Challenge to Christians: Prove the Bible is True

reply to post by KJV1611


Anyone who's read Michael Behe, or "Icons of Evolution" knows that.

reply to post by KJV1611


I have come to the conclusion that madness is in fact a troll. I would say ignore him too, however it's quite fun and challenging proving his 'hard facts' wrong.
He has shown his incredibility on the thread he has just run away from called "Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?"
I don't get why a person would spend all there time on a religious forum, when they are so against religion. He is the anti christ, he is trying to kill god.
In fact i don't know why the mods allow him to continue.
I have read:
ALL MEMBERS READ - Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic
PLEASE PLAY NICE (STAFF ALERT)
I have my doubts to whether maddness has read them.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


in that case Sir/madam We are all the anti-christ...Anyone who dosnt believe in god...because we dont agree with a god.......the end.

reply to post by Solsthime331


You can speak for yourself.
This is your conclusion.
Maddness is against God, I am not.

reply to post by christina-66


I too would love to see this, good post Christina-66. I live in the "Bible Belt" and Christians here will tell you that Jesus/God wrote the Bible, that is have never been changed since the original translation, that Earth and History is only 6000 years old, and that the Sumerians and other Ancient civilizations never existed, but were made up by Satan. Also, they tell me that anyone not a Christian is a Devil worshiper, and is going straight to Hell everlasting. They do not, however, subscribe to the ones who say Jesus is coming back here on May 21 of this year. Many of them tell me that they see, and speak to Jesus nearly every day, and he tells them what to do. I would love to know who they are really talking to.

reply to post by christina-66


Christina-66, before I begin to answer your challenge, I have to make my own challenge to several of the “facts” you present.

First: “All Christians will be aware of the Creed of Nicaea (or they should be) and the input of dear old Emperor Constantine re the decision that Jesus should be deemed a deity at a time when the Roman Empire was in decline”

What is your source for claiming that Jesus was not deemed as Divine until the council of Nicea? It sounds like something you read from a Dan Brown novel. When, in fact, the Bible itself declares Christ as Divine, take for example the Gospel of John (written circa 96 A.D. – roughly 200 years BEFORE Constantine) declares Jesus Christ as eternal and Divine (see John 1:1-17). So, just curious, what is your source of information?

Second: “All Christians will be aware of the Gnostic teaching (or they should be) that are as old as the NT texts,”

Once again, I must ask, what is your source for information on this? By and large historians and Bible Scholars alike (take Craig A. Evans and Emmanuel Tov, for example) date the New Testament documents as being written between 48 – 96 A.D., whereas the earliest Gnostic gospel (The Gospel of Thomas – not actually written by Thomas, BTW) is dated sometime between 140 – 180 AD, over 40 years AFTER the New Testament Apostles had all died. So, once again – what is your source of information?

Third: “All Christians will be aware of the fact that Christendom (Europe) was eventually forced to take on board these teachings and that they were not some sudden realization of ‘truth’ but enforced dogma.”

And once again, your source of information is……??????

Anyone can merely make assertions and affirmations as you do, but if you have no support for them then I don’t see any need to answer you – you’re just blowing wind. Name your sources of information on these 3 points, and I will answer your challenge.

reply to post by christina-66


How about a bible prophecy in the middle of being fulfilled. The prophecy is this. According to the book of Hosea it was prophesied that the nation of Israel would be destroyed and restored in 2000 years. And today there is a nation of Israel existing again in the middle east. It would appear the prophecy is right on schedule. Though by my best guess the curse involved in the prophecy has approximately 19 years to run.

The verses in question.

Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 5
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
10 The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6 The timeframe of the curse and 2nd Peter 3-8 which explains the 3 days.

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A 2000 year curse followed by a 1000 year day of Jezreel.

Something to think about eh?

reply to post by christina-66


It would be very hard to prove anything to you as you have read at least one work of a Tubingen nature and you are baiting.

First, the Paul schism is one of their favourites and not proven at all.

Gnosticism was a multi-faceted issue that still continues in many ways. It was very troublesome for early Christianity.

A lot of Jews rejected the idea of Jesus as Messiah--but not them all. However, a lot of the Christian Jewish population was later killed by Shimon Bar Kochba because they would not recognise him as Messiah and fight with him in the rebellion against Rome. Later, Rabis also rejected him as Messiah, and renamed him son of lies.

The Babylonion theory you discuss is just a hypothesis--first developed in Tubingen, Germany, and has always struck me as anti-semetic in nature. You must prove this.

Why would the Hebrews be the only ones not to have a tradition and culture of religion and creation myths? Then, they suddenly get one in Babylon.

Why didn't Hebrews become Christians in Germany? Or Believe in Woten?

Furthermore, you forget that Hebrews had been travelling to Spain since about King Solomon's time. They took their Torah religion with them. THis was hundreds of years before they were taken to Bablylon.

Interestingly, there are still Jews in Iraq--although lots of them have fled to Jordan (I lived there and met lots). They are still Jews, not Zoarastrians or Muslims.

When you ask to prove it is the word of God, I think you need to define further what it is you are asking.

Also, you are not interested in that...you merely want to try and make fun. I guess you have come across some arguments and believe you can counter them and prove how clever you are.

Essentially you are asking for Christians to help you extend your narcissistic gaze into the pool of your own ingenuity.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Those are really weak.

reply to post by christina-66


"The oldest gospel is Mark - written about 70ad." Again this is supposition. Based on the idea that something shorter must come first.

Matthew's Gospel is supposed to the oldest, or at least a Hebrew version of it. Probably a longer version. It seems the early Church and writers borrowed from it--including Mark.

John claimed to write a personal and theological account, which was to be more comprehensive, than the others and later. He claimed to be an eye-witness.

Incidently, I agree with you about hypnotism, or at least that Jesus miracles were about activating a healing ability within people.

reply to post by mikeybiznaz


Hatemail??

Is your post not hatemail?

reply to post by christina-66


To be fair, there is not much historical evidence for the existence of most of humanity until fairly modern times. Why would a carpenter have records? If he did, where would they be?

Jerusalem was destroyed twice. The country renamed Palestine etc.

When I was in Jordan, I was talking to some Palestinians who were originally from Jerusalem. All records of their family were lost/wiped out. They do not 'exist' before 1948.

In the Highlands, all traces of descent were lost after the Battle of Culloden and the destruction of the Clans. All we have left are some half-geneologies of the clan chiefs. Until modern times, there is no proof of thousands of years of ancestors. Did they exist?

Let's use a bit of common sense.

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
reply to post by ACTS 2:38

 

The bible does mention the sun moving around us....but not in that verse

Psalm 93:1
"(...) the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."


1 Chronicles 16:30
"(...) the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."



Ecclesiastes
1:5,
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his
place where he arose."

Clearly....if we cant move...then everything moves around us

EDIT: Theres estimates for the total water on the planet....something like 325 million trillion gallons.
Have you ever seen a modern day container ship in high seas??? The whole thing buckles and bends many many feet....but its made of steel...not wood which would break apart under the HUGE forces being exerted on it. Thats why we dont build wooden container ships

Noahs ark is rubbish....its impossible to fit 2 of every animal on even our largest ships today.

edit on 20-2-2011 by loves a conspiricy because: (no reason given)

Those books you quote from are poetry books.

In anycase, sounds like a bit of Relativity--we are static and all else moves.!!! Those Jews and their crazy ideas!

Also the word used is Eretz. Which could mean the planet, ground or the nation of Israel, as they still refer to it as Ha Eretz--the land.

reply to post by SavedOne


For a debate my friend - with people - not with textbooks.

reply to post by kinglizard


I'm open to persuasion. That's one of the points of this thread.

reply to post by debunker26

First: “All Christians will be aware of the Creed of Nicaea (or they should be) and the input of dear old Emperor Constantine re the decision that Jesus should be deemed a deity at a time when the Roman Empire was in decline”

What is your source for claiming that Jesus was not deemed as Divine until the council of Nicea? It sounds like something you read from a Dan Brown novel. When, in fact, the Bible itself declares Christ as Divine, take for example the Gospel of John (written circa 96 A.D. – roughly 200 years BEFORE Constantine) declares Jesus Christ as eternal and Divine (see John 1:1-17). So, just curious, what is your source of information?

Dan Brown? Yuch! Some did believe Christ was divine and some didn’t – that why they had a wee meeting to discuss it. What’s the date of John authorship got to do with the Divinity doctrine? Some did believe and some didn’t – it didn’t become ‘official’ doctrine until Nicaea. If your Bible has a history of Christianity section – read it.

Second: “All Christians will be aware of the Gnostic teaching (or they should be) that are as old as the NT texts,”

Once again, I must ask, what is your source for information on this? By and large historians and Bible Scholars alike (take Craig A. Evans and Emmanuel Tov, for example) date the New Testament documents as being written between 48 – 96 A.D., whereas the earliest Gnostic gospel (The Gospel of Thomas – not actually written by Thomas, BTW) is dated sometime between 140 – 180 AD, over 40 years AFTER the New Testament Apostles had all died. So, once again – what is your source of information?

Ach you’ve answered your point in your first question. The Book of John is widely regarded as being a Gnostic text.

Third: “All Christians will be aware of the fact that Christendom (Europe) was eventually forced to take on board these teachings and that they were not some sudden realization of ‘truth’ but enforced dogma.”

And once again, your source of information is……??????

Oh my! Source? Let’s start with my high school history or religious education class. Really this is a very strange point for which to seek clarification. Let’s start by thinking about witch burnings shall we? The Inquisition? Or my local Abbey – where, if you failed to attend church one week they would knock on your door to find out why not. This, at a time when if you tried to leave the area – they caught you, brought you back and branded you on the forehead with a hot iron. That would have been the local monks doing that. I live in Scotland.

Anyone can merely make assertions and affirmations as you do, but if you have no support for them then I don’t see any need to answer you – you’re just blowing wind. Name your sources of information on these 3 points, and I will answer your challenge.

I do hope my sources are to your satisfaction. They are a combination of a basic high school education, the Bible itself, Church history and the local church. Okay – it is an old local church) – late 6th century. One of our Scottish monks did attend the meeting at Nicaea – Christianity arrived in Scotland surprising early. That’s because the British Isles were occupied by the collapsing Roman Empire at the time - an Empire that adopted Christianity as its official religion.

The Bible is a book based on human inspiration.

-How do you want people to prove that Moses had a vision of Gods actual creation? The only proof is Genesis.

-How can i prove to you that i have thoughts?

Originally posted by christina-66
Challenge to Christians: Prove the Bible is True

The greatest challenge to Christians is to prove they can be true to the Bible.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/54677830922a.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Partygirl

The greatest challenge to Christians is to prove they can be true to the Bible.

I have to agree to that. The other thing is that hard core Christians cant have limits to what they put their faith in without having some serious questions about its content.

I believe in God, but in my own way. Parts of the Bible just dont add up to my mind set and way of thinking, therefore i cant have true faith in its content. I have to many questions that no christian can answer logically without forcing me to believe in magic.

Originally posted by christina-66
I actually have a love of the Bible....as an historical document. It lends insight into how those in far off times, in far off lands lived in the distant past. That they had to pay taxes, and had a control system in place very similar to the control systems we have in place today. It gives insight into the foods they enjoyed eating and the celebrations they considered worthwhile and the troubles they had to deal with on a daily basis.

All Christians will be aware of the Creed of Nicaea (or they should be) and the input of dear old Emperor Constantine re the decision that Jesus should be deemed a deity at a time when the Roman Empire was in decline

All Christians will be aware of the input of Paul/Saul (or they should be) into Christian doctrine (his writings make up circa 40% of the New Testament). They will also be aware of the fact he never met Jesus and was at the core of a schism of the sect with those who had met him and who were horrified at Paul’s teachings.

All Christians will be aware of the Gnostic teaching (or they should be) that are as old as the NT texts, and their cteachings that anyone who claims Jesus is the son of God ‘is a fool’...or why else would he make the distinction of praying to His father in heaven....if he had only one father. That’s what they say.

All Christians will be aware of the fact that Christendom (Europe) was eventually forced to take on board these teachings and that they were not some sudden realization of ‘truth’ but enforced dogma.

My challenge.
Prove to me (with my knowledge of the Bible) that;
1. Jesus is the Messiah craved by the Hebrews as recognised by Christians
2. The first five books of the OT are not simply a means of giving a disparate and genetically diverse people a unifying sense of identity.
3. That the Bible is the word of God.

You, like any individual, can choose to credit whatever you want. The proof you seek appears to emanate from a sense of vainglory...
If you know, 'the truth', be content in the knowledge, and live your life as best you can. Challenging faceless internet typists is a bit lame...n'est pas?
You may know the trick of hypnosis, but this doesnt equate to power. And once acquired, it is only ever used sparingly, never as parlour game.
Akushla