I'm starting to lose my faith in God and Jesus.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


That's quite a similar story to mine, raised a roman catholic by a strictly religious mother, my dad is an atheist but my family used to tell me he was a catholic too, so I wouldn't have 'the seed planted.' I remember when I was about 10 thinking "Dinosaurs existed, which we know they did, but it doesn't mention them in the bible. How can both be true?"

We eventually did sex education in school, and as my scientific knowledge grew another contradiction popped up. "Cain didn't have a wife because there were no other women, and if he had sexy time with Eve, that would have produced some really weird kids." I've heard ridiculous answers to this argument, from "There were other family's living in the garden of eden" to "god allowed incest just that one time."

I carried on believing until I was about 16/17. Then I started 6th form, got into the heavy science; the 3 sciences at A level. I also really started looking into the whole religion topic online and bought a few books. By then the bible was pretty much a fairy tale to me. As more and more contradictions and scientific advancements become apparent it pushes me further and further from religion. I can't see myself going back to it

reply to post by NOTurTypical


If god really exists, why are the prayers of those who truly need his help ignored? Surely a loving god would not do that

Thanks everyone for their replies. I truly appreciate it. I will try to respond to some specific ones when I can find some time. Weekends are pretty busy for me.

I do want to say one thing though. I think I still believe in a God, I just am having a lot of trouble believing the Bible. I don't think it's the inspired, infallible word of God. If that's the case then how are we supposed to worship or even conduct ourselves? I feel pretty much like I've been hoodwinked almost my entire life.

reply to post by FeedTic

. . .I don't think it's the inspired, infallible word of God.

How would you even know?
The biblical Hebrew was already a long dead language in the time of Jesus.
On top of that, it is the only surviving specimen of that long dead language
so there isn't even something to compare it to for context.
My point being, what we think of the Old Testament is just a joint interpretation
of what it meant, and for all we know, it could be the word of God, as much good
as that does.
The New Testament is something more recent with lots of examples in the current
Greek of its day to get a pretty good idea of what it meant.
You might want to instead of totally discarding the Bible, do an exercise in religious
thinking, just imagine the old writings as this fuzzy historical artifact that was mainly
a convenient source for pithy sayings by Jesus when confronted by the religious
authorities of his day. Then go about understanding what Jesus meant, and then
ignore anything else having to do with what the people since Jesus made of a religion
based on him.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Why? Because this discussion needs counterpoints.

Again I'll ask how you could possibly provide a counter-point to my 'personal experiences'?

And I can say, though with possible doubts, that you may be unconsciously selecting the positive examples while ignoring possible negative outcomes, as most people tend to do.

Now you're talking about others personal experiences. lol I can remember quite often my prayers falling on 'deaf ears" when I was still living in blatant, unrepentant sin. See my above post again. Now that I'm repentant anytime the Holy Spirit leads me to do so, my prayers have virtually always been answered except one in particular. I'm quite satisfied.

We unconsciously select with a certain bias in our memories, so I'm not accusing you of doing anything different than what I do when I think about my own life.

Were talking about prayer, I'd assume you have no prayer life. And since you were never born again, God had no obligation to answer any of your prayers to begin with.

Though I must also deem it fit to ask: why does God say no so often?

Quite often we ask for the wrong things, or things against His will. Quite often a person has bitterness or unforgiveness in their hearts and God will not "hear" their prayer. There are all scriptural basis for these.

If God can cure cancer, and a righteous individual asks for cancer to be cured or for a cure to be discovered now, why does it not happen?

I've been witness to 3 miracle cures of cancer in our congregation last year alone.

And once more I must ask, why does God not heal amputees?

Since when is an amputee a life-threatening situation?

The concept of prayer seems...bogus.

Purely arbitrary conjecture. Millions of born again, spirit-filled Christians would completely disagree.

I've yet to see any defense of it. And I'm not going to say that it's a point against theism, as I don't really think the concept of god/s is tied inherently to the concept of god/s that answer prayers.

I've provided my personal testimony. Take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me whatsoever.

reply to post by FeedTic


I no longer see it that way in terms of an external God somewhere "out there". For me God is spirit and truth and life and love, even light, and once you accept God or Jesus into your heart, in spite of our best efforts to run away or get away, there's no use, and who would want to actually run away from the spirit of love and life anyway. The spirit's in me now, probably down to the level of DNA, and although my walk isn't perfect, I do know that fundamentally, deep down, my true self is love and spirit, just like God, and all the rest is just fear of that, for no good reason, as in "i'm not worthy", but that's just my own stupidity and foolishness and ignorance.
What are you praying for, some stuff, more money? I find that if we really believe and pray rightly for things like courage, compassion, understanding, wisdom, lovingkindness, forgiveness, that we get what we need, and if we know, say through increased wisdom, that love is causative and formative, and courage the will to move forth in fear and trembling, then hey we get all the stuff we need too. God wants to have an intimate love relationship with us, spiritually, he wants to co-habitate with us, spiritually, he wants to experience his own creation through us and express his love through us to those in need. Sometimes for me, he's like the spirit of the logos or logic, and I allow that to communicate through my writings here at ATS, to increase awareness and understanding on the part of my fellow people who are seeking.

But God is not a magic sky genie, and that's small minded, fundamentalist thinking, silly and stupid in a way.

And why this exclusive focus on the transcendant God, when God is BOTH innerent AND transcendant both, AT THE SAME TIME. We operate as if we are not children of God, and crawl around begging for God the sky genie to help us out, in terms of causation, when all the while his is a shared kingdom and here we are with free will, bounded within the law of karma (which Jesus Christ resolved btw), and getting everything we deserve for the most part, based on our consciousness and our constitution.

Oh of course God is a higher power than the self, but again, we must remember that the spirit lives within our body temple (however much we may grieve the spirit at times when we get out of alignment with it) and is our TRUE self, when we've died to ego self. In many ways, for the reborn, God is our condition, and neither God, nor we are a thing. It's an awareness a realization, not just an object of worship and adoration, although we are of course grateful for having been included in the creation, and given the opportunity to seek and ultimately to find God and be rediscovered ourselves in the process.

Our thinking is still so Newtonian Materialist Monist, even Christian believers, who've been shaped by these worldviews and paradigms which bear I'm pretty sure no similarity at all, to the reality that Jesus inhabited with his Christ consciousness, something he'd very much like to share with us I'll bet - the realization of eternal life here and now, regardless of things and circumstances.

When will we start "getting" it? why must we grovel around having learned and understood only the exoteric meaning of our faith, I don't get that.

I'm a Christian mystic and "mystic" I think is the only way to be a Christian, because then there's an evolution and transformation of the human being available in felt experience, or gnosis, and this is how we have relationship with God in awareness adn mutuality, in prayer and petition as well as in contemplative silence and waiting on God in the space of quiet listening for that still small voice, and the love which moves us, the peace and joy complete which brings with it happiness, the happiness that poor lady who gave all she had in that one coin probably had, the happiness of knowing that no matter what happens, God's got our back and will not let us come to ruin.

P.S. The spirit also tells me that the OP is an atheist hoaxer, but I still operated like that wasn't the case, to be as informative and as helpful as possible for the collective reader, as well as other ATS members.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Again I'll ask how you could possibly provide a counter-point to my 'personal experiences'?

The counterpoint is as simple as stating that personal experiences are nothing to go by. Which was essentially what I said.

And I can say, though with possible doubts, that you may be unconsciously selecting the positive examples while ignoring possible negative outcomes, as most people tend to do.

Now you're talking about others personal experiences. lol I can remember quite often my prayers falling on 'deaf ears" when I was still living in blatant, unrepentant sin. See my above post again. Now that I'm repentant anytime the Holy Spirit leads me to do so, my prayers have virtually always been answered except one in particular. I'm quite satisfied.

Again, this is a clear example of either cognitive dissonance or selective prayer. There's never been a demonstration of actually answered prayers, though there have been many attempts to do so.

We unconsciously select with a certain bias in our memories, so I'm not accusing you of doing anything different than what I do when I think about my own life.

Were talking about prayer, I'd assume you have no prayer life. And since you were never born again, God had no obligation to answer any of your prayers to begin with.

Le sigh...I don't want to get on to stupid doctrinal debate. Simply put: "born again" theology has no more scriptural basis than any other form of salvation theology...actually, Universalism technically is the most scripturally based salvation theology, but that's a matter for a different thread.

And nowhere in the Bible does it state that the basis for answering prayer has anything to do with your state of being either 'born again' or not....even if I were to take such a clearly contradictory book as evidence.

Though I must also deem it fit to ask: why does God say no so often?

Quite often we ask for the wrong things, or things against His will. Quite often a person has bitterness or unforgiveness in their hearts and God will not "hear" their prayer. There are all scriptural basis for these.

If God only answers prayers that are in favor of his will...wouldn't he have done those things anyway? What's hte need for prayer? If this being can violate

If God can cure cancer, and a righteous individual asks for cancer to be cured or for a cure to be discovered now, why does it not happen?

I've been witness to 3 miracle cures of cancer in our congregation last year alone.

Bull*I'll preempt the profanity filter*. Pure, and utter bull*profanityfilterpremption*. F*profanityfilterpremption*ing bull*profanityfilterpreemption*.

You're either deluding yourselves or you somehow have evidence of a violation of the laws of physics that you're not sharing with the rest of the world. I'll continue to call BS until you prove this claim.

And once more I must ask, why does God not heal amputees?

Since when is an amputee a life-threatening situation?

Since when is blindness? Jesus had no problem curing blindness. Losing a limb is one of the worst burdens for an individual, particularly a leg. It can actually lead to deep depression that results in suicidal tendencies. Well, or 'demons', as Jesus clearly didn't understand what mental illness was.

The concept of prayer seems...bogus.

Purely arbitrary conjecture. Millions of born again, spirit-filled Christians would completely disagree.

Millions of devout Mulsims, millions of devout Catholics, millions of devout Calvinists, millions of devout Buddhists, etc etc would all completely disagree with you and each other. Your claim is no more valid than the others. Of course, I could go back even further: millions of devout ancient Greeks, millions of devout ancient Nords, etc etc. We could go back through the ages to billions of people each thinking their prayers were answered by different deities or even the same deity that had different requirements as per religious differences.

Your statement, an argumentum ad populum (a misapplied one as the populace isn't even on your side here), is a logical fallacy. I was simply stating my opinion on the matter with that, not saying that my opinion was conclusive.

I've yet to see any defense of it. And I'm not going to say that it's a point against theism, as I don't really think the concept of god/s is tied inherently to the concept of god/s that answer prayers.

I've provided my personal testimony. Take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me whatsoever.

Just like your personal testimony, it doesn't matter whatsoever. Facts, evidence, tests...those are the things that matter. And every single time prayer was tested it failed.

reply to post by FeedTic


I'll put it to you simply: you're right about the Bible. Even just the New Testament is contradictory. Hell, Paul's writings in it alone contradict each other, and the Gospels contradict themselves.

Now, I'd simply like to inquire, for the sake of understanding where you're at better, what makes you still believe in a deity? And what is your conception of this deity?

Originally posted by FeedTic
I just am having a lot of trouble believing the Bible. I don't think it's the inspired, infallible word of God.

I can definitely relate to that feeling/thought. It's been messed with (interpreted, taken from, added to) so many times, that we can't trust it to be anything other than a piece of fiction. There have been people through the years who used it as a means of controlling the people. How could it possible be the word of God, when people have written, re-written, edited and changed it?

If that's the case then how are we supposed to worship or even conduct ourselves?

I am a firm believer that we have within ourselves, all we need to know. Look within. You will find the answers to your questions there. You know the difference between right and wrong. You know how to treat other people. You know the values of honesty, compassion, generosity and appreciation of life, etc. I'm just sure you do. Find them within yourself and own them as your belief system.

As far as worship, I'm not sure it's necessary. It's definitely not necessary in my life. But if you get quiet and look within, asking yourself these questions, I am certain that you'll find your answers.

I feel pretty much like I've been hoodwinked almost my entire life.

I hear that! But know that you can recover from it. I think we all (or most of us, anyway) have to spend a part of our lives recovering from what we were taught and forced to experience as children. It gets better and more clear as you go. Right now you're in the middle of all this discovery I totally understand feelings of betrayal and even confusion, but it does pass. Just trust YOURSELF and the people around you who want what's best for you, without pushing their agenda on you.

Again, good luck (although I don't think you really need it. You're going to be fine.)

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The counterpoint is as simple as stating that personal experiences are nothing to go by. Which was essentially what I said.

That's your arbitrary opinion, you realize therefore I'm equally entitled to mine. You're wrong.

Again, this is a clear example of either cognitive dissonance or selective prayer. There's never been a demonstration of actually answered prayers, though there have been many attempts to do so.

You mean God has refused to bow down and answer prayers for the skeptics for testing? Now why would He EVER do that???? lol

Le sigh...I don't want to get on to stupid doctrinal debate. Simply put: "born again" theology has no more scriptural basis than any other form of salvation theology...actually, Universalism technically is the most scripturally based salvation theology, but that's a matter for a different thread.

Utterly false. And Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

And nowhere in the Bible does it state that the basis for answering prayer has anything to do with your state of being either 'born again' or not....even if I were to take such a clearly contradictory book as evidence.

Wrong again. The Bible states in numerous places the prerequisites for god to "hear" prayers and answer them.

If God only answers prayers that are in favor of his will...wouldn't he have done those things anyway? What's hte need for prayer? If this being can violate

He has chosen to act through His creation. He's sovereign, I can't tell you why He does this.

Bull*I'll preempt the profanity filter*. Pure, and utter bull*profanityfilterpremption*. F*profanityfilterpremption*ing bull*profanityfilterpreemption*.

You're completely wrong. A young boy had a brain tumor the size of a golf ball, after prayer from the congregation the mass disappeared, not even visible on x-rays. He was wearing a patch over his right eye because the mass had screwed up his vision so bad without it it made him very nauseous. He no longer wore the patch after the mass was healed. Another woman had Leukemia, it is now gone, her doctor declared there was "no evidence" of the cancer anymore in her blood. And another woman had a mass in her breast which on her return visit in a month was completely gone.

Your statement, an argumentum ad populum (a misapplied one as the populace isn't even on your side here), is a logical fallacy. I was simply stating my opinion on the matter with that, not saying that my opinion was conclusive.

No it's not. I never claimed it was true because X number of people would agree with me.

Just like your personal testimony, it doesn't matter whatsoever. Facts, evidence, tests...those are the things that matter. And every single time prayer was tested it failed.

Like I said, I highly doubt God would bow down to skeptics to answer a prayer for their "testing". The Bible clearly states God acts on faith. God will not prove Himself to give someone faith.

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
I don't want to tell you what to do, rather I will share my experience. When I hit the crossroads, I dropped the dogma but maintained the spirit in my heart. After watching Joseph Cambell, a scholar in international myth, something he said resonated with me and that is god is a god of a thousand faces, appearing through one's familiar vernacular. Additionally I expanded the notion and now I have a similar view to the Taoist and the tao as well as the Native American "spirit in all things." I see god more as a force than an entity, but this is just my opinion.
Follow your heart....

Peace,
spec

I obsolutely agree with you. I hope that the OP will consider what you have shared. The spirit is within the heart.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by FeedTic

 

.P.S. The spirit also tells me that the OP is an atheist hoaxer, but I still operated like that wasn't the case, to be as informative and as helpful as possible for the collective reader, as well as other ATS members.

edit on 9-1-2011 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

The Spirit tells you that I'm "an atheist hoaxer"? Really? I know you are going to continue to listen to the Spirit, but I'm not sure what Spirit your listening too. I have been and technically still am a Christian. I'm just stuck at a crossroads right now.

Maybe Satan is trying to deceive me. Maybe it's all hogwash. I don't know right now. That is one reason I've come here. I have read excellent replies from both sides. I am still struggling, but I am reading some things that are giving me some clarity.

Things like maybe I need to just look within for God. Maybe I need to drop the Bible as my guide book and rely on the Spirit of God to move me without Dogma from the Christian churches, specifically Southern Baptist.

Thanks to the many who have helped.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thanks so much for your reply, It really hit home for me.

I appreciate it.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The counterpoint is as simple as stating that personal experiences are nothing to go by. Which was essentially what I said.

That's your arbitrary opinion, you realize therefore I'm equally entitled to mine. You're wrong.

Actually, it's neither my opinion nor arbitrary, it's a means of rational thought. Personal experience has been repeatedly shown to be fallible.

Again, this is a clear example of either cognitive dissonance or selective prayer. There's never been a demonstration of actually answered prayers, though there have been many attempts to do so.

You mean God has refused to bow down and answer prayers for the skeptics for testing? Now why would He EVER do that???? lol

Ah, and here's the assumption that skeptics did the testing. Hint: it wasn't the skeptics testing it all of those times. The most famous instance was from the Templeton Foundation, a pro-Jesus group, trying to show that prayer is totally awesome.

Le sigh...I don't want to get on to stupid doctrinal debate. Simply put: "born again" theology has no more scriptural basis than any other form of salvation theology...actually, Universalism technically is the most scripturally based salvation theology, but that's a matter for a different thread.

Utterly false. And Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Not utterly false. And I'm not getting into this discussion here. There is enough scriptural basis to support any of the salvation theologies found in contemporary Christianity because the book repeatedly contradicts itself.

And nowhere in the Bible does it state that the basis for answering prayer has anything to do with your state of being either 'born again' or not....even if I were to take such a clearly contradictory book as evidence.

Wrong again. The Bible states in numerous places the prerequisites for god to "hear" prayers and answer them.

Jesus says that he who has faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains. Nowhere does he say there's a prerequisite for prayers to be answered.

If God only answers prayers that are in favor of his will...wouldn't he have done those things anyway? What's hte need for prayer? If this being can violate

He has chosen to act through His creation. He's sovereign, I can't tell you why He does this.

So he's...fickle?

Bull*I'll preempt the profanity filter*. Pure, and utter bull*profanityfilterpremption*. F*profanityfilterpremption*ing bull*profanityfilterpreemption*.

You're completely wrong. A young boy had a brain tumor the size of a golf ball, after prayer from the congregation the mass disappeared, not even visible on x-rays. He was wearing a patch over his right eye because the mass had screwed up his vision so bad without it it made him very nauseous. He no longer wore the patch after the mass was healed. Another woman had Leukemia, it is now gone, her doctor declared there was "no evidence" of the cancer anymore in her blood. And another woman had a mass in her breast which on her return visit in a month was completely gone.

I see. So...I'll just take your anecdote. Because, you know, that's reliable. I mean, I'm sure you personally saw that all sorts of tests were done to prove this was miraculous rather than purely natural.

Again, bull*profanityfilter*

Your statement, an argumentum ad populum (a misapplied one as the populace isn't even on your side here), is a logical fallacy. I was simply stating my opinion on the matter with that, not saying that my opinion was conclusive.

No it's not. I never claimed it was true because X number of people would agree with me.

Ah, but you said that there was some weight in millions believing it were so.

Just like your personal testimony, it doesn't matter whatsoever. Facts, evidence, tests...those are the things that matter. And every single time prayer was tested it failed.

Like I said, I highly doubt God would bow down to skeptics to answer a prayer for their "testing". The Bible clearly states God acts on faith. God will not prove Himself to give someone faith.

Which is why your particular version of God is...insane...to say the least. You say that he performs miracles, that he regularly violates the laws of physics...yet he won't let someone who openly asks for proof to see it.

Also, he doesn't seem to have a problem changing people's minds, I mean, he did harden a hell of a lot of hearts.

Originally posted by rebeldog
reply to post by ACTS 2:38

 

see you just proved your lack of higher IQ.. god created us perfect?? really?

then how did man make a mistake if we were perfect?? would a perfect creation, created by a perfect being EVER be anything other than perfect? obviously you don't listen to yourself..

perfection is perfection, making anything that isn't perfect shows the creator as NOT PERFECT.. kinda like a parent blaming a kid for their behavior.. wouldn't the parent be responsible for the "childs" actions? hmmm

i know, i know..

Well firstly you once again insult as you claim I did by saying I have a low IQ.

Secondly created perfect with a free will, I should have said.

With that free will Adam and Eve and every body since has does and will chose to sin against the will of God. Some will repent and try to refrain from sinning yet they will still do something that they must stay repentant of. And no just because God forgives us of a sin does not mean we do not have to right the wrong done to others.

Perfection is perfection , hmmm. What about outside variables, say temptation on a being that has free will. Though made perfect that would not mean that judge of a young creation with free will would not be tempted to stray from the plan.

Also you seem to not know what was said by God about eating from the tree of life and how the Devil tempted man.

Genesis 1:
15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Gen.3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now to some it is not clear as they do not explore meaning. The word day in the commandment means time that they eat of it, and refers to the process of decay to the point of death not like it is poison, and when the devil tempted Eve who believe that even touching it would kill her, realized it was pleasant to look at after the temptation and did what her free will desired.

You can make a perfect machine and it will run good for you because you take care of it, then someone walks in while you are away and adds sand to the machine, now your perfect machine breaks down. Perfect is not perfect anymore.

Originally posted by rebeldog
reply to post by ACTS 2:38

 

see you just proved your lack of higher IQ.. god created us perfect?? really?

then how did man make a mistake if we were perfect?? would a perfect creation, created by a perfect being EVER be anything other than perfect? obviously you don't listen to yourself..

perfection is perfection, making anything that isn't perfect shows the creator as NOT PERFECT.. kinda like a parent blaming a kid for their behavior.. wouldn't the parent be responsible for the "childs" actions? hmmm

i know, i know..

Well firstly you once again insult as you claim I did by saying I have a low IQ.

Secondly created perfect with a free will, I should have said.

With that free will Adam and Eve and every body since has does and will chose to sin against the will of God. Some will repent and try to refrain from sinning yet they will still do something that they must stay repentant of. And no just because God forgives us of a sin does not mean we do not have to right the wrong done to others.

Perfection is perfection , hmmm. What about outside variables, say temptation on a being that has free will. Though made perfect that would not mean that judgement of a young creation with free will would not be tempted to stray from the plan.

Also you seem to not know what was said by God about eating from the tree of life and how the Devil tempted man.

Genesis 1:
15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Gen.3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now to some it is not clear as they do not explore meaning. The word day in the commandment means time that they eat of it, and refers to the process of decay to the point of death not like it is poison, and when the devil tempted Eve who believe that even touching it would kill her, realized it was pleasant to look at after the temptation and did what her free will desired.

You can make a perfect machine and it will run good for you because you take care of it, then someone walks in while you are away and adds sand to the machine, now your perfect machine breaks down. Perfect is not perfect anymore.

reply to post by rebeldog

You stated"""""""""""""""
perfection is perfection, making anything that isn't perfect shows the creator as NOT PERFECT.. kinda like a parent blaming a kid for their behavior.. wouldn't the parent be responsible for the "childs" actions? hmmm""""""""""""""""""""


God gave us one simple commandment do not eat from the tree, that makes the responsibility ours.

You mom and dad said no you can not go and you scurry out the window at night, so it is their fault you did not listen.

What logic.

Now if your parents were like many today that let their children run over them and do what ever they want then I would agree with you.

But this is not the case of Adam and Eve, nor was it with my parents.
I was responsible for the things that they told me not to do, and responsible not to lie, cheat, steal, murder also.

If your statement is that God is blaming us for his behavior, then I do not understand what you are claiming. He said do not eat, Adam and Eve ate, not him.

Originally posted by andy1033


Like i said if you do not believe thats your business but do not assume that others around this world have not found things you will never, and most will never.

Why are you so selfish that you want stuff from god? Do you understand what i mean. You should go and ask yourself what that question means.

edit on 1/7/2011 by andy1033 because: (no reason given)

dude...not very Christ like.
why are you being so harsh on this guy?

you don't know this guy's heart.
you don't know what he's been through in his life.

he's asking a legitimate, and genuine, question.
who are you to judge where's he's at in his relationship with God?

it's just so abrasive.

I'm going to remove this thread from myATS because it has been hijacked. The thread was originally about helping the OP. So, FeedTic, if you want to get in touch with me, feel free to PM me. And once again, good luck on your journey.

Originally posted by FeedTic
I have been a Christian since I was 6 years old. I'm now almost 40 and I just don't see how God helps anyone. I mean I pray, my wife prays, and other people I know pray, but the prayers are randomly answered. The bible says that when two or more people come together and pray for the same thing that the prayer will be answered. In my experiences the prayers are hardly ever answered.

I know that there is always an out for the faithful. "It wasn't God's will" or "It will be answered in God's timing not ours." How convenient. I bet I could pray to the Sun and get the the same answers.

Anyway, I'm at a crossroad. Do I continue the path toward God, or do I turn away and follow my own path. I bet I get the same results either direction.

Is anyone else at this crossroad, or have been there? What did you do? What caused you to take the road that your on?

I hope this was the right forum to post this. If not, Mods please move. Thanks.

Dear FeedTic,

I will try and answer you; however, in the end only you can determine what you believe. It does say God answers our prayers, it does not say the answer is yes and it does not say when he will answer. It does say that believers will be tried and even martyred, to believers it is said that if we believe we must pick up our cross daily. It may be worthwhile asking yourself why you ever believed or what kept you believing till now.

I have been at that crossroad and spent a decade plus as an agnostic. I began reading all about the different religions and their history. Someone suggested I read a book called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", it gave me a sound reason for believing in the resurrection. One thing I can assure you is either path you choose will have a different result as it will impact your actions.

In someways I believe it is better to come to any belief system after we have lived some life. I worry that people who "come to Christ" at a young age have a harder time maintaining a deep faith than do people who came later in life because the younger ones haven't had a chance to ask the questions you are now asking.

In the New Testament it says that we should all (Christians) have an answer for why we believe. That then may be the best place to start by asking why you believed rather than why you question. For most the answer is either that it makes logical sense to them, that they have had some personal spiritual experience or that it is what people they trusted (usually family) told them.

I hope that my comments responded to what you meant. Be well.