Challenge to Christians: Prove the Bible is True

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

You state,
""""""No, we know the problems. Read up on radiometric dating, it works. It's the same process that they use to run atomic clocks. Radiometric dating has its flaws but we know how to calibrate against those flaws. We don't do C14 dating on marine life, mainly because we know that marine life has an odd carbon cycle that doesn't allow for it.""""""""

Radiometric dating is based upon the assumption that the world is old, YES
Radiometric dating when done only uses the dates that fit the presupposition of a date in mind, YES

Radiometric dating does not account for leaching, Correct again.

Radiometric dating does not account for solar flares, correct again.

Radiometric dating does not account for the earth's magnetic field getting weaker, why by George he is right again.

Radiometric dating does not account for volcanic activity, whew can this ever stop.

Radiometric dating assumes that the radioactive decay rate has always been the same.

You see the whole science of radiometric dating is flawed from the beginning, anyone who can think for themselves can see this.

We know more about the decay rate of the magnet field with a half life of about 1500 years and we have studied it for over 160 years at a percentage of 10%

than we do of uranium with a half life of over 50,000 years and have studied it for less than 100 years at about .01%

So do not make claim that science is versed in radiometric dating, when we as a people do not have very much knowledge of the changes in decay rate.

And it has been shown that
en.wikipedia.org...
This has been demonstrated by noting that atomic clocks at differing altitudes (and thus different gravitational potential) will eventually show different times. The effects detected in such experiments are extremely small, with differences being measured in nanoseconds.

so if that has been shown to be true then many factors can be assumed "as with all of your belief" that many things can speed up and slow down the decay rate.

So FLAWED is the science of radiometric dating

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


The bible does mention the sun moving around us....but not in that verse

Psalm 93:1
"(...) the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."


1 Chronicles 16:30
"(...) the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."



Ecclesiastes
1:5,
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his
place where he arose."

Clearly....if we cant move...then everything moves around us

EDIT: Theres estimates for the total water on the planet....something like 325 million trillion gallons.
Have you ever seen a modern day container ship in high seas??? The whole thing buckles and bends many many feet....but its made of steel...not wood which would break apart under the HUGE forces being exerted on it. Thats why we dont build wooden container ships
Noahs ark is rubbish....its impossible to fit 2 of every animal on even our largest ships today.

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
reply to post by ACTS 2:38

 

EDIT: Theres estimates for the total water on the planet....something like 325 million trillion gallons.
Have you ever seen a modern day container ship in high seas??? The whole thing buckles and bends many many feet....but its made of steel...not wood which would break apart under the HUGE forces being exerted on it. Thats why we dont build wooden container ships

There is a debate going on about Noah's Ark. One side states that it would have been impossible for Noah and his family to have built the ark because he didn't have the technology needed. They go on to state that a wooden ship could only be about 300 feet long at the most and this would require iron strap reinforcement so the ship didn't break apart. The other side says he did it and the bible is the proof. Not only that, but wooden ships have been found that were ancient Chinese that measure 450 feet long and 150 feet wide, these are the biggest wooden ships ever found. No iron strapping has been reported in these ships.

Ancient Technology

Noahs ark is rubbish....its impossible to fit 2 of every animal on even our largest ships today.

Why do you assume God commanded Noah to take 2 of every animal on the ark? The text does NOT say God did. And by the measurements, the cargo area of Noah's ark is comparable to 522 rail cars.

Feasibility of Noah's Ark


Just interesting to hear this view.

On contradictions in the Bible;

Exodus 21.20-21 '20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.'

Compared to Mathew 22: 37-40

'37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'

Jesus' commandment would appear to contradict the acceptance in the OT that slavery is an acceptable practice and yet there is another mention of slavery in Revelation 18:11-13 wherein it states;

'11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. '

Now I know that it is immoral to enslave another human soul - why wouldn't God?

The Bible is the work of man from a particular time and from a particular culture. It cannot be regarded as the infallible word of God. God has patently lost His morality when it comes to slavery.

reply to post by christina-66


I think the problem with people that struggle with the notion that the Bible is not the Word of God is the fact that many of the old understanding of the Bible has been overtaken with false teachings and false doctrines. The most popular false teaching is the 7 year Tribulation. Almost every Christian believes in this false doctrine. I say it is false because I can prove it biblicaly! You see, the majority of people think that they can be saved by listening to a preacher and taking his word at face value without discerning the truth for their selves.

At the end of the Middle Ages, the Church had fallen into a dead formalism that ushered in the Great Reformation. Many Roman Catholic Priests, some long forgotten, Eckhart, Tauler, Rokycana, Briconnet, Huss and the rest, were used of God to begin a great spiritual revival. At the time, every one of those early evangelists was considered a radical cultist by the established church. Those excommunicate priests taught fanatically "heretical" doctrinal systems like salvation "by grace through faith," believer baptism and communion of both bread and cup for all believers. New converts followed those "left wing extremist" elder brethren, supporting their "heretical" positions, and almost before you knew it, those reformation groups became new denominations.

Five hundred years have passed, and those extremists have become us: the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Free Methodists - the whole Protestant evangelical world. The worthy elders of our denominations passed their views on down to us, and most of them are still taught today. And their views were generally sound, until ... until it came to Bible prophecy.

Among other unlikely concepts, the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast, the Beast with Two Horns, and the Scarlet Beast of Revelation were thought to be real live animals that would roam the earth. When those prophetic doctrines were in style, England was the great world power that spanned the globe and the sun never set on the British flag. Europe was the cultural center of the universe and the United States was but a minor nation full of woodsmen and farmers. In their wildest dreams, theologians of horse-and-buggy days couldn't have imagined two 110 story glass coveredbuildings standing on an island for which the Dutch paid $24, much less, that those buildings would be destroyed by ten Islamic terrorists using commercial airplanes as flying bombs.

If we are honest with ourselves, we can see that the end-time scenarios those venerable theologians proposed just don't fit what is happening in the world today. It is evident to all that we are at the end of the Christian Era, but as yet, there is no visible one-world government, no antichrist, and no Seven-Year Tribulation in sight. Is it possible that the Lord's plan for the end-times is totally different from the traditions we learned in Sunday school? It surely could be, because the Lord appears to have opened His prophetic Word in a new way through two almost unbelievable fulfillments of prophecy that have taken place in the Holy Land during the last 50 years:

In 1948AD, the new nation of Israel was established and in 1967, Jerusalem again came under Jewish control for the first time in 2573 years!

Though they were dispersed from their land for two millennia and persecuted beyond measure, the Jews again control the Holy Land and Jerusalem is again the capital of a sovereign nation called Israel. In the following chapters, we will show that these two events fulfill more prophecy than any other events since the crucifixion and these events allow us to understand Scriptures that were previously a mystery to us. Scriptures that change our view of God's overall plan and of how He intends to bring this age to a close. It is apparent that a rocky road lies ahead for Christians everywhere before Jesus stands on Zion. There are so many verses that predicted the past with 100% accuracy. I mean, they are perfectly detailed, unlike some main stream "prophets". I can go further if need be. However, it could be a book worth of information. I can prove that we have been taught false doctrines through theories. Some of the theories were honest mistakes, but some were taught to deceive! This is why some people say the Bible contradicts itself, when in fact it is the false teaching that is contradictory! Which, in turn, makes people question the Word of God! Another problem is the different translations of the bible. That is a whole other discussion though.

reply to post by NoSoup4U

I think the problem with people that struggle with the notion that the Bible is not the Word of God is the fact that many of the old understanding of the Bible has been overtaken with false teachings and false doctrines.

Nope – I have issue with the morality of the Bible....from what I read not from I'm told.

The most popular false teaching is the 7 year Tribulation. Almost every Christian believes in this false doctrine.

Maybe in the States they do – I can’t say the same for Scotland.

I say it is false because I can prove it biblicaly! You see, the majority of people think that they can be saved by listening to a preacher and taking his word at face value without discerning the truth for their selves.

I take it they’re using Mathew24:21 ‘For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.’ I dunno – when has the world NOT been in a state of tribulation?

At the end of the Middle Ages, the Church had fallen into a dead formalism that ushered in the Great Reformation. Many Roman Catholic Priests, some long forgotten, Eckhart, Tauler, Rokycana, Briconnet, Huss and the rest, were used of God to begin a great spiritual revival.

I think you actually mean that it had become a morally bankrupt, power hungry institution and people couldn’t tolerate it’s corrupt conduct any longer.

At the time, every one of those early evangelists was considered a radical cultist by the established church. Those excommunicate priests taught fanatically "heretical" doctrinal systems like salvation "by grace through faith," believer baptism and communion of both bread and cup for all believers. New converts followed those "left wing extremist" elder brethren, supporting their "heretical" positions, and almost before you knew it, those reformation groups became new denominations.

You mean heretical doctrines like refusing money for salvation. They PROTESTED against corruption and fear mongering.

Five hundred years have passed, and those extremists have become us: the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Free Methodists - the whole Protestant evangelical world. The worthy elders of our denominations passed their views on down to us, and most of them are still taught today. And their views were generally sound, until ... until it came to Bible prophecy.

Not in the Church of Scotland – grounded in common sense it is.

Among other unlikely concepts, the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast, the Beast with Two Horns, and the Scarlet Beast of Revelation were thought to be real live animals that would roam the earth. When those prophetic doctrines were in style, England was the great world power that spanned the globe and the sun never set on the British flag. Europe was the cultural center of the universe and the United States was but a minor nation full of woodsmen and farmers. In their wildest dreams, theologians of horse-and-buggy days couldn't have imagined two 110 story glass coveredbuildings standing on an island for which the Dutch paid $24, much less, that those buildings would be destroyed by ten Islamic terrorists using commercial airplanes as flying bombs.

Erm....I think there’s a lot of people today within and without the church who have difficulty believing this one.

If we are honest with ourselves, we can see that the end-time scenarios those venerable theologians proposed just don't fit what is happening in the world today.

Ever since it was written and read every generation since has believed that the Book of Revelation applied to them.

It is evident to all that we are at the end of the Christian Era, but as yet, there is no visible one-world government, no antichrist, and no Seven-Year Tribulation in sight. Is it possible that the Lord's plan for the end-times is totally different from the traditions we learned in Sunday school? It surely could be, because the Lord appears to have opened His prophetic Word in a new way through two almost unbelievable fulfillments of prophecy that have taken place in the Holy Land during the last 50 years:

I consider Egypt to be more of a Holy land than Israel. My progenitors – the Celts – well they believed they inhabited a Holy land too. The Bible was written for one people – the Israelites. Its teachings were adopted by the Roman Empire becoming its state religion – a means of control via terrorising the soul rather than the body.

In 1948AD, the new nation of Israel was established and in 1967, Jerusalem again came under Jewish control for the first time in 2573 years!

Established by terrorism and maintained by brutality. Not really an example I have any inclination to follow. The treatment of the Palestinians (The Canaanites) is an example of the evil if ever I saw it.

The Promise

Though they were dispersed from their land for two millennia and persecuted beyond measure, the Jews again control the Holy Land and Jerusalem is again the capital of a sovereign nation called Israel.

Actually they lived side by side with the Arabs in PALESTINE (intermarrying etc) until the Zionist movement established the apartheid state that Israel is today. The Jews were a nomadic people who, unlike Christians and Muslims, were allowed to practice usury. As such, people kept getting into hock to them.

In the following chapters, we will show that these two events fulfill more prophecy than any other events since the crucifixion and these events allow us to understand Scriptures that were previously a mystery to us.

Once again the Book of Revelation applies to our generation – God must be getting bored with it.

Scriptures that change our view of God's overall plan and of how He intends to bring this age to a close. It is apparent that a rocky road lies ahead for Christians everywhere before Jesus stands on Zion.

I don’t think that’s going to happen somehow. Israel’s conduct (the government policy – not the individual people) is more demonstrative of the behaviour of Satan’s children rather than God’s. They are not an example I have any desire to follow or emulate. Their disregard for the welfare of non-Jews is abhorrent.

There are so many verses that predicted the past with 100% accuracy. I mean, they are perfectly detailed, unlike some main stream "prophets".

That’s funny – I have this weird ability to predict the past with 100% accuracy too. An example or two would be good to back up your claim.

I can go further if need be.

Oh so can I – so can I.

reply to post by CaDreamer


I'm replying to your post on page 5, for several reasons. One of the lessons I'm learning here on ATS is that we have to research for ourselves, and I thought your post presented more than just the usual opinion. Thank you very much for providing some factual statements I could look into. (Factual statements, as you know can be true, false, or unproven.)

I found a site that discusses these statements (of incredible parallels between Jesus and Horus) and claims they are unproven. The site then records a discussion with two people who strongly support your statements, and they are unable to come up with any proof that would be acceepted here. In fact, the discussions look remarkably similar to an ATS thread.

Please review the site, if you have the time, and let me know your thoughts. Thank you.

www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html
LINK DOESN'T WORK I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Here:


Fixed Link

Hello All
I am brand new here at ATS and I have searched for awhile now to prove to myself wether or not the bible is true. To this day I have not been able to 100% prove that it is or is not totally true,the most plausible explanation for many of the stories in the bible I have come across is in " The Earth Chronicles" by Zecharia Sitchin. May I suggest that you good people read these series of books, it may provide you all with some fresh insights into this topic!

I find it interesting how John 3:16 got into the storyline of the four gospels. The context of John 3:11-3:21 was added to the storyline of the four gospels and the first chapter of Acts? The word of Yahweh is true, it is what was added to it, creeds?

The Bible proves itself true by supernaturally predicting everything that would happen to the nation of Israel throughout the entire pageant of human history.

Anyone that examines both history and the prophecies of the Bible with a critical and unbiased eye will come to this conclusion. However, there are very few among both scholars and laymen that have actually pursued this endeavor.

Most folks make up their minds about the book's validity based on popular misconceptions about it's claims and contents, rather than any kind of profound comprehension of them. Unfortunately, many of these misconceptions are perpetuated by churches and Christians.

Moral authority cannot be established by any human or group of humans.

Moral authority must be transcendent of mankind.

Your misinterpretation of the bible is true.

reply to post by christina-66

My challenge.
Prove to me (with my knowledge of the Bible) that;
1. Jesus is the Messiah craved by the Hebrews as recognised by Christians
2. The first five books of the OT are not simply a means of giving a disparate and genetically diverse people a unifying sense of identity.
3. That the Bible is the word of God.

1. Solid proof of this doesn't exist, but if you take what is written in the bible...which is supposed to be the words of Christ...you'll find that most of his teachings(those that wern't altered) are completely at par with what God would want taught.

2. The Torah was outdated even in that time.....again these people didn't understand God, their understanding of which is far less advanced then what we have today.

3. Its not the word of God, its the word of man "inspired" by God.......

Why are you asking for proof? Why do you need proof? If you don't have faith in what the Bible says, then no amount of proof is going to change that.

I don't need to prove it to you. I have faith in the Bible and if you don't, then go find something else to read. It is not mine, or anyone else's responsibility to prove it to you. Its about having faith, and if you are asking for proof, then you don't have faith in it and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that I do have faith. I know that people get sick of hearing the word "faith" all the time, but that is what its about. If you don't have faith, then don't bother looking for proof.

smh yea this thread is interesting

reply to post by fatalcharm

Why are you asking for proof? Why do you need proof? If you don't have faith in what the Bible says, then no amount of proof is going to change that.

I don't need to prove it to you. I have faith in the Bible and if you don't, then go find something else to read. It is not mine, or anyone else's responsibility to prove it to you. Its about having faith, and if you are asking for proof, then you don't have faith in it and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that I do have faith. I know that people get sick of hearing the word "faith" all the time, but that is what its about. If you don't have faith, then don't bother looking for proof.

The title of this thread was deliberately provacative for the sake of good debate and for no other reason. (i've already stated same in an earlier post). 'Faith' knocks the opportunity for debate right off the agenda - as you say, you either have unquestioning belief or you do not - end of argument/debate. (a boring response imo)

We live in an age of purported religious tolerance but for centuries we did not - that's the primary reason for christianity supplanting indiginous belief systems not because it provides any greater truth. The damage and harm wrought 'in the name of God' is simply shameful and sadly in this new millenium religion is being used once again as a tribal rallying call.

Originally posted by christina-66

...'Faith' knocks the opportunity for debate right off the agenda - as you say, you either have unquestioning belief or you do not - end of argument/debate. (a boring response imo)

We live in an age of purported religious tolerance but for centuries we did not - that's the primary reason for christianity supplanting indiginous belief systems not because it provides any greater truth. The damage and harm wrought 'in the name of God' is simply shameful and sadly in this new millenium religion is being used once again as a tribal rallying call.

"Unquestioning belief," isn't what "faith" is. A lot of folk with faith have been led to it by their questions, critical thinking, and sincere seeking. Speaking in absolutes or using weasel words is not conducive to debate or knowledge.

The "damage" & "harm" done in God's name is abuse and not indicative of a sincere Christian. You do realize the death and havoc done in the name of godless Communism and Socialism...let alone Capitalism don't you?

Originally posted by fordrew
the bible was inspired by god. God pretty much wrote the bible. You can't get any more evidence than that. How about YOU prove the bible is false???

edit on 17-2-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)

God pretty much wrote the bible?? No he did'nt. Many diifferent people wrote the original texts claiming them to be the word of God and then they were copied over and over with mistakes and mistranslations and then the Catholic church removed large parts of the texts at different times to suit the current popes personal views etc etc. Since you claim that the bible is the real word of God it is you who needs to provide concrete proof rather than say 'God pretty much wrote the bible. You can't get any more evidence than that' because that statement is illogical and makes no sense at all.
As for proving that the bible is false I've already covered that above. A book written by MEN about ''God'' badly copied and changed dozens if not hundreds of times over centuries. It contains stories/allegories that have truth in them but then so does the Quaran, so do the Vedas as do the Buddist and Taoist texts.
So you could say that the bible is as true as all the other scriptures but nothing more than that IMO.