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NTSB records: ATC waits 12 minutes to report AA 77 non-contact

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posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by Thermo Klein

Originally posted by Ivar_Karlsen
Once they didn't respond ATC would assume that they had lost comm, and expect them to continue to destination.


I assume that's right, that on a normal day that would be true. Although I don't know the ATC protocols; this thread is about speculation that given the incidents which already occured, that ATC centers WOULD have known abiut. the 12-minutes would not have happened.



edit on 10-3-2011 by Thermo Klein because: (no reason given)


Do you see that word in BOLD above? You need to look at it again and also go back and post or two and read the sentence I suggested you read again and again in which you referred to common sense.




posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by Thermo Klein
 


Very, very different reasons:


As a lowly reservations agent I knew about a crash within a minute...


Surprised you don't understand the difference. You are, of course referring to AAL 587? (Or, was it Cali??)

Either way, as a Res Agent....you WILL be likely to need to field calls from the public, almost instantly, when there is a crash. I mean, who ELSE do they call? Every airline (worth their salt) has a procedure in place for those tragic contingencies.

BUT....who is going to call up their local ARTCC and inquire about American Airlines flight 11 ???

See the point, here?


Ya know....I dealt with a LOT of other employees at the company, many of whom were very senior....and they knew their little world and their job....(Res, Customer Service, Maintenance, Inflight etc) but, even after decades of employment, didn't make them knowledgeable about ALL aspects of the business.....especially the very technical details of flying.....



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
Ya know....I dealt with a LOT of other employees at the company, many of whom were very senior....and they knew their little world and their job....(Res, Customer Service, Maintenance, Inflight etc) but, even after decades of employment, didn't make them knowledgeable about ALL aspects of the business.....especially the very technical details of flying.....


so?

this thread is about what someone would do given the fact something out of the ordinary is going on, and would they wait 12 minutes to let someone know.

(by the way, since you can't figure out that 9:03 to 9:15 is 12 minutes, how many minutes do you think it was?)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

Originally posted by Ivar_Karlsen
Once they didn't respond ATC would assume that they had lost comm, and expect them to continue to destination.


I assume that's right, that on a normal day that would be true. Although I don't know the ATC protocols; this thread is about speculation that given the incidents which already occured, that ATC centers WOULD have known abiut. the 12-minutes would not have happened.



edit on 10-3-2011 by Thermo Klein because: (no reason given)


Do you see that word in BOLD above? You need to look at it again and also go back and post or two and read the sentence I suggested you read again and again in which you referred to common sense.



Speculation and common sense are something you should not be afraid of, reheat... again, I'm not trying to win an argument here, I'm trying to get to an eventual truth. If you could use some variability, speculation, common sense you might find yourself questioning things instead of ceasingly arguing the same bored old statements.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Thermo Klein
 


Very, very different reasons:


As a lowly reservations agent I knew about a crash within a minute...


Surprised you don't understand the difference. You are, of course referring to AAL 587? (Or, was it Cali??)



Here's what I posted on page 1

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
I used to work for American Airlines reservations. I happened to be working the day AA 965 crashed in Cali, Columbia (1995). We knew INSTANTLY, even with 600+ employees on the call center floor, our leads knew immediately. We were flashed a message of how to handle crash-related calls and who to direct the calls to. As typical protocol in the Ops center they have at least 4-5 dedicated TVs with news on them all day all night.

My experience at American doesn't prove anything but I can't even imagine people at an airport or ATC ops center didn't know about the crashes and be on higher alert for something else out of the ordinary - like a plane not responding to repeated calls.

(emphasis added)


there you go weed. This constant absurd behavior you guys have, rehashing and twisting everything to attempt character assassination... don't you get tired of it? It just wastes our time, yours and mine.


Originally posted by weedwhacker
Surprised you don't understand the difference.


not surprised you wasted yet ANOTHER post on lies and deceit.


edit on 10-3-2011 by Thermo Klein because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:50 PM
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u lot love a bit of disinformation do u think if this was true i wouldent be news this is specifficly for u lot to ponder over hope u lot see the light SOON



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by EDL2011
u lot love a bit of disinformation do u think if this was true i wouldent be news this is specifficly for u lot to ponder over hope u lot see the light SOON


well since it took more than 5 years and a Freedom Of Information Act request to force these people to give up the Flight data Recorder, as well as getting templates to read the data, I assume most people don't give a crap... luckily a few people still care enough to invest time into researching the actual facts of the "case".



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by Thermo Klein
 


Look, I'm really tired of dealing with you here and I suspect the other two Airline Transport Rated pilots are as well. What we have here are three Airline Transport Rated pilots who know and understand the Air Traffic Control System attempting to convince a former Airline Reservation Agent how stupid the accusations made in this thread really are. There is no substance to anything you've posted here.

To put it quite bluntly, you are being very....dense. The common sense you think you have does not exist. You're still not getting it and won't even if it goes 100 more pages until you get the answer you're really looking for, which is not necessarily the truth, but it may be one which reinforces your obvious delusions.

There was no conspiracy except among a group of Islamic radicals who conspired to hijack 4 aircraft and smash 3 of them into buildings. That includes AA 77 which crashed into the Pentagon killing all souls on board and some 125 military service members or DOD civilian employees inside the building.

I've just saved you years of wasting you're life by summarizing the truth in one paragraph.

Good Bye.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by Reheat
 


I bet you're tired, you spent 3 pages calling me names and skirting the question!


good riddance, I'd love to be on your ignore list!

group of Muslims, eh? good luck with that static, factless TV story.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 07:36 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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if you guys wanna blow sunshine up each other's *** that's fine but maybe keep it to private messaging?

The topic is about what Air Traffic Controllers did after a known disaster happened and WHY they waited 12 minutes to call attention to it. It's a valid question that any good manager would question.

You guys can't even seem to agree it's 12 minutes even though it's been shown several times - if you don't want to look into the possible truths, and only rely on your already concretized belief system, why do you bother coming here?

Weedwhacker, by the way, I appreciate you discussing the question of the 12 minutes and your opinion on it(although you said it wasn't 12 minutes for some reason). We disagree on the outcome but it was nice having a grown-up conversation about the thread topic.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:12 PM
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For the same reason people gather around a jumper. We are all just waiting for the splat. In the past nine years there have been a lot of splats on the 911 topic.


Sitting around and waiting for splats for the past 9 years; looks like you lead a real interesting life there.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by Thermo Klein
 


I was going to comment on the "12 minutes" to illuminate some context. I have a transcript on my hard-drive...can't copy/paste from it, sent it a doc program, but then it turned into a .BMP image, can't put that into ATS Media...Aaaack! Top it off, had a nosh, now have a band-aid on my finger...anyway, first things first:


The topic is about what Air Traffic Controllers did after a known disaster happened and WHY they waited 12 minutes to call attention to it.


Whoa!! Rein in that stage coach. There was no "known" disaster at the time we are discussing. American 11 had hit only about 15 minutes (or so) earlier, right?? (I don't have the timeline right in front of me, can clear it up in due course). @ 09:03 was the UAL 175 hit....and THAT verified it (AAL 11) was no "accident".

BUT.....simultaneously, hundreds of miles away, some air traffic controllers did NOT have access to television news reports...they were in a dim, dark windowless room, with radar screens and other equipment casting glows on their faces.

SO....a "dawning realization" of American 77?? No....it wasn't instantaneous....took a long time for the significance to sink in. AND, before that even happened (before they had ANY idea, or inkling of a possible hijacking) it was a common, every-day communications breakdown....from their point-of-view!



Weedwhacker, by the way.... your opinion on it(although you said it wasn't 12 minutes for some reason...


I am getting the actual printed transcripts, and we can then look at them, and leave speculation at the door.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.ntsb.gov...

@1250:51 (all times GMT/UTC) AAL 77 acknowledged "Direct Falmouth" (The FLM VOR).

There were no radio calls to/from AAL 77 until Indy Center called @ 1256:32. (BTW...very common to go for many minutes, without being bugged by ATC....). Reason for Indy's call? Look here: www.ntsb.gov...

Go to page #3:


A few minutes after the hijackers took control of the cockpit (at approximately 08:52), the
horizontal mode was changed to a heading select and the airplane began a 180-degree turn
back towards Washington.


So...about four minutes passed before the clear indications of the course deviation were seen (and noticed). When you understand the real way the radar works, especially high altitude en-route, it DOES take a few minutes for gross deviations from course to show up....plus, it was totally unexpected, so there would be a delay, if the controller wasn't staring at the screen non-stop (they don't, unless VERY busy).

So, here I must 'speculate', but I have a pretty strong feeling I'm right....the controller calls @ 1256:32 specifically to ask AAL 77 about what he sees...the course change. His words, and it is normal ATC protocol language: "American 77, Indy."

Whenever we communicate on radio, it is the station being called that is mentioned first....the "this is" is usually not stated, but you may insert it...it is tacitly understood. (When you hear such BAD radio dialogue, such as "this is" all the time, in bad Hollywood movies?? You know they have no idea of reality, and how it really sounds).

Naturally, no answer from the hijackers.

He tries five more times, over about the next two minutes. Again, as I read it, it is in the manner that is normal, as these things happen...he is just thinking they aren't hearing, are distracted, or whatever....he says "radio check", and also says "American 77 American"....(repeating the call-sign name, to emphasize...again, just how its done).

Now, by this time, his colleague, probably seated right next to him, gives it a try. I am thinking the first guy asks the second one to tune to that frequency....the second guy is working a different sector, at the moment. HE calls @ 1258:20. They both continue to call for several more minutes.

AGAIN...neither one of them have ANY idea of what just happened out in New York!!!

Now....@1303:06, on the transcript I have, is the last attempt. And a note, that they got ahold of a company flight, AAL 683 that was in the vicinity, and had THEM try, at 1315:15. (**)

In that apparent "gap"? All hell was probably breaking loose...more and more people were taking notice, and I wager that the balls were set rolling, in that time period. In addition, of course, concern about its obvious new ground track.

So, no.....the sequence of events is perfectly reasonable, is not any "smoking gun" or anything like that. The real world reactions, back then (might be a bit faster today!) were perfectly normal......


(**) For some reason some at ATC think we all chat with each other on the "company frequency", or something....we don't. It would be heard whenever you were in range of any of your normal stations, and interrupt THEIR normal business....an any case, back then the radio #2 (or 'right', depending on the nomenclature used) was usally not listend to at all....before ACARS, and automated ATIS it was used more...but, then (and now) when you have a printer and the latest ACARS software, you get ATIS, and other weather info, just like sending text messages, and getting them in return, and then printing it up to read later.










edit on 10 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by Thermo KleinThe topic is about what Air Traffic Controllers did after a known disaster happened and WHY they waited 12 minutes to call attention to it. It's a valid question that any good manager would question.


Again, making assumptions that you cannot substantiate.

I have no problem discussing the '12 minute window', if you can show that the ATC's knew that the second plane had hit the WTC...and still decided to not throw up any red flags.

Hell, the FAA didn't even halt flight operations until 9:40.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:18 PM
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Don't feel like reading the whole thread to get this one answered, but has anyone pointed out that these are FAA records and not NTSB records? Just asking.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by 911files
Don't feel like reading the whole thread to get this one answered, but has anyone pointed out that these are FAA records and not NTSB records? Just asking.


Yes, First page. Don't fret because the original poster is smarter and has more common sense than 3 Airline Transport Rated pilots with a combined experience of over 90+ years within the Air Traffic Control system in the US. The thread was DOA and demolished on the first page, but you know how it is.....



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:43 PM
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for the record this is called investigation, it is not making definitive remarks, unsubstantiated assumptions... it's a look into what might be (yet another difference between people who search for truth over fighting for what they already believe).

8:50:51 am - Last contact FROM AA 77

8: 52 am - AA 77 makes a 180 degree unplanned turn with no ATC contact

for next TWENTY-THREE MINUTES ATC agents try to contact AA 77 or simply do nothing (that's 8:52 to 9:15 am)
(before everyone goes crazy, the 12 minutes previously discussed was from last attempt by ATC to the guard frequency try by other AA flight)

9:15 am (FINALLY) - ATC asks another AA flight to check guard frequency (or however you're technically supposed to say that.)

If you guys say this is normal, fine.
I say, for an aircraft that makes an unscheduled u-turn and is out of radio contact, I wouldn't sit around on my butt for more than twenty minutes before I took action.

Can't really say much else - most people in this thread are far more interested in discrediting me personally than actually wondering if 20 minutes no-contact is out of line...



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by 911files
Don't feel like reading the whole thread to get this one answered, but has anyone pointed out that these are FAA records and not NTSB records? Just asking.


Yes, First page. Don't fret because the original poster is smarter and has more common sense than 3 Airline Transport Rated pilots with a combined experience of over 90+ years within the Air Traffic Control system in the US. The thread was DOA and demolished on the first page, but you know how it is.....


I mentioned the files were in NTSB possession, originally from the FAA and part of the FOIA request #DCA01MA064. reheat, you are so childish! If this is NOT the case, please say something, if it IS the case why make it out so sarcastically and mention three pilots with 90+ years experience. what are you, 14?

Straight answer - was the FAA information part of the NTSB FOIA request or not?

for the record the links we've all been discussing all thread long about the times are from the NTSB.


edit on 10-3-2011 by Thermo Klein because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by Thermo Klein
 



You are forgetting, though, an important fact. The transponder. IN FACT! I goofed, in my post above....because I forgot too. It is quite possible I was wrong (Gasp!!) (**) about the reason for the call, at 1256 or so....from Indy. Instead of the turn he saw....it was the TRANSPONDER target that was missing!!!

And, THAT is why ATC called....to query about the XPNDR. Also very normal, they DO fail sometimes. And, when that happens, ATC will call you, just to get the conversation started...when you respond, then they tell you what's on their mind, reason for the call.

For all we know (and cannot get into the heads of the controllers) it could be the LAST thoughts they had was of a hijacking....in the initial confusion.

The might have puzzled, thinking a total electrical failure (although we still have the one radio, and transponder, etc, even on StandBy Power)....but not all controllers would know every detail of the airplane's systems. They aren't airline pilots, after all.

POINT, still is.....as far as the people working the Indianapolis Center (ARTCC) knew, it was a "routine" problem with AAL 77....they had NO WAY to connect that occurrence to the events in New York....even if any of them had even seen the news, yet!!!





(**) Time to debut my new photo???:








 
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