The Roman Catholic Church Isnt Evil

Originally posted by dontreally
In my opinion, judgement is a very good thing. After all, mans unique ability to differentiate and analyze, understand and probe, are faculties of JUDGEMENT. Without judgement, you might as well be an animal.

Hence "bohemia" where this chapel is located, means "animal" in Hebrew.

WTF?

The etymology of "Bohemia" is from the Latin "Boiohaemum" meaning "domain of the Boii". The Boii were a pre-slavic Celtic people, who were pushed out by the Germanic tribes and then the Slavs. The name "Boii" is thought to derive from Protoindoeuropean for "warrior" or "cow (herder)". See here: en.wikipedia.org...

The word in Hebrew you're talking about is בעל חיים (ba‘al khayim).... which sounds precious little like Bohemia anyway... and certainly doesn't have the same etymology. In Hebrew, ba'al (בעל) comes from the verb "to possess" or "to own". It is also used of the relationship of a woman to her husband, and of man to God. Khayim (חיים) means "alive, living, animate, animated, etc." in this context.

All that notwithstanding...... I am utterly amazed that so many people have taken the bait of allowing this topic to be derailed into a "Judasim is the bestest religion" thread instead. That question has absolutely nothing to do with the question of why there are bones in a chapel as the OP asked. Although now it's clear that the topic of the thread should have been "On why Judaism is goodest and all other religions (especialy that smelly Catholic Christianity) are pooey and nasty", and it should have popped into BTS at the beginning if we'd have seen through the bluff.

Cheers.

reply to post by dontreally


America was founded on socialist-totalitarian ideals, ironically enough. That is why the House of Representatives is adorned with fasces, that is why the Lincoln memorial is adorned with fasces, that is why Washington is portrayed as a demigod in the Capitol. Washington was a member of the Cincinnatus Society, which staged a coup in 1783 and imposed the Constitution (although you won't find it referred to as such in history books, because victorious fascists always hide the evidence of their wrongdoings). The germ of totalitarianism has always been there and it has been strongly expressed at various points in American history, although the modern American's memory does not recall anything beyond the civil war.

Forgive me if I do not extend to Judaism the courtesy that I deny to Christians, Muslims, Buddhists et cetera. I do not believe that the 'tradition' has been unchanged in the past millennia, as all traditions are reshaped by the people who pass them on. Over that many generations, there is zero doubt in my mind that Judaism was 'distorted' (evolved) because of a massive historical game of broken telephone.

The germ of stoicism must have been in Judaism, as Jesus was a Rabbi and he managed to find it somewhere in there.

Edit: I almost got sidetracked. I asked before, can you explain why death-veneration is bad, given the historico-cultural context in which this ossuary was created? If you are going to explain it with Judaism, then can you at least explain why Judaism opposes it? I am not clear on why death-veneration is anti-Jewish, your posts did not help me to understand. I don't know why Judaism is opposed to death, or how it is opposed to death. This needs elaboration.

reply to post by dontreally


Hmmm... I thought that was an Orthodox ossuary.
Anyway the purpose of ossuaries are to keep the bodies of the dead in their entirety without taking up a ton of space in the ground. Catholics were very against cremation up until the 20th century because they thought that if the body was cremated, the soul would have nothing to occupy at the resurrection. So, the bodies of the dead were kept intact in graveyards, sepulchres, tombs, catacombs, and ossuaries. Many ossuaries in large cities wound up with more bones than they could store properly so to better accommodate as many bones as possible they began arranging them in macabre artwork.

Creepy, but easily explained.

reply to post by d60944


Your knoweldge of Hebrew is severely lacking.

Behema means animal, as in Genesis 24 "And God said, "Let the land produce living animals according to their kinds..."

The word for 'animals' in this verse is Behema בהמה..

Ok?

And the etyomology makes no sense. When people think of a bohemian, you think of a person who acts like an animal, who " does not live according to the conventions of society" ie; sort of like the god dioynsus, who overcomes all boundaries.

This is the basic idea of Bohema and the basic intent behind the Bohemian Grove.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


So than what is the Mishna, Talmud, etc? Written some 2000 to 1500 years ago? Are you saying the Rabbis who have passed down this tradition, despite their studying it 6-16 hours a day? (some spend even more hours than that studying Talmud) forgot it? Or somehow dont know how to read Hebrew or Aramaic? The tradition contained in the Talmud and the discussions therein are understood and practiced till today - all 613 commandments with their explanations in Talmud, Rashi (11 century rabbi in provence), Rambam (maimonides in 12th century), Ramban (late 12th, early 13th century?) et and so on until the modern era.

For you to arbitrarly say "its a case of broken telephone" despite the historical documentation in sacred texts is simply ridiculous.

I almost got sidetracked. I asked before, can you explain why death-veneration is bad, given the historico-cultural context in which this ossuary was created? If you are going to explain it with Judaism, then can you at least explain why Judaism opposes it? I am not clear on why death-veneration is anti-Jewish, your posts did not help me to understand. I don't know why Judaism is opposed to death, or how it is opposed to death. This needs elaboration.

What does death worship entail?

By death I extrapolate evil. Since all things can be an expression of either Beneficence(good) or Severity (evil). All things are an expression of these two modes, which in purely dyanmic terms are expansion and contraction. Death is a contraction, and so an expression of the "left", "Darkness". What also goes along with 'death' worship are things you probably find equally useful and acceptable; lying, cheating, hating, stealing etc. After all, in accord with your argument, death despite it being the opposite of life, and so the opposite of all value and meaning, is the epitome of entropy. Lying is also an expression of 'entropy' in asmuch as it complicates the simple truth.

My contentions and indeed the fact that the 10 commandments contradict the lunacy you claim to be present in Judaism should put this argument of yours to rest. There is no "other side" to Judaism. Its say clearly in concrete terms how one should act in the 10 commandments. Conversely, Christianity only has some vague philosophical principles - 8 of them, that imply nothing explicit about how one should conduct himself. The Torah of the Jews says "thou shalt not kill, steal". Under only special circumstances can certain laws be overrided; For instance in punishing those who neglect their responsibility to honor these 10 commandments. For instance, a killer deserves nothing less than death (after a trial of course). A thief has to pay back double that which he attempted to take. etc

And where could Jesus have learned what he did? Jesus lived in a period when the Greeks and Romans controlled Judea, and as the Talmud explains and as Haunukah commemorates (the prevailing of Judaism over the West ideology which you imagine as the only possible truth) the Greeks wanted the Jews to accept their philosophy and ideology. When the Jews rejected their beliefs the Selucid governor ordered that Jews were no longer permitted to study Torah, Observe the Sabbath or circumsize their infants; essentially banning Judaism. It was this Greek tyranny which forced the Hasmoneans to consolidate and kick out the Greeks to establish a free Jewish state which lasted for 200 years...before the Romans came and finally kicked the Jews out in 150 CE. So, Jesus picked up his 'gnosticism' obviously from the pagans living around him. Do not attribute his apostacy to anything in Judaism, when clearly their response to his 'sermons' indicates the complete opposite.

reply to post by dontreally


So, your argument is that death-veneration is bad because it accepts that Death is a necessary part of life, gives definition and boundaries to life, has power over life, always conquers life?

edit: This is my 666th post.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by d60944

 

Your knoweldge of Hebrew is severely lacking.

Behema means animal, as in Genesis 24 "And God said, "Let the land produce living animals according to their kinds..."

The word for 'animals' in this verse is Behema בהמה..

Ok?

Apologies, so בהמה is more like "beasts" or "creatures" (or "cattle" in the OT), but I take your point.

And the etyomology makes no sense. When people think of a bohemian, you think of a person who acts like an animal, who " does not live according to the conventions of society" ie; sort of like the god dioynsus, who overcomes all boundaries.

This is the basic idea of Bohema and the basic intent behind the Bohemian Grove.

I'm sorry that it "makes no sense" to you. It happens to be true.

The use of "Bohemian" in the sense of "gypsy" (which looks like what you are getting at here) comes from 19th century France (Bohéme). It was a catch-all term for Eastern European gypsies living in the West, as some arrived in France by way of Bohemia. It's etymology still comes from the same place as Bohemia though.

This was gone over in a previous thread where you tried exactly the same course of using this ossuary to whip Christianity and praise Judaism, here: www.abovetopsecret.com... and this new thread is doing nothing new.

I expect you'll open another one in a couple of months...

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


congratulations on your post.

Yes, that would be it...

Again Smedly, i forsaw at the beginning where this conversation would go. I am acquainted with gnostic philosophy and i reject it.

If youre interested in understanding more about the position of Judaism, you can read Moshe Chaim Luzattos "The way of G-d", Derek HaShem, which does a superlative job explaining the purpose and meaning of the creation of the world and mans role in it. .

I can understand your position but i feel its inadequate. The reason why Judaism differs, ultimately from gnosticism, taosim, buddhism, or vedanta, or sufism, or any of the extant traditions rooted deep in the past, is because Judaism, unlike these other traditions was divinely recieved. Kabbalah afterall means "Recieved"

The sages say the Torah PRECEDED the creation of the world, and therefore the "beginning" will not be known until this worlds end, at the 6000 years of human history (current year being the 5771 in Heb. calendar). This world was fashioned with the name Elohim, as the narrative in Genesis shows.. The FUTURE world however, the world that G-d wants makind to earn as a co-creator, is the the next world, known as the messianic era which will follow this world. The Torah prescribes a code (Torah is from the root "Horah" meaning "to instruct") by which man can perfect this world and have this world recieve the higher abstract potential of the Torah yet to be fully revealed in this lower reality. The Torah is a nature that transcends the lower order, which you consider the ultimate reality.

Anyone who has studied Hebrew will come away with the understanding - if he has any shred of modesty, that Hebrew is a divinely inspired language. The Kabbalists regard it as the mind of G-d in human language.

reply to post by dontreally

The reason why Judaism differs, ultimately from gnosticism, taosim, buddhism, or vedanta, or sufism, or any of the extant traditions rooted deep in the past, is because Judaism, unlike these other traditions was divinely recieved. Kabbalah afterall means "Recieved"

Welp, I have to bow out of this one. I cannot debate this point with you, and I don't think I will achieve anything by arguing further. Thank you for your responses.

reply to post by d60944


Just to enlighten you: etyomolgies are often Guesses that frequently ignore Hebraic sources in even very obvious cases; like abracadabra or giraffe, or in simple english words like "over"..

So, its not a fact. Just like you were wrong earlier, you are wrong here aswell.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


lol.

I figured that would end this conversation.

If youre going to honestly draw me into your arena of why evil is bad, and should be avoided, ill do the same back.

reply to post by dontreally


It's not a worship of death, it's a comfort with death. It's something that is actually a logical extension of Christian ideology made manifest. If you're a Christian and truly accept its principles then a comfort with death as exemplified by using the remains of the deceased for decoration would be not only be obvious but admirable.

reply to post by dontreally


I drew you into the arena because I can see how this ossuary could be considered good. Your argument id not explain why it was bad, you just repeated that it is bad according to the principles of Judaism. You could not provide me with these principles so that I could understand how Judaism forbids this ossuary.

You also did not tell me why it would be bad if this ossuary contradicts Judaism. I do not agree with Judais, because I do not know its principles. I cannot agree with you when you say that is it bad for being anti-Judaic death worship, because I do not know how seriously I can take the claim that Judaism=good and death worship=bad.

You do not seem to appreciate my concern, and are unable to provide answers. I do not hold it against you, but I do not think that I will be able to proceed any farther.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

I drew you into the arena because I can see how this ossuary could be considered good

It takes a great deal of thinking and twisting the simple matter to see this as being good.

You do not seem to appreciate my concern, and are unable to provide answers. I do not hold it against you, but I do not think that I will be able to proceed any farther.

Ok, without invoking Judaism, this is why i believe this issue to be bad.

Each person has his own "G-d" calling out to him from heaven "do not eat the forbidden fruit". One recognizes the voice and intimately understands that it seeks his welfare, yet, when under duress or great temptation, he succumbs to the urge of his lower material side and eats that fruit, and lets the "snake" pervert his mind, logic and philosophy.

Obviously you can see from the above parable that the garden of Eden narrative describes each persons own personal relationship with reality. CONSCIENCE, is why i consider evil to be wrong. Conscience - alone natural, and not influenced by social factors in the least bit (since one wants whats best for him, he should recognize as being reasonable that he should seek whats best for his fellow aswell) is the great instinct of mans spiritual nature that requires no need to assume.

You conversely assume that we shouldnt let our conscience do our assuming. So on the contrary, your attitude is unnatural, and a perversion of mans true spiritual nature.

It is like a snake which twists back and forth - hugs to the ground - his baser instincts, in order to make life enjoyable for his consumption.

All animals teach something to man; and the snake is the great deciever, and manipulator (NaCaSH in Hebrew - snake, is also the root of 'magician' or 'diviner') and we learn from this particular creature how NOT to act.

So do not act so confused by my not stating outright why death worship is bad. It should really go without saying. Thus is the nature of mans conscience, which with wisdom understands that certain things are inherently bad and inimical to his spiritual development.

Death exists because frankly we allow it to exist. Only with Adams "eating of the fruit" - succumbing to his lower base nature did he even begin to percieve death, and evil, and experience negative emotions. His mind was unconcerned with these matters because he was keenly aware of only the divine unity of all that exists. So, naturally, there wasnt any meaning or purpose to emphasizing death, let alone decorating a chapel with the the remains of human skulls and bones. Doing such a thing before "eating of the forbidden fruit" would be tantamount to sticking your hand in fire - you know what the result will be and so avoid doing it.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


You still got plenty of madness in your soul.

To those christians who havent completely corrupted their minds with gnosticism, if it was left to vote, i wonder how many would consider this chapel "admirable" as opposted to contemptible.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

You still got plenty of madness in your soul.

To those christians who havent completely corrupted their minds with gnosticism, if it was left to vote, i wonder how many would consider this chapel "admirable" as opposted to contemptible.

I don't consider myself corrupted by Gnosticism, but I consider it if not admirable, at least reasonable! It simply reflects a different culture and a different time, when people were less freaked out by reminders of mortality, less in denial of death..
Consider Yorick's speech in Hamlet, when holding the skull - he says "Go tell my lady, that though she paint an inch thick (referring to heavy make-up) "to this end shall she come".
Vicky

reply to post by dontreally


Well, those Christians wouldn't understand a cultural that actually embraces death as an inevitability of life. This chapel comes from a period of time where death was part of life. When someone died the body would be laid out in the house, not in a separate building. People would often die either at or incredibly close to their homes rather than miles away.

I'd recommend you actually study the history of human perception of death rather than just label something you don't understand that happens to have a lot of skeletal decoration as 'death worship'.

If you want death worship, look up "St. Death" in Mexico, that's real death worship and the Catholic church more than frowns upon it.

reply to post by dontreally


The thing about an argument from conscience that seems to undermine your confident statement, death veneration is bad, is that everybody feels their conscience differently. Everybody feels instinctively, intuitively, that some things are bad. However, they do not all agree on what is bad. They do not all share the same 'moral feeling.'

I suppose that your argument is that they ought to, that they should all share the same underlying conscience because all people descend from Adam, who had a connection with the divine presence. However, I for one do not believe that myth. All I can see is that there are many people with different instinctive reactions to the same moral dilemmas.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Give me an example of distinctive differences in responding to moral situations. I think the "myth" you speak of in genesis is as much a law of nature - our nature - as any other law in the universe.

For instance, if i see an opportunity to take advantage of someone and profit from it, how is that persons conscience any different from my own? The conscience is the response, G-d calling out to one informing them of the total reality of what theyre doing, and how it will harm that person, and ultimately, harm onesself.

Ones conscience is simply ones true life instinct guiding one in a intelligent, constructive direction.

You cannot apply this moral relativistic attitude to the conscience. It takes a society to corrupt conscience. In the end, all normal, perceptive human beings who know and understand the golden rule - dont do to others that which you would not want done to yourself - is completely logical and simply a law of cause and effect. Its recognizing a turn for a turn dynamic. That if i expect to be treated well by others, i should treat them good aswell.

It seems you just like distorting definitions. Conscience to you can mean something completely different, and blue can be black and right can be left and virtually anything is up for debate.

reply to post by dontreally


No offense, but yes, I think that your view, the strict Judaic view, is very provincial. I try to be a global thinker, to take as many varying positions into account, to see the world through kaleidoscopic eyes. What you or any other religious folk take to be common sense, I must put into question. It is my nature. For example, I call into question the very idea of conscience.

Conscience is, in my opinion, always socially constructed. You think that certain things are signs of conscience, and I say that your culture has conditioned you to think that way. I, for one, only feel that stealing is wrong because I think about the suffering that my theft would cause to the small shopkeeper. This is an argument against theft that I have learned from my social setting. I have no problem whatsoever with stealing from large businesses, which are faceless, and I have no problem whatsoever with stealing from small businesses as long as I steal in small amounts and do not get caught.

Now, maybe everybody has some moral feeling by nature. My experience tells me that everybody expresses this feeling in different ways. I can't accept that everybody is deviating from some universal moral standard, especially since I do not believe in god, the chief myth of the Abrahamic religions. Once again, apologies for calling it a myth, but until I see some convincing evidence, I cannot honestly think of it as anything more than a story.