NTSB records: ATC waits 12 minutes to report AA 77 non-contact

According to the NTSB records of the Air Traffic Controllers (ATC) alleged conversation with AA 77...

Even though America was "under attack" and both planes had hit the towers in New York, the air traffic controllers waited a long casual TWELVE minutes to report anything out of the ordinary when AA 77 was non-responsive to repeated radio calls from two different stations.

There is NO WAY IN THE WORLD this could actually happen! Two planes already hit, and they decide to ignore the fact AA 77 (over the nations Capital!) is not responding to radio checks? Whatever standard procedure was, it was out the window on this day.

I want to know WHY they waited 12 minutes... in my opinion this is just another reason to question the validity of the NTSB alleged flight information.

Why? Cause they were either told to, or 77 was never a regular passenger flight to begin with, and had clearance to fly, ie military/gov reasons. I would like to know, given seeing plane crashes, how debris is spread over an 8 mile radius. Me thinks it was an empty drone and shot down, as to where the passengers are/went, we will never know.

*edit* Disregard I was thinking of 93


Deebo

Your numbers are off.

8:46:26 First impact
8:50:51 Flt 77 'Thanks' ATC (all seems normal on board)
8:56:32 ATC Starts Calling 77 (Maybe they were suspicious at this point)
ATC calls 13 more times
9:02:54 Second impact (Now we all know their intentions)


Between the 8:50 ‘thanks’ reply from 77 and the second impact, ATC attempted to contact 77 AT LEAST 14 times. (according to your numbers)

Where is this 12 minutes you speak of?
You are trying to imply ATC was not doing their job. Or were in some sort of conspiracy.

After 9 years you still can’t come up with any correct facts to prove a conspiracy.

Originally posted by samkent
After 9 years you still can’t come up with any correct facts to prove a conspiracy.

And another false statement in the OP is that the aircraft was over the Nation's Capital when contact was lost. I did not know the Capital of the US had moved to Western West Virginia.

I believe it's intentional that these ignorant idiots keep posting false information over and over again. It's essential to maintain the conspiracy and provides a reason to insist some unusual or nefarious was going on. If they really knew all of the facts and weren't ignorant of many of the issues there would be no truthers. Alas, here we go again for multiple pages arguing and/or discussing a non issue based on ignorance and lies......

ETA: One other point that is ignored is that the Controllers at Indianapolis did not know about the events in NYC. They were working instead of watching TV. I guess all truthers were glued to the TV's in 2001 and presume everyone else was too. If you don't work or never have I suppose that's a logical assumption... That along with a poor education and a lack of critical thinking skills promotes some of the crap, but some of it is also intentional I believe.....

Some very pertinent questions for the OP.

1) What are the procedures a controller is suppose to follow in the event of lost radio communications with an aircraft? Don't bother with truther oriented garbage. I want to know the Official FAA procedures that are supposed to be followed and why you think the INCORRECT time of 12 minutes was too long?

2) How long should it take for a controller to identify an aircraft that might have been hijacked?

3) What are your qualifications and/or expertise regarding this issue?

4) Why are you posting false and misleading information on a Website regarding the events of 9/11?

ETA: Just askin' questions.....JAQing

There are other very prominent problems with the OP. The OP states the Air Traffic Control tapes and transcripts are from the NTSB. They are not from the NTSB, they are FAA tapes and transcripts and the only relationship between the NTSB and the FAA is that they are related to Aviation and both are Federal Agencies. In fact, the NTSB not only investigates Aircraft accidents, but they also investigate other transportation related accidents. That's why the word Transportation is in the Title of the agency. The FAA is in charge of administering the National Airspace of the US.

Another problem with the OP is the use of the word "allege" or "alleged" when referencing these tapes and transcripts. Nearly all of the tapes or transcripts between Air Traffic Control and the aircraft involved in 9/11 are available on the Internet. They are a matter of Public Record. They are all VERIFIED and SIGNED by the Controller involved and/or the person who transcribed them if they were transcribed. They are not from one location, but from multiple locations within the FAA system. It is a FEDERAL CRIME to falsify these tapes or transcripts in any and every way, i.e. a FELONY.

Many of them have been used in Federal Court and the vast majority (if not all) were examined IN DETAIL by the 9/11 Commission and staff. In addition, the 9/11 Commission/Staffers interviewed most of the Controllers and other FAA personnel involved.

Now, in the OP we have a poster, not only posting false and misleading information, but IMPLYING that these tapes/transcripts are in some way questionable by referring to them as "alleged". I am not a lawyer (nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night), but I'd venture to say the implication that these tapes and/or transcripts are "alleged" is bordering on LIBELOUS accusations. There is no evidence whatsoever that any one of these tapes or transcripts are not authentic or have been manipulated in any way by anyone. They verify and crosscheck with ALL of the other information available and there is NO CONFLICT.

All there is in fact, are people who are misinformed, not aware of all the facts, paranoid of the Gobmint in general, and display PROFOUND IGNORANCE of the issues involved.

The 12 minutes I refer to is the time from the last call to AA 77 (at 9:03:06 am) and the time that it was refered they put AA 77 on "guard" (9:15:15 am). The last contact with AA 77 was at 8:50:51 am, making the amount of time about 25 minutes of non-contact before the called an issue.

reheat - your repeated attempts at discrediting me are incorrect and do not describe my education, my work experience, or my experience working for the airlines. Wrong on all counts.

Concerning ATC not knowing about the incidents of 9/11 "because they were working" is an absurd and ignorant statement - they are AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS. Stating they didn't know about air traffic crashes is simply inflammatory and pointless.

to step back from the barrage of insults and mis-directions...

there was TWELVE minutes between when air traffic controllers called to focus an airplane that was unresponsive which "took off from" a few miles from our nations capital - this is out of line given the state of national emergency. Can anyone think of an ORIGINAL non-confrontational reason for this?

Originally posted by samkent
Where is this 12 minutes you speak of?
You are trying to imply ATC was not doing their job. Or were in some sort of conspiracy.

After 9 years you still can’t come up with any correct facts to prove a conspiracy.

to re-quote my above post, the 12 minutes I mention in the OP was from the last attempt, 9:03 am, to the call of "guard" at 9:15 am.

There may be a very mundane reason for this such as the lead ATC workers were dealing with a national "attack" but it would be nice to find out what happened and why it took so long. Twelve minutes could have been the difference in whether it crashed or not (based on the idea fighters would have actually confronted the aircraft, and given the idea there actually was N644AA flying in the air that day as alleged by the FAA files, attained by a FOIA request of the NTSB)

If there was airplane wreckage and a hole in the Pentagon and damaged cement or lawn I would never have questioned it, but it's clear as day that no airplane crashed there, in my opinion, so I feel as an American I should question the information to get a clear answer. Obviously after 9 years this debate is still going quite strong - WHY? because some people made up their minds long ago and refuse to change (OSers) and some people keep searching for the real factual evidence.

reply to post by Thermo Klein

this is out of line given the state of national emergency. Can anyone think of an ORIGINAL non-confrontational reason for this?

Because there was not a state of national emergency at the time? Really, there was not a "state of national emergency" 12 minutes after the second plane crash. I know we all like to look back now and declare that we were all on the same page - terrorist attack - the second that Flight 11(?) crashed, but that really wasn't the case.

Originally posted by Reheat
There are other very prominent problems with the OP. The OP states the Air Traffic Control tapes and transcripts are from the NTSB. They are not from the NTSB, they are FAA tapes and transcripts and the only relationship between the NTSB and the FAA is that they are related to Aviation and both are Federal Agencies. In fact, the NTSB not only investigates Aircraft accidents, but they also investigate other transportation related accidents. That's why the word Transportation is in the Title of the agency. The FAA is in charge of administering the National Airspace of the US.

you throw out all this stuff to make yourself sound educated while completely mis-representing the TRUTH, all to try to discredit me... ironic since I'm the one searching for truth and you're the one trying to hide it.

The NTSB was in possession of the FAA files, which were attained by a FOIA request to the NTSB. You are simply wrong and ignorant of the facts yet so adamantly trying to make me out as the ignorant one. this may be a game for you, or a job, or just winning an argument, but to me it's about JUSTICE.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Thermo Klein

 

this is out of line given the state of national emergency. Can anyone think of an ORIGINAL non-confrontational reason for this?

Because there was not a state of national emergency at the time? Really, there was not a "state of national emergency" 12 minutes after the second plane crash. I know we all like to look back now and declare that we were all on the same page - terrorist attack - the second that Flight 11(?) crashed, but that really wasn't the case.

That's a fair point, however we're talking about air traffic controllers - they of all people would know there was at least one crash and a missing airplane. Then a second plane crash which they would have heard of nearly immediately, THEN they waited 12 minutes AFTER that. Named "national emergency" maybe not, full awareness they should report a missing airplane? definitely.

Obviously after 9 years this debate is still going quite strong

As evidenced by conspiracy websites?

The case is closed to the vast majority of Americans.

Originally posted by samkent

Obviously after 9 years this debate is still going quite strong

As evidenced by conspiracy websites?

The case is closed to the vast majority of Americans.

I think the case is ignored by the vast number of Americans. Denial and fear, and the American Dream are strong motivators.

reply to post by Thermo Klein

That's a fair point, however we're talking about air traffic controllers - they of all people would know there was at least one crash and a missing airplane. Then a second plane crash which they would have heard of nearly immediately, THEN they waited 12 minutes AFTER that. Named "national emergency" maybe not, full awareness they should report a missing airplane? definitely.

Well, from what I know of air traffic controllers, or any type of control operators, they have this tendency to focus on what's in front of them. Its kinda their job. Unless the crashes in Manhattan had some kind of direct and immeadiate effect (which it did not) then they were moot to the point of contacting AA77. They don't speculate or assume. They only work from known factors. All the ATC knew, for certain, was that they were not able to reach AA77 by radio, that was all. They don't assume it crashed, they don't assume its hijacked, they can't assume its even off course. The fact that planes crashed into buildings in Manhattan was totally irrelevant. Their tasked remained exactly the same, keep the planes that were in the air from hitting each other. The plane crashing into a building does not effect that task.

reply to post by hooper


could be... but maybe not. I personally feel it's a reasonably minor point that should be investigated.

I used to work for American Airlines reservations. I happened to be working the day AA 965 crashed in Cali, Columbia (1995). We knew INSTANTLY, even with 600+ employees on the call center floor, our leads knew immediately. We were flashed a message of how to handle crash-related calls and who to direct the calls to. As typical protocol in the Ops center they have at least 4-5 dedicated TVs with news on them all day all night.

My experience at American doesn't prove anything but I can't even imagine people at an airport or ATC ops center didn't know about the crashes and be on higher alert for something else out of the ordinary - like a plane not responding to repeated calls.

Originally posted by samkent

Obviously after 9 years this debate is still going quite strong

As evidenced by conspiracy websites?

The case is closed to the vast majority of Americans.

Haahaa you ppl dont half make me chuckle. Can you speak for a vast majority of americans? No you cant if the case is closed in your opinion why the hell do you os ppl insist on posting on thi forum then? Makes zero sense

reply to post by Thermo Klein


What was ATC suppose to do? They keep trying to contact.

There is no death ray to shoot down pilots who don't talk! I guess if ATC was mad they could make them hold.

Everyday there are planes who miss calls from ATC, they don't launch F-15s to shoot you down!

What does ATC do when a plane does not talk? They don't assume it is hijacked, and the controllers did not know the USA was under attack - the controller knows 77 did not report back. Non issue, but some with no knowledge of ATC procedures will take this and make up fictional claims and crazy stories.

Read this www.faa.gov...
Then find an ATC manual or expert to help you out.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
The 12 minutes I refer to is the time from the last call to AA 77 (at 9:03:06 am) and the time that it was refered they put AA 77 on "guard" (9:15:15 am). The last contact with AA 77 was at 8:50:51 am, making the amount of time about 25 minutes of non-contact before the called an issue.

I think you've misunderstood what "on guard" means. When the "Guard" frequency is used, every single aircraft in the given area will hear it, regardless of what radio frequency they are tuned to. For obvious reasons it's not used very often, and then only as a last ditch effort to try and contact an aircraft that is not responding on their assigned frequency.

FAA and American Airlines knew from around 8.56 AM that there was an issue with AA77, but it was not yet confirmed as a hijack.

Originally posted by kaya82

Originally posted by samkent

Obviously after 9 years this debate is still going quite strong

As evidenced by conspiracy websites?

The case is closed to the vast majority of Americans.

Haahaa you ppl dont half make me chuckle. Can you speak for a vast majority of americans? No you cant if the case is closed in your opinion why the hell do you os ppl insist on posting on thi forum then? Makes zero sense

For the same reason people gather around a jumper. We are all just waiting for the splat.

In the past nine years there have been a lot of splats on the 911 topic.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
reheat - your repeated attempts at discrediting me are incorrect and do not describe my education, my work experience, or my experience working for the airlines. Wrong on all counts.

Au Contrare, I don't really need to do much. You are doing it to yourself. I note you didn't answer ANY of my questions. Why? Do you have something to hide?

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Concerning ATC not knowing about the incidents of 9/11 "because they were working" is an absurd and ignorant statement - they are AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS. Stating they didn't know about air traffic crashes is simply inflammatory and pointless.

The only ignorance being display is your incredulity based on ignorance.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
to step back from the barrage of insults and mis-directions...

The only "mis-directions" that have been posted were BY YOU that I've outlined above. Everything I've said is quite accurate.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
there was TWELVE minutes between when air traffic controllers called to focus an airplane that was unresponsive which "took off from" a few miles from our nations capital - this is out of line given the state of national emergency. Can anyone think of an ORIGINAL non-confrontational reason for this?

You HAVE NOT established there was a state of national emergency and you don't have a clue whether or not Indianapolis Center knew of the events in NYC. Since you think 12 minutes is too long, please tell us how long it should take and base your reasons on FACTS not your unqualified opinion.

BTW, The inflammatory rhetoric originated in the OP with the use of the words "allege" and "alleged" which are implications of a FELONY.accompanied by NO EVIDENCE.