New findings in Azores, new evidence of Atlantis?

Originally posted by Versa
I'm not saying that the stories had to originate from Sumer but that they were passed on to the Egyptians from Sumer

As far as I know, Egyptian myths don't really match up well with those of Mesopotamia.

For example, there is no Egyptian flood myth. There is an "unflood" myth, if you will, the Egyptian creation myth involves land rising out the ocean.

Mesopotamian myths are no doubt the source of most of the Old Testament mythology. Moses aside, there are parallels in Mesopotamia for practically every major tale in the O.T., and some of these parallels are almost exact, word for word versions of the same stories.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

For example, there is no Egyptian flood myth. There is an "unflood" myth, if you will, the Egyptian creation myth involves land rising out the ocean.

Harte

the "great flood" took place in neserser [ie. the lake of fire wherein was the island of fire]. "the book of going forth by day" faulkner et al. chapter about the spirit and the great gate in the sky as i recall. think there might be more mentions too.

the shebtiw put back what had been before the flood. eae raymond and jelinkova say that.

Originally posted by Harte
There is an "unflood" myth, if you will, the Egyptian creation myth involves land rising out the ocean.

Don't the biblical and Sumerian creation myths also start with 'watery deeps' and then land forming? Anyway as I said I don't know much about it so no point me trying to make a point that I know nothing about, Id just end up confused and look a bit of a fool

Originally posted by Parta

Originally posted by Harte
For example, there is no Egyptian flood myth. There is an "unflood" myth, if you will, the Egyptian creation myth involves land rising out the ocean.

Harte

the "great flood" took place in neserser [ie. the lake of fire wherein was the island of fire]. "the book of going forth by day" faulkner et al. chapter about the spirit and the great gate in the sky as i recall. think there might be more mentions too.

the shebtiw put back what had been before the flood. eae raymond and jelinkova say that.

That's in the underworld. Do you suppose it is related to a myth involving the flooding of the surface world?

I don't have Faulkner's version of the Book of the Dead, but Jelinkova is online:
Here

Originally posted by Versa
Don't the biblical and Sumerian creation myths also start with 'watery deeps' and then land forming? Anyway as I said I don't know much about it so no point me trying to make a point that I know nothing about, Id just end up confused and look a bit of a fool

No you won't.

Yes, seemingly many myths of creation start with water. The Enuma Elish doesn't come out and say this (not any version I've read, anyway) but the first thing in it is the god Apsu - he's the god of fresh water, and his wife Tiamat, the goddess of the sea.

The story is understood as a myth of the cycle of the seasons though, and not really an attempt to explain the actual creation like Genesis is.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
No you won't.

lol yes.... I will, I am very very skilled in that area

Yes, seemingly many myths of creation start with water. The Enuma Elish doesn't come out and say this (not any version I've read, anyway) but the first thing in it is the god Apsu - he's the god of fresh water, and his wife Tiamat, the goddess of the sea.

The story is understood as a myth of the cycle of the seasons though, and not really an attempt to explain the actual creation like Genesis is.

Harte

As the Genesis version is obviously a much later rehash of older myths I always thought that the writer/s of Genesis had 'modernised' old myths and in doing so had portrayed them as real events in much the same way that the Jesus story was taken from other earlier myths and turned into a sudo historical story for a new audience.

I always thought that the tale of Jonah was probably a retelling of the dying and reborn sun god myths too.

I was always of the opinion that many of the myths, legends and religious stories probably started off somewhat different to the tales we have now but possibly all had a similar root story (one that we probably will never be able to recreate) and flood myths fall into that general category.

reply to post by Harte


going forth by day

chapter 174 right column, 4th paragraph


“The general tone of the beginning of the first record seems to convey the view that an ancient world, after having been constituted, was destroyed, and as a dead world it came to be the basis of a new period of creation…life developed within the island” Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple by E.A.E. Reymond.

page 45 in jelinkova paragraph [j]

Originally posted by DemonSpeedN
reply to post by Schmidt1989

 

You never know who your really talking to on the internet. Well I may not be someone with a degree that says I'm an archaeologist but believe me that's the only difference between me and a "Real" archaeologist.

Hahaha alright.

Done with this thread.

Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Harte

 

going forth by day

chapter 174 right column, 4th paragraph


“The general tone of the beginning of the first record seems to convey the view that an ancient world, after having been constituted, was destroyed, and as a dead world it came to be the basis of a new period of creation…life developed within the island” Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple by E.A.E. Reymond.

page 45 in jelinkova paragraph [j]

Thanks for the link.

Is this the only mention of this flood?

I get why they're saying it "appears" to be an inference of a former world that was destroyed, which provided a pre-existing foundation for the benben to rise from.

This stuff is part of a spell in the book of the dead, though. Doesn't that mean it's really wide-open as far as actual interpretation goes?

Shouldn't this idea appear somewhere else, in some other telling of myth in some other context? That is, Horus as a lotus blossom (mentioned in the paragraph you indicated) appears elsewhere. Why not this flood?

EDIT: Thanks again. Finally, I'm impressed! LOL

Harte

Originally posted by Versa
As the Genesis version is obviously a much later rehash of older myths I always thought that the writer/s of Genesis had 'modernised' old myths and in doing so had portrayed them as real events in much the same way that the Jesus story was taken from other earlier myths and turned into a sudo historical story for a new audience.

You're probably right. But Genesis is a collection of several different myths. Some can easily be traced to an earlier origin.

I haven't seen any such tracing of the actual creation myth, except the creation of humans (that's in the Enuma Elish.)

The Cain and Able story is an allegory of the changeover from a nomadic hunter-gatherer existence to that of an agricultural society.

The flood myth comes straight out of Sumer.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


there are piles of references to neserser in almost evry text. you have the references like

These are they who are in the Land of Serser; ‘they have received their bread, and they have gained the mastery over this Lake, and they praise this great god. Ra saith unto them:–’Eat ye your green herbs, and satisfy ye yourselves with your cakes; let there be fulness to your bellies, and satisfaction to your hearts. Your green herbs are of the Lake of Serser, the Lake which may not be approached. Praise ye me, glorify ye me, for I am the Great One of terror of the Tuat.’ They say unto Ra:–’Hail to thee, O thou Great One of the SEKHEMU (i.e., Powers)! Praise is thine, and majesty is thine. The Tuat is thine, and [is subservient] to thy will; it is a hidden place [made] by thee for those who are in its Circles. The height of Heaven is thine, and [is subservient] to thy will; it is a secret place [made] by thee for those who belong thereto. The Earth is for thy dead Body, and the Sky is for thy Soul. O Ra, be thou at peace (or, be content) with that which thou hast made to come into being.’ Their food consisteth of bread-cakes, their green herbs are the plants of the spring, and the waters wherein they refresh themselves are cool

and

These are they who make souls to have a right to the green herbs in the Lake of Serser. Ra saith unto them:–’[Hail, ye] divine sovereign princes of the gods, and ye chiefs of the Lake of Serser, who place souls over their green herbs, let them have dominion themselves over their bread; give ye your bread which is appointed, and bring ye your green herbs to the souls who have been ordered to exist in the Lake of Serser.’ They say unto Ra:–’The bread appointed hath been and the green herbs have been brought to the divine souls whom thou hast ordered to exist in the Lake of Serser. Hail! Verily, the way is fair; for KHENTI-AMENTI praiseth thee, and those who dwell in TA-THENEN praise thee.’ Their food is of bread-cakes, and their beer is the tchesert beer, and their libations are of cool water; and offerings are made unto them upon earth by those who are with TUI by the divine sovereign princes.

is this conquest of the lake pre or post flood. i assume post flood but you never know.

Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Harte

 

there are piles of references to neserser in almost evry text.

Yes, for Neserser.

But what about the flood that was mentioned? Does anything else reference that?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


traveling to the enclosure due to water...

Hail to thee, O thou Thigh which dwelleth in the northern heaven in the Great Lake, which art seen and which dieth not. I have stood up over thee when thou didst rise like a god. I have seen thee, and I have not lain down in death; I have stood over thee, and I have risen like a god. I have cackled like a goose, and I have alighted like a hawk by the divine clouds and by the great dew. I have journeyed from the earth to heaven. The god Shu–made–me to stand up, the god of Light hath made me to be vigorous by the two sides of the ladder, and the stars which never rest set–me–on–my–way and bring–me–away from slaughter. I bring along with me the things which drive back calamities as I advance over the passage of the god Pen; thou comest, how great art thou, O god Pen! I have come from the Pool of Flame which is in the Sekhet-Sasa–Thou livest in the Pool of Flame in Sekhet-Sasa, and I live upon the staff of the hold–god. Hail, thou god Kaa, who dost bring those things which are in the boats by the . . . I stand up in the boat and I guide myself–over–the water: I have stood up in the boat and the god hath guided me. I have stood up. I have spoken.–I am master of the–crops. I sail round about as I go forward, and the gates which are in Sekhem–Letopolis–are opened unto me, and fields are awarded unto me in the city of Unni–Hermopolis–, and laborers are given unto me together with those of my own flesh and bone.

so with the 4 references thats flood. escaping flood and rebuilding after flood. or... its conquering lake, escaping flood and rebuilding. either way there is a flood and thats not mentioning the wiping out of mankind by re and his daughter of fire and flood.

i guess what is on the ground would prove which scenerio is most accurate.

Originally posted by Essan
Anyway, back on topic (not that anyone seems interested in the OP

) - it would be interesting to know how many of these supposed funerary ruins have been found. Assuming they all date to around the same time it might in fact be evidence that ......... a ship from the Eastern Med got lost and the sailors were shipwrecked on the Azores. Nothing more. Especially given that until know there has been no other evidence of human occupation of the Azores dating back to that time frame.

Its likely that if the ruins are around 2000 years old, then they are most likely of iberian gallic (spanish/portugese) construction. And at that time the iberians were efectivley Roman in culture. The iberians were also acomplished sailors and would have known of the atlantic islands from their very long history of blue water fishing.
The iberians were catching cod and tuna in the open ocean as long as 7000 years ago . So its not a stretch to that they had found the azores by then.

reply to post by Harte


I need more books, lots more books!
I need more bookshelves, lots more bookshelves!
I need a bigger house and more time to read and a bigger brain to absorb it all.

I 'need' a lot of things now that I only 'wanted' yesterday

could you u2u me some decent books on the subject?

Originally posted by Versa
reply to post by Harte

 

I need more books, lots more books!
I need more bookshelves, lots more bookshelves!
I need a bigger house and more time to read and a bigger brain to absorb it all.

I 'need' a lot of things now that I only 'wanted' yesterday

could you u2u me some decent books on the subject?

I don't really know of any. I mean, what I've read about the Genesis myths has been online in various places. I mean, other than reading Genesis itself.

I've read a lot on google books, but I couldn't tell you the names.

You probably should read what is known about the Ugaritic texts - wiki will start you off:
en.wikipedia.org...

Yahweh was just one of the many gods back then.

Use terms from that wiki page to search with on Google to find out more about it. The Ugaritic religion is sort of like a link between the Jewish belief and Sumerian (Akkadian) and Egyptian. Could be just what you're looking for.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


thats great! Thanks for the shove in the right direction

Just wondering if anyone has heard any updates to the original post? This is news to me(and I'm Portuguese lol) and i'd like to get some further & newer information on this but can't find anything when searching other than the same copy for copy press release on other sites. Please!

Hello ATS. This is my first post. Great to be here!
I've been working on a metafictional tale involving ancient burial on the Azores!
I'm thrilled to finally get a break in the case and I intend on contacting the Portuguese Association of Archaeological Research (APIA) and Nuno Ribeiro this weekend to see if I can get any more info.
My story involves a dream I had that was partly about a very strange burial on an island that I now know to be the Azores. The story has grown considerably and with much synchronicity to involve alchemy, sidereal astrology, interspecial communication... the lot.

Here's a link to the stuff that involves the Azores directly:
alterman47.wordpress.com...

But if you're interested in the whole story and how the Azores fits into it then you should start here:
alterman47.wordpress.com...

Thank you and I look forward to sharing more in the future.

Welcome Jack!!

reply to post by Falkner


I've read some of the comments and you guys are really funny. A perfect good topic and some of you just fire it up like a flying saucer with destination earth.

this is the update to the topic (in the only english version i've found)

portuguese-american-journal.com...

or a decent article in portuguese

www.obaluarte.net... t9

the only conclusion I could make of all of this, as an azorian that lives in azores and have seen some of the hypogea that were found, is that there is no conclusion without more research. Off course the coins are a good evidence (if they are not a hoax!!! or a missplaced artifact, like stollen coins later found and someone made a wrong conclusion; by the way azores were allways a hot spot for pirates, expecially the tiny island of corvo were most of the finding occur), the holes aparently carved on the surface of the vulcanic rock sounds compelling but not a definitive proof that they area actually hypogea's, and that's about it. i'm not even going to comment the supposedly Sunni inscriptions that they have found; that would be a tremendus hole on the atlantic hypoteesi (only based on the findings, of coure).

in sum, could this be any proof of the atlantis in azores? well, that would be great for turism!!!! but let's not take wild guesses and jump to unlikelly conclusions. I would just invite all of you to come and see for your self this beautifull islands, rated 2nd best islands in the World by the national geographic and many times by the travell magazine. And that way you could conduct your whon investigations and apreciate the landscapes.

regards,

lia