues to verify this odd little book called the Bible that dares to explain it all.

On the contrary, it disproves many of the claims...like that silly global flood that never happened, or talking snakes, or humans popping up in their current form and not evolving...all nonsense as science demonstrates by backing it up with hard evidence. Sorry if you can't deal with reality

The Bible matches science.

Talking snakes, global floods that never happened, earth created in a few days, stars "stuck to the sky", comets being a sign of god, shrimp being an abomination, and a whole bunch of other nonsense that's demonstrably wrong. The bible clearly doesn't match science...

Until we can explain how this can happen...

So finally you admit we don't know for sure how for example life was created...FINALLY!

We are Created with a capital C.

I guess not...falling back to that ridiculous god of the gaps argument. Just because we don't know (as you admitted above), you can't just say magic did it. You're like a guy from the Middle Ages who claims the pest is a sign of god, or kings have some "god given right". Welcome to the 21st century

God selected it this way.

And that's a belief not based on logic, rationality, or objective evidence...just pure blind illogical faith. If it makes you happy, fine...but you look silly attacking science while your answer is "magic did it"

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Talking Snakes

No problem from a physics standpoint. Programming and information makes all matter into possibility as a resource through programming. I can image it is possible with sufficient understanding and manipulation form the Creator of it all.

And more magic...it's BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for snakes to talk.

Your argumentation is so flawed and goes like this:

1) Snakes obviously can't talk.
2) Ergo god must have made it talk because the bible says so, so it must be true...aka magic.
3) Ergo god exists...

Stop trying to claim something is true when you have ZERO objective evidence. You are stating the conclusion, and then try to find evidence to support it instead of the other way around...and the "evidence" you post is subjective and mostly demonstrably wrong unless you bring in magic (for which we have zero proof).

As for shellfish, I've eaten hundreds (literally) of raw clams and regularly hunt my own lobster (diving) during summer. Not once have I gotten sick. And although you shouldn't eat clams from some places, it's not because the water is "muddy", it's because of HUMAN caused pollution. When the bible was written, the seas weren't as polluted as today, so there was zero danger in eating shrimp/clams.

The flood has many possibilities that have been thoroughly explored. The Bible is, more often than not, an allegory pointing to deeper meanings. Not only are most biblical accounts based on actual events, they symbolically point to a number of other veiled meanings to develop the mind. This is the way of most allegorical writing of antiquity. There are two traits of anything worth reading from antiquity that can be considered inspired: The authors did not write his own words down and much of what is said is in parable, pointing the mind to symbolic understanding.

So you're admitting that the global flood mentioned in the bible was symbolic for a local flood...cool

Yes to the flood. Just like the decree from Cesar for the census was not the whole world like it says. The whole world to the writer was his whole world. Same with the flood. We know that Nephilim showed up later in the Bible, so we can assume that they were not all destroyed.

You are looking for the Bible to be the exact image of God. This is not possible. The word of God is Christ, an exact image. The word of God is not the Bible. The Bible is a holy book reflecting God in an inspired image. Paradoxically, it is the holy word of God. All truth is a paradox.

For something to be true, it must also be false by degree. If I am smarter than you, there is always someone smarter. For me to say I hold some truth, there is always some truth higher than what I hold to be true. There are also those who hold a truth lower than my truth. That's not to say that they are not true, just not as true as I may be. This is the same as temperature. By degree. There is no such thing as hot and cold, only degrees of electromagnetic radiation in the form of heat.

God makes it clear that nothing in the material world can represent Him in image, because there is nothing higher than Him worthy of this depiction. You will always find flaws in the material world, even the Bible. Again, it's not the word of God, only the image of the word of God. Christ is the Son of God, LOGOS, Word of God. Man is also in the Bible as an image of God. You see man in the pages of the Bible with God standing right there beside. The Bible is the story of man's walk with God. Flawed as the image may be, Christ had no flaws. He suffered every step.

Suffering leads to reward. Choosing easy reward leads to suffering. Smoke and you get cancer. Suffer an education and you get the rewards that follow. Christ suffered at all times to serve man as the example of God's love for man.

Did the flood happen as depicted or is it just a parable of the judgment of man? Yes, both by degree.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Talking Snakes

No problem from a physics standpoint. Programming and information makes all matter into possibility as a resource through programming. I can image it is possible with sufficient understanding and manipulation form the Creator of it all.

And more magic...it's BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for snakes to talk.

Your argumentation is so flawed and goes like this:

1) Snakes obviously can't talk.
2) Ergo god must have made it talk because the bible says so, so it must be true...aka magic.
3) Ergo god exists...

Stop trying to claim something is true when you have ZERO objective evidence. You are stating the conclusion, and then try to find evidence to support it instead of the other way around...and the "evidence" you post is subjective and mostly demonstrably wrong unless you bring in magic (for which we have zero proof).

As for shellfish, I've eaten hundreds (literally) of raw clams and regularly hunt my own lobster (diving) during summer. Not once have I gotten sick. And although you shouldn't eat clams from some places, it's not because the water is "muddy", it's because of HUMAN caused pollution. When the bible was written, the seas weren't as polluted as today, so there was zero danger in eating shrimp/clams.

The flood has many possibilities that have been thoroughly explored. The Bible is, more often than not, an allegory pointing to deeper meanings. Not only are most biblical accounts based on actual events, they symbolically point to a number of other veiled meanings to develop the mind. This is the way of most allegorical writing of antiquity. There are two traits of anything worth reading from antiquity that can be considered inspired: The authors did not write his own words down and much of what is said is in parable, pointing the mind to symbolic understanding.

So you're admitting that the global flood mentioned in the bible was symbolic for a local flood...cool

edit on 5-4-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

What are marine toxins? LINK

Marine toxins are naturally occurring chemicals that can contaminate certain seafood. The seafood contaminated with these chemicals frequently looks, smells, and tastes normal. When humans eat such seafood, disease can result.

Paralytic shellfish poisoning is caused by a different dinoflagellate with a different toxin, than that causing ciguatera poisoning. These dinoflagellates have a red-brown color, and can grow to such numbers that they cause red streaks to appear in the ocean called "red tides." This toxin is known to concentrate within certain shellfish that typically live in the colder coastal waters of the Pacific states and New England, though the syndrome has been reported in Central America. Shellfish that have caused this disease include mussels, cockles, clams, scallops, oysters, crabs, and lobsters. Symptoms begin anywhere from 15 minutes to 10 hours after eating the contaminated shellfish, although usually within 2 hours. Symptoms are generally mild, and begin with numbness or tingling of the face, arms, and legs. This is followed by headache, dizziness, nausea, and muscular incoordination. Patients sometimes describe a floating sensation. In cases of severe poisoning, muscle paralysis and respiratory failure occur, and in these cases death may occur in 2 to 25 hours.

Neurotoxic shellfish poisoning is caused by a third type of dinoflagellate with another toxin that occasionally accumulates in oysters, clams, and mussels from the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of the southern states. Symptoms begin 1 to 3 hours after eating the contaminated shellfish and include numbness, tingling in the mouth, arms and legs, incoordination, and gastrointestinal upset. As in ciguatera poisoning, some patients report temperature reversal. Death is rare. Recovery normally occurs in 2 to 3 days.

Amnesic shellfish poisoning is a rare syndrome caused by a toxin made by a microscopic, red-brown, salt-water plant, or diatom called Nitzchia pungens. The toxin produced by these diatoms is concentrated in shellfish such as mussels and causes disease when the contaminated shellfish are eaten. Patients first experience gastrointestinal distress within 24 hours after eating the contaminated shellfish. Other reported symptoms have included dizziness, headache, disorientation, and permanent short-term memory loss. In severe poisoning, seizures, focal weakness or paralysis, and death may occur.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Talking Snakes

No problem from a physics standpoint. Programming and information makes all matter into possibility as a resource through programming. I can image it is possible with sufficient understanding and manipulation form the Creator of it all.

And more magic...it's BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for snakes to talk.

Your argumentation is so flawed and goes like this:

1) Snakes obviously can't talk.
2) Ergo god must have made it talk because the bible says so, so it must be true...aka magic.
3) Ergo god exists...

Stop trying to claim something is true when you have ZERO objective evidence. You are stating the conclusion, and then try to find evidence to support it instead of the other way around...and the "evidence" you post is subjective and mostly demonstrably wrong unless you bring in magic (for which we have zero proof).

As for shellfish, I've eaten hundreds (literally) of raw clams and regularly hunt my own lobster (diving) during summer. Not once have I gotten sick. And although you shouldn't eat clams from some places, it's not because the water is "muddy", it's because of HUMAN caused pollution. When the bible was written, the seas weren't as polluted as today, so there was zero danger in eating shrimp/clams.

The flood has many possibilities that have been thoroughly explored. The Bible is, more often than not, an allegory pointing to deeper meanings. Not only are most biblical accounts based on actual events, they symbolically point to a number of other veiled meanings to develop the mind. This is the way of most allegorical writing of antiquity. There are two traits of anything worth reading from antiquity that can be considered inspired: The authors did not write his own words down and much of what is said is in parable, pointing the mind to symbolic understanding.

So you're admitting that the global flood mentioned in the bible was symbolic for a local flood...cool

edit on 5-4-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

If you can answer this, you have more proof.

"Never let facts get in the way of Faith".

The whole "God" thing is a subject in itself. Myths and superstitions are very powerful, the "God" believers are no different to cultures that believed in Human sacrifice to bring rain, and allow a good harvest.
In fact, I think the Jews actually did Animal sacrifices to the Gods!! (before they made up the one God myth).

What is this fascination for the Myths of a bunch of nomadic desert tribes, who are only one step removed from Arab desert tribes? It has already been proved that the "Jewish Stories" are based on the texts of the Summerians, like the God Enki flood myth etc. (not saying that the flood was not a real event, the Ice Age only ended 12000 years or so ago, Man would have noticed the land being Flooded!! this is FACT not myth.)
Ancient Middle East tribes had 100s of Religions, some vying for supremacy over others. And using their Gods to kill other innocent people.....all very benevolent.

As intelligent people, as most ATS'ers are, logic would indeed query the "Teachings".
For example.....certain group make a big deal out of the "Virgin Mary".....
Hello!! the Virgin Mary was Married to Joseph, you can be assured from the very first night of marriage, Joseph would have been showing Mary his Jolly Roger every second he could, especially after a day tending his flock of sheep. She was as much a virgin as I am. .
And of course, we ALL know that a human egg needs real live human sperm to multiply, We know, without doubt, because of science, biology etc, that No spontaneous pregnancy is possible. They didnt have a clue 2000 years ago. Jesus had a Brother too, I understand ??

I love the Books of the New Testament, Versions of "Eye witness accounts" of the Miracles of Jesus.........But written years and Years after the event, up to 200 or more years, werent they believers?.
Interestingly, Most of the "Books" were written by Different people!! ...Paul, wrote a few apparently (or was it John or Peter ? doesnt matter either way). A few Were written by Annonymous, ....Maybe he was Greek!!
At the time, Paul (or whoever claimed to be the writer) was THE cele-brat-y of the Middle East, because of his "First Hand" accounts (recalled years later).
He was treated as a "Rock Star" of the time, wined and dined, and you-know whated, by the Heads of state, dignitarys etc etc. NATURALLY he did the only greedy Human thing he could do....He kept writing more "Factual" books of the World Of JC. to keep up his celebraty status and the gravy train on track.......Obviously his imagination would have tended to exaggerate few things, He was only Human after all !!..(dont let facts get in the way of a good story)......Naturally the People lapped it up.
Of course when the Romans got wind of this infactuation with all things Jesus by the Jews and Arab tribes, they could see the $$ signs, and as a method of Subduing the sheeple, took on Christianity as their own, Appointing themselves as Leaders ..with The Pope as the "GodFather". And everybody was happy along the way, as long as they did what GOD Said!!!! (eg the Leaders, preists, Fathers, Monks etc)
Of course, no one can know if the translation of the Hebrew Bible into Latin was 100% accurate, OR whether the Crafty Romans didnt tend to embelish the stories and myths, just a little bit, to suit their own agendas.........
OF COURSE, they Wouldnt do Anything like that, would they????.

So here we are today, with all the "God" fearing whiteys and others, all a praying to the Lord!!, Let there be Light!!

Praying To a Book, that was started as the Myths and Superstitions of the Summerians, Arab nomads etc, then added to by Eye witness accounts of Celebrity authors (who would never make things up or tell porky pies, would they), then taken over by the most ruthless and sophisicated Empire of ancient times, translated from Hebrew to Latin with a few suspected embellishments to suit the Times, then translated into German, then translated into Ancient English (with its double entondres (no I cant spell it), then translated into Modern English, then Interpreted Differently by every Pentacostal, Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, Evangelist etc etc to their own gain..........

Yeah...all really believable stuff.....Im converted. .

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by sirnex

 

Shhhhhhh, facts aren't allowed if they contradict belief

Exactly why he didn't reply to me on that and why he has yet to address the infinite regression problem created in his "proof". These kind of blind believers just amaze me to no end. They sound like they could be intelligent, they even have these nice long posts with lots of words in them, but once you read it, there's nothing there at all.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


GREAT POST! Love the way you used computer technology and virtual worlds to explain. And as the GOOD BOOK says "Only a fool says in his heart there is NO GOD!

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

GREAT POST! Love the way you used computer technology and virtual worlds to explain. And as the GOOD BOOK says "Only a fool says in his heart there is NO GOD!

So you believe God had a creator himself? In order for his analogy to hold true, there must be an infinite creator gods.

reply to post by sirnex
Yes, big words, no content. Syntactically correct statements with an enormous facility for explanation yet barren of actual meaning are common amongst pseudo-scientists and their idealistic drivel.