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I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy

"Stay the hell away from doctors, you'll live a lot longer that way."






posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by Shamanistical

Originally posted by urmenimu2
Its criminal. It makes me wonder why we even bother to form an organized society if we dont bother to take care of our own.

Maybe the issue is how we are going about implementing this "take care of our own" idea. Personally, I don't take kindly to being told what I must do, I don't think anyone likes that other than a socialist.

Caring should be voluntary. Legislated "caring" where a government puts a law, a threat, and gun to your head to solicited your caring ($$$) does not make for a very civilized society or species.


caring should indeed be voluntary. the problem is a culture that breeds heartless morons with no intent to take care of their own, with outward selfishness and grand lack of compassion being their central character. money being an issue of character or lack there-of. the worship of money is a distinct element of ugly-culture. to defend your money is inherantly as ugly as taking someone else's, in some cultures. some native american cultures gave most status to the family that gave away their possessions to the tribe in huge potlatch ceremonies. greed from corporate culture is fugly. period. and it breed shallow people.

the culture is ugly when words like socialism are used as weapons, when the worship of corporate capitalism with all its wars and evils is the paradigm within which the hate-thoughts on socialism emerge. this also explains our ugly health care system to some degree. ...dying culture in my opinion, too fugly to survive.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by In nothing we trust
 



Thank you for the video link. I'm watching them now. Very interesting.

Troy



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 

Thanks for your reasoned and helpful reply.

I live with and care for my elderly father. I also clean the house and do maintenance such as installing toilets and water heaters, garbage disposals, roof repairs, landscape maintenance, taking care of the pets, car maintenance, etc. In return I get a room, use of a bathroom and kitchen, air conditioning and heat and electricity and internet and also food because I prepare family meals. Of course because I suffer from chronic fatigue and chest pains things get done in short bursts. Because I am blessed with all of this, I cannot apply for welfare, food stamps, etc. I am only applying for AHCCCS health care because of my recent hospital bill. I realize there are many who are not blessed in the fashion that I am and I am willing to let them apply for the welfare and food stamps..

Yes I worked for the man most of my life in the concrete and steel and manufacturing industries and paid taxes except when I worked as a painter and my employer said they were taking taxes out of my paycheck, but pocketed the money and skipped town. I helped to design the steel forms that were used to cast the EPCOT Center and Monorail at Disney World in Fla. I built Steel Heat Treating furnaces for companies all across central and southern Ohio. I did rebar detailing for drainage improvements across the state of Colorado and coordinated with the Corps of Engineers to get them constructed. I ran the annealing furnaces for a large tool mfg providing tools to Sears and NAPA. I am no stranger to manual or mental labor. I am just too ill to do the manual portion for more than three hours at a time without napping.

I moderate forums online for 3D Modeling and UV Mapping for my fifty dollars per month. I used to moderate more forums for much more money, but the economy caused some websites I worked at to close down. I am trying to start my own business working from home doing 3D Modeling and UV Mapping, but it is tough going.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 02:50 AM
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I see people here pushing the "free" health care they have in their country.

Nothing is "free"


America, if you think health care is expensive now, just wait till it is "free".



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by Xiamara
 


THANK YOU!!!!!! Someone finally said that this free healthcare # still sucks. My fiances cousin moved to canada (shes moving back to the us this year) but she found out she had AVD basically your heart valves regurgitate blood. She had one "free" operation to fix it which they botched had a second open heart surgery to fix 2 tares whichin a few months and now guess watch free healthcare people. She lives in canada, is a canadian citizen and shes getting bills! Health care is not free and when it is its of lesser quality. Id rather pay and know I get something than "trust" a government, and by no means am I rich I just a blue collar USA peasant.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by mishigas
 


Thank you mishigas



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:30 AM
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You shuda said, "me a no speeka ingles". The bi-lingual billing coordinator would have hooked you up with all of the proper free medical government paperwork to fill out.

edit on 30-12-2010 by deviantamerican because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 


Just think. It cost my Aunt to be transported from my house, to 3 towns over doing the speed limit. She ended up only having a low oxygen count (she's a smoker.) For the point of the EMS arriving at my house, evaluating the situation, taking a person out on a stretcher, then transporting them for facility care cost's about $1,000 NO MATTER THE SITUATION. based on where you live is the main factor in which you are charged for medical bills. I am in Connecticut and that is why it cost $1000 for a transport from Home to Hospital, no matter what the situation is. I have to bare the burden of being pulled over for medical help when I don't want it, even if its for a stubbed toe. I do not have a choice. I can even use 911 to cause other people hardship financial wise just by using a pay phone and calling 911 for EMS service saying blah blah blah at (such address) is choking!. I have been charged 3 medical bills for ambulance transports that was never seen from my house hold. How rude for someone who dislikes me to call 911 and make **** up just so they can cause me money... What a sad sad system we have.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by mishigas
I see people here pushing the "free" health care they have in their country.

Nothing is "free"


America, if you think health care is expensive now, just wait till it is "free".
I agree. However, if you're out of a job with no money and your wife is dying, you'd jump on it...
Be REAL.

Of course you won't. You have an agenda.

Do you see how the government works?



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:39 AM
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Here is something for the Op to look at.

www.youtube.com...

This is what cost you $11,000 -$1000 just for the visit?
edit on 30-12-2010 by MITSwagger because: visit



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:11 AM
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I am in England and would not trade the NHS for anything!

Over here the NHS comes in for some very harsh press, but this is just our natural instinct to improve what we already have.

In 2007 I was ill in bed for a week solid (the week leading up to christmas). I could not keep any food or liquid down and was dehydrated to say the least. On christmas day I was rushed to hospital and had all sorts of tests ran on me and samples taken to discover what strange viral infection had hit me. I was in hospital for 3 nights and had 2 MRI scans plus lots of drips and drugs. In the end the results were "inconclusive" and the best they could tell me was that it was a viral infection but an unknown one lol, but I was assured that the mri scans came back normal and as the symptoms had gone I was discharged.

Now I dread to think how much this would have raped me had I been in the US!!! but thankfully it was all free and I will never complain about our NHS system ever again


EDIT: addition - Just thought I would let those of you saying "it isn't free" know that - of course it is not free, you pay for through taxes, but I would still get free health care if I was out of work... its a bloody good system and you have no argument on that.

There are still private hospitals that have a lot more money spent on them and if you are in a position to pay for it then of course you will get the very best care possible, but that does not mean the NHS here in the uk is useless or that it is pointless, just means you don't get left to die if you have no money.... call me human but that is how I think it should be!
edit on 30/12/10 by Flying Sorcerer because: (no reason given)

edit on 30/12/10 by Flying Sorcerer because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:16 AM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by cybertroy

"Stay the hell away from doctors, you'll live a lot longer that way."




Thank you for posting, I had never really thought about it that way. On a related yet unrelated note, if it weren't for doctors I would have died when I was 7, again when I was 15, and yet again last year when I was 26. Spiritually it makes me wonder if doctors playing God is a bad thing as it seems God has been trying to "off" me for years, never the less this is something new to ponder.

Star for you.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldDisorder

God has been trying to "off" me for years

Star for you.


And a star for you friend seeing as how God has been trying to get rid of you for years.


Give 'em hell.
edit on 30-12-2010 by In nothing we trust because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:26 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 


My deepest condullences for your missfortunes, but I wish you good fortune. Sounds like you might have to go public with this information, miight be benificial to your finacial problems. I think contacting your local news station might help your dissposition. hope things get better for you.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Ah, blogs! Conclusive proof of your position and totally undeniable to anyone who disagrees with you.

You really are scouring the bottom of the proverbial barrel for those stories, aren't you? Shall I go and dig up reams of stories about medical mal-practice and incompetance from the US? No, because it is quite pointless. Doctors are human and humans make mistakes, even in the "great" USA.


Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
Health care should be free PERIOD.
Really? So if health care is free, who pays the doctors, nurses etc..? Who pays for their schooling and training?


Oh dear Lord. I covered this one off already, yet it's trotted out still. Doctors and Nurses in the UK are among the best paid in the world! The equipment in the NHS is as good as you will see in any US hospital. The training they went through to become doctors was funded by the State, to be paid back later by the graduate, at a maximum cost of £6000 a year (soon to rise to £9000 but still far less than what the US school system charges).

reply to post by Mirthful Me
 


You know, for a so-called "super-mod", I would expect far less of the condescending and insulting behaviour. The post you're replying to is nothing like what you allude to and you have deliberately mis-read it, then implied that Finland is "barbaric" and "3rd world". It is anything but! Then again, I doubt you have even been there, or even left the USA all together..


Originally posted by RichardA
Wonky ground? You don't see the difference in a company raising premiums to cover their costs and a government legislatiing my actions and choices. If I don't like the deal with the insurance company I have options. Tell me what options have I when the government tells me I HAVE to do something.


Then you woefully misunderstand the system I am defending. Who said in the NHS you don't have a choice? You do, actually. You can pick and choose your doctor, your hospital, you can even go abroad at the NHS expense if a particular specialist is a better choice.

Then, to add a further layer of greatness, most UK employers offer free private cover and one can also purchase your own from BUPA ir other providers. So, for example, if you have a dodgy knee like me, you can either elect to use the NHS and maybe wait a month for the op, or go private and have it done tomorrow.


Originally posted by RichardA
Why is that choice taken from me? For some feel good humanistic crap? Please try someone else.


It's not though, stop being a tool.


Originally posted by RichardA
I grew up in the governmental system and its a complete and total failure to the people it is supposed to help. It creates a dependency mindset which in turn creates an entitlment attitude which eventually blows up in your face because those who work and do the right things WILL get fed up.


Really? Where did you grow up?


Originally posted by RichardA
Take care of yourself and stop expecting others to provide you with everything you want free of charge.


Again, you misunderstand (not sure if deliberately or whether you just have a comprehension problem). The NHS is not "free", it is bought and paid for by the people of the UK, for the people of the UK. And neither am I or anyone else advocating everything be free of charge, but it is regarded as the most fundamental service a Government that is truly looking after it's nations interests, not those of corporate masters, can provide.


Originally posted by RichardA
I am so sick of "I deserve this or that just because i'm a person." BullS**T. The only thing ever promised to you by the constitution is an equal opportunity. It never promises equal results nor should it ever try to create that. Use your opportunities and take your risks, be a man. You might actually feel good about your accomplishments.


To be honest mate, you can preach "constitution" this and that as much as you like, but I wouldn't even wipe my arse with it as it's worth nothing, even to most Americans it seems.


Originally posted by TheManipulator
Well said Mr Freak. It about time people actually started to act responsibly when it comes to their lives, credit and what they can afford. If you can not afford it upfront, DO NOT GET IT!!!


What a rediculous statement. Following this logic to it's conclusion, you would agree with the following statement.

"If you can't afford cancer, don't get it!" or "If you don't have enough money, don't have a heart attack!"

See how daft you sound?


Originally posted by TheManipulator
These people complain when they have their bill REDUCED?????????????????? Madness. Why are so many people on ATS unemployed?????????? Or cant afford anything? I wonder if there is a link between anti-government and being a loser?


Oh really? I am employed and have been since I left school 12 years ago, with only 1 month unemployed during that whole time. I also make in excess of $80,000 a year, have a beautiful missus, 3 wonderful kids, pay my taxes and use the NHS. Nice generalisation there, based on nothing but your own prejudice and ignorance.


Originally posted by proximo
One thing I have to say to this, the US does not have a lot of money, the US, all its states and the UK for that matter are all not only broke they are in levels of debt they can never pay back. .


You misunderstand Government debt. It's all on bonds which are time limited and are always paid back. A Government not paying on it's bonds leads to collapse. Put it this way, if the UK cleared it's budget deficit today, we would be totally debt free in 10 years, when the last Bond matures. Same with every country, even the US! I would go into more detail, but that would be OT.. The UK, France, the US all have plenty of money, it is just spent wrong.


Originally posted by Blaine91555
First, your health care is paid for. It's paid for by your government. Governments except in nations ruled by Dictators have no money themselves. They take it from people who produce wealth by taxing them. Every penny used to pay for your Health Care was taken away from somebody else who earned it. That is how all Entitlements work. Entitlement is a fancy word for Welfare. In this case the people they take the money from by force have no say in the matter. That is the TRUTH.


This is what I don't understand. The main argument against an American NHS is because you "take money from someone else". But in the same breath you won't argue against the Trillion dollars spent on your nations "defence" (such an ironic thing), paying the wages of soldiers, or the Billions spent on dozens of State and Federal agencies employing tens of thousands..so on and so forth..Isn't that too taking someone elses money to pay another?


Originally posted by Blaine91555
Look around you at Greece for instance.


Greece is such an extreme example of a system gone bad with far more extensive and complicated reasons for it than simply "socialism"..


Originally posted by Blaine91555
Second, because of our free market system in the US, we pay for most of the development of procedures, equipment and pharmaceuticals used. We are charged more than you for the same medications and procedures because we are stuck with the cost of developing for instance drugs that are sold in other countries like Canada and Mexico far cheaper. Why is it cheaper there? Because the citizens of another country paid for the research and development of those drugs. More Welfare, only this time from people who don't even live in your countries.


What bollocks!!!

Are you seriously trying to make us believe that the US is the be all and end all when it comes to medical research and drug development? Get over yourself, jesus... Some of the worlds largest Pharma companies are British or European, some of the worlds most cutting edge medical and surgical techniques are pioneered in the UK or Europe!



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
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All of the countries? Are they really? And what countries would these be? Canada? Australia? France? Germany? Sweden? Norway? UK?.. None are bankrupt or even at the "precipice". In fact, the countries with "socialised" healthcare all top the league tables for standards of living and happiness. Go figure.


I guess you, and a few others have been in the dark for quite a while.



Soaring costs force Canada to reassess health model
By Claire Sibonney, ReutersJune 1, 2010

TORONTO - Pressured by an aging population and the need to rein in budget deficits, Canadas provinces are taking tough measures to curb health care costs, a trend that could erode the principles of the popular state-funded system.

Ontario, Canada's most populous province, kicked off a fierce battle with drug companies and pharmacies when it said earlier this year it would halve generic drug prices and eliminate "incentive fees" to generic drug manufacturers.

British Columbia is replacing block grants to hospitals with fee-for-procedure payments and Quebec has a new flat health tax and a proposal for payments on each medical visit — an idea that critics say is an illegal user fee.

And a few provinces are also experimenting with private funding for procedures such as hip, knee and cataract surgery.

It's likely just a start as the provinces, responsible for delivering health care, cope with the demands of a retiring baby-boom generation. Official figures show that senior citizens will make up 25 per cent of the population by 2036.
...


www.ottawacitizen.com...

As to the claim that all Canadians are taken care off by the socialised healthcare...



The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
David Gratzer

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.
...

www.city-journal.org...



French health system gets surgery
Considered the world's best, France's healthcare system could face bankruptcy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.By Peter Ford, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor / May 20, 2004

PARIS
France offers its citizens the best healthcare in the world, and it isn't only the French who will tell you so. The World Health Organization ranks France at the top of its list.

The trouble is, the country cannot afford it. The French public health insurance scheme is heading for a $15.5 billion deficit this year, threatening to bankrupt the system.

"Our health system has gone mad," Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told a parliamentary commission earlier this month. "Profound reforms are urgent."

But as trade unions rally in defense of free healthcare for all, the topic has become the hottest issue on the government's controversial reformist agenda, threatening further unpopularity as European parliamentary elections approach.
...

www.csmonitor.com...

Also last I checked several EU nations had to be bailed out, but I guess according to some it has nothing to do with "socialised healthcare" and in general the "welfare states"?...



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 06:02 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Your post says it all. These problems are largely because of the retiring "baby boom" generation, and therefore are temporary. Thats how demographic transition works. Old people dont grow on trees - once the babyboomers start to pass on, the number of receivers compared to paying people will equaly sharply decrease.




Also last I checked several EU nations had to be bailed out, but I guess according to some it has nothing to do with "socialised healthcare" and in general the "welfare states"?...


These problems were caused by the recession (caused by the FED and US hypomarket policy, not welfare states, they were fine before recession), and also other reasons (Greece - really overgrown state spending far more than it received on taxes for many years, on government employers salaries and their early retirement, not so much on welfare and healthcare).
More responsible welfare states are all right.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 06:07 AM
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Oh and hey, I could keep on searching for more than this but it should sufice.



Canadians sent to U.S. for neonatal care
LISA PRIEST
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Jul. 24, 2007 1:53AM EDT
Last updated Friday, Apr. 03, 2009 10:09AM EDT

Women with high-risk pregnancies in three provinces have been sent at taxpayers' expense to give birth in the United States, where fragile infants spend weeks to months in hospital neonatal intensive-care units.

Expectant mothers from British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario have been sent to four U.S. states, a development some attribute to an increase in the number of premature births, a nursing shortage and a stretched health-care system.

This year, 26 mothers from B.C. have been sent to three hospitals in Washington State; nine patients remain there

today, according to Sarah Plank, spokeswoman for the B.C. Health Ministry.

In Ontario, 10 women with high-risk pregnancies were transferred to U.S. hospitals from April to the end of June, according to Kris Bailey, executive director of CritiCall, an emergency-referral service for physicians in that province. That is one patient more than the entire number Ontario transferred to the United States in fiscal 2006-07. In Alberta, four pregnant women were transferred to Montana this year.

Mothers sent across the border are typically those who have gone into labour before 32 weeks gestation, at which point the premature babies require the highest level of neonatal intensive care. With no beds available in their home province or nearby, expectant mothers are often sent by air ambulance to hospitals in Washington, Montana, Michigan and New York.
...


www.theglobeandmail.com...

If Canadians and people from all over the globe are sent to the U.S. for medical care it must mean all the socialised healthcare around the world are not perfect.

Ah, and one last thing, we have had socialised healthcare in the U.S. for a very long time... The hospitals where this socialised healthcare is practiced are called Veteran's Hospitals.


Substandard Conditions at VA Centers Noted
90% of More than 1,000 Problems Reported Are Routine, Officials Say

By Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 22, 2007

A review by the Department of Veterans Affairs of 1,400 hospitals and other veterans care facilities released yesterday has turned up more than 1,000 reports of substandard conditions -- from leaky roofs and peeling paint to bug and bat infestations -- as well as a smaller number of potential threats to patient safety, such as suicide risks in psychiatric wards.

The investigation, ordered March 7 by VA Secretary Jim Nicholson, found problems such as rugs loaded with bacteria from patient "accidents," ceiling and floor tiles with asbestos that needs to be removed, as well as exposed pipes and other fixtures from which mental patients could hang themselves.
...

www.washingtonpost.com...


BTW, before you all go claimimng "it only happens in the U.S. socialised system"...

www.youtube.com...

Ths is what happens when the socialist system bankrupts a nation, but since in the U.S. we were not having this problem, yet, the socialist elites/feds had to bankrupt the U.S. some other way, including stealing over $13 trillion U.S. dollars, plus the socialised bailouts, and other socialist takeovers. When a president announces the governments of the U.S. and Canada are taking over a PRIVATE COMPANY that is socialism. Heck Chavez has been doing it for a long time now.
edit on 30-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 06:07 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Nationalised health care has nothing to do countries going bankrupt. You cite European countries needing to be bailed out by the IMF. Again, their respective medical systems are not primary contributors to their economic problems. Greece, for example, were dishonest about their sovereign debt when they joined the Euro in the early 2000s. This was a primary reason for the IMF bailout. Bank solvency was a key reason for Ireland experiencing economic problems.

If you are trying to single out nationalised health care as reasons for countries going bankrupt, then you are clutching at straws. I presume the spectre of Communism is filling your mind every time someone suggests using taxes to pay for a national medical system.

Edit: there are plenty of US citizens who cross the border to Mexico for cheaper health care.
edit on 30-12-2010 by LarryLove because: (no reason given)


Edit: a trillion dollar war chest could do an awful lot for your medical system.
edit on 30-12-2010 by LarryLove because: (no reason given)



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