Anti-Christ and the Beast

Can anyone help with these questions?
What is the arguement behind the beast being the same as "the" anti-christ? What is the arguement against 1 john refuting a singular anti-christ?

daved

i have no idea, but if you find the answers let them be known. good luck.

I think this can be derived from Rev 13; the beasts from the sea and earth. They take on human qualities.

But in Daniel, the beasts are symbolic of nations. This would be a good argument against the beast and antichrist being the same. You could say that the antichrist comes from the beast though.

Also, the word "Antichrist" appears only in the letters of John. But I think people consider the "all-powerful beast" and the antichrist the same because the beast was given had much power and blasphemed against god.

As for the multiple antichrists, it's all there in 1 John, so the literal christian is kind of stuck with it.

That's all I know.

[edit on 7/7/2004 by Rev_Godslapper]

Here's what I was taught, although I can in no way say that it is correct. There will be multiple antichrists, as in, anyone who is against Christ is antichrist, but there will be only one true antichrist as is the inbodiment of satan.

As for the beast...the beast seems to be a power, as in a government or maybe even a religion, from which the antichrist comes and gives the antichrist power. I don't think that necessarily means supernatural power, but that the government or religion support him and give him power within the organization. This religion or government, of course, would have enough power that the antichrist would become world reknowned.

Maybe that helps. There a numerous websites which give much better information. I will post again when I find them.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by junknewsie]

Originally posted by junknewsie
Here's what I was taught, although I can in no way say that it is correct. There will be multiple antichrists, as in, anyone who is against Christ is antichrist, but there will be only one true antichrist as is the inbodiment of satan.

This is not true, at least to my knowledge.

There will be only one anti-christ. Many will come in the name of Christ and will deceive. These people who claim to be Jesus are not the AC. The AC will come with all the answers to the world today. This is how he deceives. The beast is more commonly referred to a nation or the Roman Catholic Church.

There is a big difference in these two. It is 3am and Im tired as hell, so I will check back tomorrow with more thoughts, you can also find alot of info and debates within ATS's Search...

According to Paul there are to be many Anti-Christ�s over the years:

�1Jo 2:18 little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. �

Beasts are always supposed to be countries, horns are supposed to be rulers; horns with crowns are literal kings, or countries that once had kings:

�Dan 7:7 after this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.�

From here it depends on which of the schools of prophetic interpretation you accept or are willing to accept. There are three, Historicism (which most protestant reformers originally taught), Futurism (which is the most popular and well known today, and is now accepted by many protestants), or Preterism.

Historicism teaches that the end times began shortly after Christ�s death (around 70 AD, with the fall of Jerusalem) and continues on to this day, culminating in a final ruling super-power that enforces the mark of the beast, and is ruled by one of the anti-Christ�s.

Futurism teaches that the end times comes in the future with a 7 year tribulation period that involves an all powerful anti-Christ that rebuilds the temple in Israel, declares himself God, and causes the mark of the beast to be enforced. Most Christians today seem to accept this one because it is the one that allows for a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Preterism basically teaches the idea is that most or all of the prophecies found in Daniel, Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation have largely been fulfilled in the past in connection with the fall of Jerusalem.

As far as the Anti-Christ and the beast being the same thing, I can only say that this confusion comes from this quote:

�Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.�

I have given you the three schools of thought on end times interpretation, I suggest that you google them up and decide for yourself which one fits your beliefs best, each will give their interpretation as to what they think of each beast and anti-Christ.

This is my first post, and if I stepped on any toes, it was not my intention; I tried to keep this as non-inflammatory as possible while giving a true answer.


[edit on 7/7/2004 by defcon5]

[edit on 7/7/2004 by defcon5]

[edit on 7/7/2004 by defcon5]

Welcome defcon 5. Outstanding first post. This is what we need more of on ATS. You presented the varying viewpoints nicely and left it up to the reader(s) to draw their own conclusions. I was brought up with the Futurism viewpoint but have come to believe in the Historism viewpoint. I feel there have been many, many anti-christs through out history, such as Napoleon, Hitler, etc. I do not believe the world ruling, end times anti Christ to come will be a European or be a Pope. I am more inclined to feel he will originate from a Middle Eastern country or possibly be an Israeli Jew. What better way for an anti Christ to bring on a false peace, which would have to involve the most violatile region of the world, the Middle East, than be an Israeli Jew? He will make the first "true" peace overtures towards Israel's enemies. The Bible also says that he will defile the temple and rule from there. If the anti Christ turns out to be a powerful and charismatic ruler from Israel, then it would be easier for him to take control of the Temple after it is reconstructed. Food for thought, eh?

still no evidence has been shown yet that there is going to be a "singular, almighty and all powerful" anti-christ. let us recap . . . besides there being no calling of the beast "the anti-christ;" the term anti-christ is only used in 1 john and never anywhere else (including revelation). this should clearly show that "anti-christ" is a personal attribute, not a person.


defcon, historicists (i am one) await the 2nd coming. no powerful evil dude, no mark. except that which comes from spiritual servitude to each owns master. thanks for the post though.

daved

Well, thank you both. I am also of the historicist point of view which is why I was walking on EGGSHELLS making this post. If you do want to go back and read the actual ideas behind Historicism from the various protestant reformers, they point VERY clearly to what the first beast was, and as far as I can tell it is EXTREAMLY accurate. Calvin even went so far as to set a HIGHLY accurate date for the rise of the second beast after the first was wounded. The one that would come in as a lamb, but become a dragon, with two horns and no crowns, and would enforce the mark of the beast. He set this date as coming shortly around 1750. The funny thing is that I come from a Lutheran background not a Presbyterian one, yet it still strikes a warning to me, and defiantly hits me close to home.

So without my stating any names what country fit�s the bill:

Came into existence around 1750.
Started as a Christian country, but then starts to change.
Has two Horns, but no crowns. (Two parties or power structures, but no kings)
Becomes the last remaining SUPER-POWER.
Sets up the system (year 200 bug), and enforces the Mark (most likely RFID).

Even writing this sends a shiver up my spine, I actually hope I am wrong on this one.

David, Believe me I am on some of the same path as you, but if you believe in the Bible, you have to accept that there will be a Mark at some point in the not too distant future. It is the one thing that these like minded men of WAY more wisdom then I where waiting for. The system was not in place back then to do it until the invention of the computer. They where also waiting for the falling away and the elimination of the middle class, which would have to be accomplished to pull off such a coop. No there is not going to be an ALL POWERFULL antichrist (in my opinion), I thought I made that clear in the post about historicism, but it will be a country ruled by a man that is AN antichrist. Someone that has to take the rights away from the common middle class man, look out for the elite, and have some excuse to do it��.

Once again I am writing what I see in kind of a cryptic manner so those that are of a like mind can catch it, and it will slide by most of the rest. I really don�t mean to upset anyone, and I know Religious discussions in general are about the best way to do exactly that�.


But does any of this ring any warning bells?

could it be that the beast that comes is the same beast earlier on in rev, who is unleashed, and attacks the world and the people on earth with an army of demons?? It is very graphic in the word, and it has yet to happen. this same beast that ascends from the bottomless pit then kills the 2 witnesses and the trib begins.

different view but one not often heard of today. maybe some beast that was caged after the flood?? from the fallen ones??

The antichrist is a man that will sit on the rebuild Jewish temple in Jerusalem and will proclaim himself to be God, from the ten great world leaders he will lure 3 of them to use his mark that will be known as the mark of the beast.



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I know who the antichrist is.......
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: andthis is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time

So the question should be, Where is Jesus today?

[edit on 8-7-2004 by ab2tw]

ab2tw

The myth of the beast will be revealed to the church in dreams and prophesies as today none has fulfilled.

Just a friendly reminder but in ATS bold letters are considered rude.

NOt trying to be rude, just trying to stress a point.

antichrst as revealed to paul and recorded in the bible is not onef individual but a spirit that is currently on many individuals.

The spirit of antichrist is in any who say that Jesus Christ is not God, and that He is not here currently in the flesh.

The quotes are taken directly from a k.j.v. bible.
Please show where it will be revealed in dreams......

study roman history and then read this. it will scare the crap out of you.
some info on "the beasts"

where did you get that info on calvin? i highly doubt calvin contradicted augustine on this topic, but then again i am newly reformed and learning.

btw, i am amillenialist at this point.

daved

Dude, what if we were living is something like the matrix and the anti-christ and jesus would be like neo and agent smith. Eventually jesus would talk to the controller of the matrix. But, God or the Source would exist outside of the Matrix.

the beast is an alternative name for the same person the antichrist
however in away you have a point in descrepantcies of singularity
the way it goes is the antichrist and his false prophet shall be cast alive into the pit in end days and the antichrist is supposed to be born to this earth much the same way Jesus was you will find that the fact that this antichrist is born this way is one of the parts of the deception he will use in making his claim to be the true Messiah see it is beleived by many that even the devil can come in the appearance of an angel of light to deceive you by saying things you know to be true in the bible he can quote scripture as well and make it benefit himself through deception

Originally posted by Dasher

where did you get that info on calvin? i highly doubt calvin contradicted augustine on this topic, but then again i am newly reformed and learning.

btw, i am amillenialist at this point.

daved

I do apologize I got my quotes/people mixed up. It was actually from John Wesley founder of the Methodist church. Supposedly it is written in his �New Testament with Explanatory Notes� circa 1754. This is not the only place I have read this, but here is a link that I came across once before on the topic:

www.endtimeinsights.com...

I have looked at this site before, and had some pretty good stuff to say.


www.historicism.com... might have some more info on the topic.

I�ll have to look up the rest, and read your link when I get home from work in a couple of hours. Gotta run and finish up here.....


[edit on 7/9/2004 by defcon5]

the spirit of antichrist as you described it from Paul in the word applies to every faith that rejects jesus as son of god. so islam, jews, buddists and pagans to name a few are all under the spirit of antichrist.

what you said about the matrix is interesting, because in Daniel it says that the Messiah, Jesus "moves" towards the "ANCIENT ONE" which is the original Creator God. So in a way he does approach God. It is in there somewhere in Daniel!!

Finally it is true that satan appears as an angel of light etc but satan has to ask for permision before doing that. All the power the evil one has comes from?? GOD. In job the devil was restricted by God on what he could and could not do to tempt Job. I believe that even if satan tries to deceive people, appears as an angel of light etc, God will still offer the truth, no one will be completely deceived their whole lives. God would not allow that to happen without giving an alternative option.No one is tempted beyond that which they can handle. And where do you draw the line with Satan appearing as an angel of light? If the devil can come in Gods name?? Claim Christ came in the flesh is the messiah, then he can deceive anyone. Yet the bible says to test the spirits and that those that dont profess that Jesus is the Son of God , who came in the flesh ...that same spirit is of the antichrist spirit..which is from the devil. But I still believe God will be there to help those being deceived, because it would be unfair to let some people be totally deceived, God is just and faithful.

This is scheduled as a topic, a bit unusual for the website, for the August 1 Bible Code Newsletter published by www.onealclan.com, The Bible Code Website.

No charge for subscriptions. But as a short explanation, "Antichrist" is not mentioned in Revelations. "The Beast" is the term used to describe the person leading the government in the End of Days and many Christians assume the "Beast" of 1John and 2John to be the same as described in Revelations because of the similarity of descriptions.

1 and 2John seems to imply that there are several antichrists at different times in history. And in Revelation the beast is described a hydra-headed (many heads). This is symbolism of course and is assumed to mean one of two things: (1) the "beast is more than one person, or (2) the beast is far more intelligent than ordinary mortals. Both may be true.

Daved wrote, "Can anyone help with these questions?
What is the arguement behind the beast being the same as "the" anti-christ? What is the arguement against 1 john refuting a singular anti-christ? "

Researcher 01A, www.onealclan.com