I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

Funnily enough I had a similar experience on the 17th. I thought I was having a heart attack. Having never experienced anything like that before I was frightened stiff.

Anyway, family member called 999(UK) for an ambulance, which arrived I think within four minutes, was well impressed.

Was taken to a local NHS hospital, in a state of the art ambulance. Upon arrival I was whisked into a modern, high tech A&E(ER) placed on more awesome gadgets and monitored by pleasant, attentive staff till the next morning.

Well, turns out I had nothing more than a very strong panic attack, and I'm now being suitably medicated against future attacks.

Best thing of all is the fact that none of this, including my repeat prescription medication cost me nothing at all.

Oh! and before being sent home I was also fed and watered. With free breakfast, OJ and sweet tea.

I love our National Health Service here in the UK. It's a wonderful institution and I'm very proud of my country for making all this available free of charge.

Originally posted by NWOnoworldorder
reply to post by groingrinder

 

might i suggest immigrating to the uk?...wether you work or not u will get FREE HEALTHCARE....if i was to have all that treatment it would have cost me....nothing....free!!

Not picking on you here so please take it as intended.

Free Health Care is myth and a lie. It does not now, nor has it ever existed.

First, your health care is paid for. It's paid for by your government. Governments except in nations ruled by Dictators have no money themselves. They take it from people who produce wealth by taxing them. Every penny used to pay for your Health Care was taken away from somebody else who earned it. That is how all Entitlements work. Entitlement is a fancy word for Welfare. In this case the people they take the money from by force have no say in the matter. That is the TRUTH.

Look around you at Greece for instance. That is what happens when a government becomes your Mommy, Daddy and Uncle Bob. The citizens start to believe that money just magically appears out of thin air and then they Riot (throw infantile temper tantrums) demanding more candy when the candy is all gone and there is no more money to be stolen from the producers to give to the users. Then the producers move on to get away from the thieves and bums taking all their earnings from their education and hard work. They leave or just quit producing and the Progressive Government fails. The more Progressive the faster it fails.

To the Canadians. We are not all naive enough to believe you have Free health care. We know about the strangling taxes. It not a secret. It's only free to bums who don't work or produce. Just say thank you to those who earned the money your Government took to pay your way.

Second, because of our free market system in the US, we pay for most of the development of procedures, equipment and pharmaceuticals used. We are charged more than you for the same medications and procedures because we are stuck with the cost of developing for instance drugs that are sold in other countries like Canada and Mexico far cheaper. Why is it cheaper there? Because the citizens of another country paid for the research and development of those drugs. More Welfare, only this time from people who don't even live in your countries.
__________________________________________
On topic to the OP.

If you are telling the truth and only earn $50 a month, you are eligible for aid in many forms. First though you have to cooperate with the Hospitals requests to you to apply for the available monies. It is your responsibility to do that. You should not be misleading people and lying to them to make them think no Health Care is available to you. The only way it would not be is if nothing is wrong with you, or if you are unwilling to take the steps necessary to get your needs taken care of. That is a fact in the US and it's getting really irritating how many are willing to lie, when in fact they just go to the Hospital and then don't follow through on getting the financial aid they need.

While my Wife was having surgery last year, I ended up in a very detailed conversation with one of the Administrators. He told me that any necessary procedure could be paid for under one program or another if only the Patients would cooperate and apply. He told me most of the Hospitals losses were due to Patients who come in through the Emergency Room, get treatment and then they never hear from them again and they refuse to apply for the assistance that is available. They even have a person who will fill out the papers for them and all they need to do is provide proof of income and sign the damn papers.

I paid for my Wife's surgery myself. I met with the Surgeon and the Hospital beforehand and made advance payments. The Surgeon knocked 50% off the bill. The Hospital contacted us after we paid off a third of their bill and said that since we kept our word, the bill was now paid in full. All because we were honest with them.

I got quite a lesson from that Administrator as he ran me through a list of all the available resources for the poor to get the health care they need. He told me that they could get 100% of it paid for if they would just do as asked. These are the exact same people who run around lying and doing all the whining. To lazy to fill out and sign papers or they are lying and just don't want to pay.

I, myself was homeless for a bit about 30 years ago. Not only was I able to get having my Appendix removed and the costs from it paid for in full, I found out I could get anything else I needed. It was a real education for me. In the city I was in I could get five, yes five hot meals a day for free. I could get new clothing for free. I got a place to live and they allowed me to work for room and board while I went to school to get another Degree. I worked four hours a day as a volunteer and they fed and housed me. Of course most of this came from Christians and not the Government which I preferred.

Don't throw your hands in the air and whine to strangers. You take the initiative and you will find out you can get the care you need and get it paid for unless you sit back and expect the government or other people to do it for you.

To those in the so called free health care countries. You need to get at least a basic education on where the money comes from that pays for your care. It is NOT FREE. That is a LIE. They took the money away from somebody who earned it and then they give it to people who did not earn it. That is the TRUTH.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Since the creation of managed care in this country by our beloved government in the 60s the health care industry has outpaced inflation in terms of costs by 30% year over year.

The health care industry has seen so much inflation that the end result is what can only be described as HYPERINFLATION.

I agree 100%.
The majority of this hyperinflation is due to the skyrocketing cost of malpractice insurance.TORT reform would cut these costs tremendously and therefore the cost of consumer medical costs.

reply to post by Blaine91555


The health care cost our government less per person than the US model that is handed out to middle men to exhort more money out of people, and guess what you all need it, everyone needs it, and just one set back can cost you your house. Most provinces have small monthly premiums of around 50 a month, zero if your low income and some provinces nothing.

en.wikipedia.org...

The United States spends much more money on health care than Canada, on both a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.[5] In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%.[5] In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private) though these statistics don't take in to account population differences.[6]

Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences. One commonly-cited comparison, the 2000 World Health Organization's ratings of "overall health service performance", which used a "composite measure of achievement in the level of health, the distribution of health, the level of responsiveness and fairness of financial contribution", ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th among 191 member nations

We knew these facts decades ago they were released each year with the stats canada reports.

There is a lot of party politics propaganda floating around in the US.

More stats for ya! Did you know that it costs 40 000 in services for one homeless person. Why, many were kicked out of mental institutions so they should be on disabilities. Alas, at roughly 1000 month disabilities fall short of the poverty line. Ergo, double them, give them 2000 month take home and some subsidized aparmtents, and we would have less money per person.

IT IS SO MUCH CHEAPER TO BE KIND. Well, its not about money, the ruining of lives and lack of equality and social programs.

GEE, wonder what it really is about then?

SLAVERY AND DISMEMPOWERING PEOPLE? Eh?

en.wikipedia.org...

Oh and at around 2% diff in taxes, not bad eh? The chart comparing nations is at the bottom.

www.canadiansocialresearch.net...

These were stats too, but this is 1999, don't know how bad the Bush regime gutted the country for the citizens there.

We've all heard that Americans pay less taxes than Canadians. But in fact, for more than half of Canadians, the grass is still greener here at home.

In Canada, governments tax upper middle-income earners and the rich much more stiffly, and go easier on those with lower incomes. The poor, and those in the lower middle-income ranges, end up with more in their pockets in this country than they do in the States.

For simplicity's sake, the cutoff point comes at about the $60,000 level, slightly above the average Canadian family income.

Been encountering similar for years.

What is medical insurance but another "socialized" system of healthcare? A person can buy into different insurance plans with the hope he has chosen a suitable plan, but how many folks are truly happy with the way their medical insurance benefits them?

I am not sure why there is a price out the door for a person paying his own costs and then another that the insurance companies pay. Surely the OP's $11k down to $3k price is an example of this. And then we are all stuck paying for those who cannot or will not pay their medical bills. These practices suggest some socialized structure need be involved.

If we are under a system where medical services cannot be denied someone on the basis of not being able to pay for it then we need a system where everyone does pay and that means taxes to provide basic care. Insurance can be bought by those who wish to have upgraded medical services, or for those services an option to pay out-of-pocket.

Medical services are like highways and infrastructure, they are things we all need. Basic services need to be provided to everyone with an option to pay for enhanced services.

reply to post by Unity_99


What your ignoring here is huge. There really are givers and takers in this world. One of the huge reasons your health care costs less is the pharmaceuticals R & D is paid for elsewhere. You can't ignore that. Also your health care is rationed.

I worked for a time in Grand Forks, North Dakota. While there I injured my ankle really badly. I called every qualified MD in the phone book to try and get in for help. I could not get in for three days. Why? It was a Canadian Holiday weekend. When I finally got into a Sports Clinic, I noticed that most of the cars in the parking lot had Canadian plates. The Surgeon told me that every time there is a holiday weekend in Canada, ALL of his appointments were locked up with Canadian Citizens. Why? Because it's cheaper to come here and pay for elective surgery than it is to loose income while waiting months on a list for elective care. This is not propaganda. I learned all about this the hard way. In fact I need surgery right now that I would not need had I been able to get into a good Orthopedic person right away. Like I said, I waited for three days due to the Canadians taking up all the appointments.

I doubt that study factored in lost wages and productivity caused by waiting lists and inadequate medical facilities.

As to the Homeless dig. Not only have I paid it all back and then some, but I opted for help from fellow Christians who helped me for pennies compared to what the government would spend. They let me trade work for help.

Not only do I believe in helping each other, I have raised more than a half million a year for charities for the last 25 years. Think what you want.

My Wife would kill me for the following but I hate misconceptions. Thanks to that help from Christians and the added schooling, I own a business and do quite well. I'm at home now during my holiday vacation because my Wife and I decided that since there was so much need this year, it would be wrong to go to Florida and waste lots of money on Hotels and playing.

Right now, my Wife is delivering a truck load of food to a local Food Bank. She left about two hours ago to do it. She does it anonymously and does it many times a year. We do not use it on our taxes. She chose to not recieve any Christmas present this year in fact to pay for that load of food. God I love her. I'm a lucky man.

Think what you want, but relying on the government to take money away from producers to give away to users is a bad idea. The government wastes much of what they recieve. The correct way is for us to take care of each other. Most of my Employees are seriously hadicapped and so am I. Had I chosen to lie down and let the government take other peoples money away from them and give it to me, I would not even feel like a Man. I stopped trying to beat the system and learned to use it.

A world where the government is our Mommy and Daddy will not work. It has never worked and always leads to bad things. You should study about what caused the failure of all the great nations throughout history. It's about to repeat. Sooner or later those Entitlements will drag Canada down, just as it beginning to drag us down. Look at Greece because that is what is in our future. Give people something for nothing and they self-destruct. It always happens that way.

Do you think the government owes you? Remember the government is just money taken away from those who earned it so they can give it to others. Ask yourself why our governments don't require us to work for what they give us? Why don't they fill government jobs with those that need help? It's all about control. The more you depend on them, the more helpless you are and the easier you are to control. From the moment you jump on the government gravy train, you are a slave.

reply to post by Blaine91555




Let me just address your first point that pharmaceutical R&D is done elsewhere. Much of the testing is carried out on unsuspecting Americans only to have that product banned after its dangerous effects are known. New pharmaceutical products are developed all the time and the prices are being paid by American consumers, prescribed by their doctors, when other less expensive medications will often do a better job.

The usefulness of a drug does not run out at the same time as its patent and a cheaper generic product can be made available. Please do not think all of this development of new products is necessary. Big Pharma is a racket. It is all related with the War on Drugs and controls over pharmaceutical products. Not all development of new products is bad but much of it is self-serving and unnecessary.

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Health care should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Education should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Adequate nourishment should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

A roof over you head should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Do you understand what the word RIGHT actually means?

Everything you mentioned (as quoted above) can not and never will be a right, not within any truly free society.

Who do you propose to ENSLAVE to fulfill and grant you those rights you are demanding?

Your RIGHT can not take away another individuals RIGHT, specifically their FREEDOM! You can not force ME or another human to WORK for your BENEFIT and gain ... for free or pay!

What you propose as a RIGHT implies another human will have to be tasked and enslaved with providing you those rights and that is wrong!!! And immoral!!! It's called involuntary servitude, enslavement!

Slavery is nasty, man, utterly nasty. How can you propose and promote slavery like that?

Socialists frighten me and you want to know why? Because I'm smart, and that makes me extra valuable as a potential slave. Try to enslave me to provide you with those so-called RIGHTS and I'll .. .. well, I won't say what I might do, but I can tell you I am willing to fight till death to defend MY freedom !!!

Down with slavery, down with socialism.

The solution here is to fix the problem and the best way to do so is to eliminate all health insurance all together. Seriously, think about it .. everything would become much cheaper. And people would take better care of themselves.

The reason that hospital bill was so much is because of this socialist crap ... They weren't just charging the OP for services rendered to him, they were billing for the cost of other people too, the ones that didn't pay. It works the same way with health insurance too. It's that commie/socialist nonsense that results in these high costs. Those that can pay get stuck paying for their own care AND for others that didn't pay. Socialism. Kill that idea and make every damn human on this planet responsible for themselves and only themselves and the rest of us won't keep getting stiffed with these jacked-up inflated unfair bills, be them the hospital bill or health insurance coverage bill. Socialism, insurance, Medicare, etc., it's that stuff that jacks it all up.

Now, please pay my dinner bill for me, ha, food is a right, and I think we'll eat out tonight. Come on, furnish me with my right!!!

Originally posted by endtimer
reply to post by groingrinder

 

I'm not sure what the point is. You had all of these procedures done,
knowing you only have $50.00 a month, you knew this going to the
Medical Center. Now what? Are you mad at society or the Hospital
in general because they didn't wipe out the entire debt? You stated
that they took off $8,000 and have $3,000 left to pay off. I would say
that is a pretty darn good arrangement. What are you complaining
about? Suck it up and get a part time job. Do something besides
complaining to ATS.

edit on 28-12-2010 by endtimer because: (no reason given)

This is probably the worst thing I can do as a brand new member (my first post) but I am going to infer as to what endtimer has posted. As I have been following this thread I will infer that endtimer is not neccesasirly about poor people getting the shaft but instead endtimer does believe in the current system minus the elitists who are the real drain. That being said I will also infer that s/he has worked very hard and has endured at least one intense situation and possibly a hard life s/he had to work hard for. What I will say now is that the system that s/he takes pride in is the same system that allowed the elitists to thrive and currently infest the system. Thus I can understand his judgement and at the same time refute that the system that he covenants is the one that must be drastically changed. You can go from rich to poor like that! As for the majority here I agree with most (if not all) of you and I wish the OP the best!

reply to post by groingrinder


Its criminal. It makes me wonder why we even bother to form an organized society if we dont bother to take care of our own.

From travels around the world to over 30 countries, i am sad to affirm that even compared to countries where citizens face extraordinary financial challenges, ours is a very ugly culture. There is something extraordinarily disgusting about culture/economy rooted in narrowly ugly and broadly-false assumptions of darwinistic competition and mutually-competitive self-hatred as a foundational cultural dynamic. I have seen more compassionate beggars abroad than the affluent classes in america, and more functional and affordable healthcare systems in dictatorships, than i have in the extremely financially successful insurance/healthcare system in american, which in essence, in its relationship to the compassionate and supportive reasons that humans gather to form culture, is, as i stated: ugly.

Your experience highlights the dynamics of a system turned against itself.

Originally posted by urmenimu2
Its criminal. It makes me wonder why we even bother to form an organized society if we dont bother to take care of our own.

Maybe the issue is how we are going about implementing this "take care of our own" idea. Personally, I don't take kindly to being told what I must do, I don't think anyone likes that other than a socialist.

Caring should be voluntary. Legislated "caring" where a government puts a law, a threat, and gun to your head to solicited your caring ($$$) does not make for a very civilized society or species.

I see this thread is getting a lot of replies but as far as I can see it all boils down to a few main points:

1) The OP certainly wouldn't have had such a big bill if he would've had insurance, some sort of group plan, or some of the few other options besides going straight to the ER. I also learned the hard way that

going to the ER, they're gonna hit you hard with bills that are unjustified and exorbitant beyond belief.

I went to the ER once with what turned out to be a minor sinus infection. I was in and out in under a half hour, a quick prescription for medicine (which they said may or may not work and was more for relief until it went away on it's own), a doctor who did a few arbitrary things (look in the ears, open say aah sort of thing) which lasted all of a minute and a half.

The bill was a little under $ 1,000. Waaay too high for what services I was given in less than a half hour but a nurse even pulled me aside and suggested that I should keep in mind some of the other options I mentioned before because the ER isn't really supposed to be for minor things like that.

2) While the OP certainly should have had insurance or some sort of back up plan to begin with, the fact remains that medical costs are too high and do not match their real life value. I don't care what anyone here says, I really believe that to be true.

Just look at the cost of some of the equipment and how it is jacked up just like what happens for equipment in the military. They can make it cost whatever they hell they say it costs. Who's gonna stop them? Me? No.

I work in shipping and someone recently shipped a medical laser for surgery. The shipper told me point blank that although the laser only cost around $ 2,000 to make, the price tag for it was $200,000. Is that fair? I think not.
I believe that this type of pricing goes on in every aspect of the medical field. Any time money is involved, corruption rears its ugly head and as far as I'm concerned in the medical field, the costs to the patient do not match their real life value whatsoever and that is just plain wrong to prey upon the sick.

I had a friend, a close friend, who developed liver cancer at 42. He was working and had insurance, but was sick for a long time before he went to the doctor and was diagnosed. He was stubborn, and kept working until he couldn't anymore. When he lost his job, he lost his insurance.

After a fall and almost bleeding to death, he went to the ER, and was eventually diagnosed. Now with a catastrophic illness, he applied for Medicaid.

There is, of course, a two year "wait" period. Don't you guys find that hilarious? You money-retentive guys and gals? Money Grubbers? Isn't that very clever of your government? Think of all the money you personally saved. Probaby 5 or 6 dollars? Yay! ............Filthy.

Of course it was known from the diagnosis that he would die before the waiting period was over.

And he did.

His death didn't cost you a cent.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by Vicky32

Let me explain how it works here (New Zealand).
My son is a staff nurse on the cardiothoracic ward at Wellington Hospital - the premier cardiac ward in the country. They use and have the best technology available in the world.
If anyone has an MI, and is brought in, they will have tests and treatment and it will cost them nothing. Zip, nada, niente, goose egg nothing!
That's because our system is paid for by taxation. And it works very well.
Vicky

Yeh, you may have free health care and beautiful, plentiful public parks but how many nukes you got? We got over 10,000 baby, money well spent! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

Oh dear - that's the problem with having a bit of Aspergers (as I do). I was about to get cross, when I realised you're having a laugh! 0 nukes, but hey, we can live without 'em...
Vicky

reply to post by ldyserenity


I think you had some kind of keyboard malfunction with your shift key and spacebar there?

Originally posted by Shamanistical

Originally posted by urmenimu2
Its criminal. It makes me wonder why we even bother to form an organized society if we dont bother to take care of our own.

Maybe the issue is how we are going about implementing this "take care of our own" idea. Personally, I don't take kindly to being told what I must do, I don't think anyone likes that other than a socialist.

Caring should be voluntary. Legislated "caring" where a government puts a law, a threat, and gun to your head to solicited your caring ($$$) does not make for a very civilized society or species.

So what's all of this pledging of allegiance to the United States, if you can't actually go so far as to look out for each other? You know...fellow Americans? It's more than just a flag, you know!

But if I have to explain the concept...it is not within you to get it.

Originally posted by Shamanistical

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Health care should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Do you understand what the word RIGHT actually means?
Everything you mentioned (as quoted above) can not and never will be a right, not within any truly free society.

I donno...it is a right in Canada, and I don't figure we're suffering under any particularly oppressive yoke. Mind you...we did say 'no shenanigans' to our banks and we didn't take the hit you did. Is that a freedom we missed out on?

Ugh. That is terrible. I am Canadian-born, my parents are American and I was raised in the US. I have had my fair share of ER Trips and dealt with the resulting bill while living in the US. It is astonishing how much my family pays for healthcare. I now live in Canada and work for a company who provides me what would be considered premo healthcare down there and I don't pay a single dime for it. My work covers it all, including my MSP. I actually went in tonight for an Echocardiogram and of course it didn't cost me a penny. Every time I go to the doctor or have a procedure done I truly understand how blessed I am to have the healthcare I do. I never take it for granted. Ever. I am really sorry to hear about your nasty bill. If you can swing it, don't pay. The only form of resistance you have is leaving them high and dry. If it gets really bad declare bankruptcy. I wish you the best and I hope your health works out.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I had a friend, a close friend, who developed liver cancer at 42.

Now who's fault is that? Not mine. Death is a fact of life and no amount of "caring/socialism" will change that. Personally, if I found myself in such a predicament, I'm not so sure I'd feel justified to pick your pocket, take a sandwich from the mouth of your children, or steal the roof over your home to pay for MY misfortune. Charity should be put back into the hands of the people, it's not the governments job to be compassionate and charitable and caring and civilized for us. And imagine too, without socialized medicine, maybe your friend wouldn't have had to wait two years for a liver, maybe there would be a surplus of them. I mean, just how much money should we spend on socialized health care? If we spend enough, we might be able to cheat death until we turn 150, or 200, or who knows how many years .. if we can force enough people to pay for it.

Also, I find it highly immoral for those of us that are starting to get up there in years to be calling for a law that will force our children, grandchildren, and the yet to be born into slavery to pay to keep our stinking old asses alive beyond what nature had intended in the first place.

And besides, what's all the stink about health care anyhow, it's not like humans are an endangered species and must be protected at all costs. Heck, we might even benefit as a society if we went back to allowing nature to decide when our time is up.

Gawd, what kind of world do we live in where some humans have become so desperate to cling to life that they feel justified in suggesting that others should be enslaved to keep them alive so that they may cheat death? I can't go for that idea, it might get me sent to he'll when I eventually do die.

Compassion, caring, can't be legislated .. that would in fact merely prove what an uncivilized species humans really were if that were to ever become necessary .. and if humans are truly uncivilized and uncaring, then I couldn't care any less about them either, which is probably the case, ha, otherwise all this wouldn't be an issue. So, please, let's stop forcing ourselves to care, we don't, ha, we're humans!

Originally posted by RichardA
reply to post by groingrinder

 

I feel your pain. I was in the hospital for four days with a pancriatitis (SP?)attack, 27K AFTER they knocked down my bill because of my financial situation. I was unemployed at the time myself and I didn't have insurance. I still have to pay 27K to lay in a bed and take morphine and iv antibiotics. So knowing I owed these people my life (Quite literally) I got off my a.s.s, got a job, got insurance and am paying off that bill. Instead of whining about how unfair it was that they charged me so much, I am grateful they took their time and expertise to save my life without worrying if I could pay them. Sure I got and still get harrassing phone calls, but at least I'm still around to get them.

I make well below the median income for my state, my wife is disabled and we are still trying to get her on Disability. Despite our financial struggles neither one of us complains about paying the doctor, we try not to shirk on our RESPONSIBILITY, and we help those who are worse off than us. Its called personal responsibility, if you don't want to pay the bill, don't get the service. If you want the service, dont whine when the bill comes due. Oh and just for grins and giggles, why do you think the bills are SO much higher for those of us with insurance? Could it be the people who recieve the services and don't pay...........I think so.

So, you got off your derriere and got a job, hey? Well, congratulations - you make it sound as if doing that is easy.
It's not. Here our unemployment rate is about 7%, but I believe it's much higher in the USA. I have heard of people in the USA living in their cars, and having to scavenge food from 'dumpsters'. In a country which spends trillions on war, that's nothing less thanevil!
To those who sneer at Groingrinder because s/he has initernet access - has it occurred to any of you that s/he might use her local library? (We have free internet access at our local libraries, and I believe you in the USA had the same thing before we did...)
Vicky