What does a 33 degree freemason know?

Originally posted by browsey
The point I was attempting to make was that it is far easier to prove something than to disprove something. Using your example, 'Prove Santa exists.' for this proof would be needed of his existence 'somewhere'. However when it is re-phrased as "Prove Santa Doesn't exist' means one would have to search through all of existence in this realm and wherever else to disprove it, despite it being however ridiculous of a claim.

Exactly. So when I say "Prove that, as you claim, men have jumped straight to 33°" that should be FAR easier for you, making the claim, to do than me to "prove that men have never jumped straight to 33°". Right?

Likewise, you who claimed that Blair was a 33° Mason clearly must be doing so based on some sort of proof that he actually is. You even admit it's unreasonable for you to ask me to prove that he's not. You made the claim of a positive. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Originally posted by browsey
Saying, "no its not", and shooting something down without any evidence yourself, is merely doing the exact same that TPTB do. It is much easier to prove something than it is to disprove something, so rather than getting off on thinking you can shoot someones question down with just a "No" or "Prove it" well challenge you o disprove it.

Right, so you admit that you're using TPTB tactics asking me to disprove YOUR claims, when you know that proving a negative is impossible?

reply to post by JoshNorton


spelling it out, i am not stating facts! i was purely hypothesising and speculating, look deeper than trying to break down what i say into it all being wrong and why not focus on us having a discussion about it, my point was if he were a mason, degree irrelevant, how difficult would it be for it to be hidden and covered up for the reasons i presented above.

reply to post by browsey


And if you'd said that from the beginning, I'd have no argument. But your first post in this thread made two specific, unwavering claims, which you now acknowledge you shouldn't have made, or would have worded differently given the chance to revise them.

If you claim a positive that I believe to be false, I will ask you to show me the foundations of your assertion. If they hold merit, they may change my own views on the topic. I'm fully willing to admit when I'm proven wrong, and I'm always open to learning new things.

But bombshells like "You can be given the 33rd degree from the 3rd without need to obtain 4-32" (direct quote from your post), and "Tony Blair, the apparent figurehead of the labour party, is himself a 33rd degree mason" are clearly not coached as hypothesis or speculation.

My intent in arguing the matter with you is to urge you to take ownership of your words and convictions, to give you a stronger stance even if it's not one with which I agree. I'm tired of people one these forums repeating half-assed claims based on some YouTube video they saw, or some picture of a handshake. I enjoy well founded, reasonable & logical debate, and become frustrated when most of the posts on ATS fail to rise to any level of intellectual credulity.

So let us start over.

my point was if he were a mason, degree irrelevant, how difficult would it be for it to be hidden and covered up for the reasons i presented above

That's a good question, and one we can certainly build on.

To even become a "high level" Mason, such a politician would still have to take the 3 regular degrees in a Masonic lodge acting under a charter issued to them by a Grand Lodge. If we're talking about political figures in England, then they would, by necessity, be members of the UGLE. This cannot happen in a vacuum, and it takes a certain amount of time and work.

Another hypothetical to consider would be, was he a Mason before he became a public figure? Or did he join the fraternity after he was already in office? If the former, then commoners would have sat in lodge with him at some point or another. SOMEBODY would know he was a brother. If it was the latter, wouldn't it actually be harder to get to lodge unnoticed? Particularly when one is hounded by photographers, journalists & the like?

reply to post by JoshNorton


understood and agreed im too used to my crazed debating rantings which sometimes without my own knowledge can lead me to "go off on one" if you will.

About when if he did, join, if he did, i believe it would have been during his time at oxford as per usual with many high-flying people who join societies albeit masonry, skull and bones or bullington, it was no uncommon for these people to join during their higher education process, however again, this is mere speculation

reply to post by JoshNorton


understood and agreed im too used to my crazed debating rantings which sometimes without my own knowledge can lead me to "go off on one" if you will.

About when if he did, join, if he did, i believe it would have been during his time at oxford as per usual with many high-flying people who join societies albeit masonry, skull and bones or bullington, it was no uncommon for these people to join during their higher education process, however again, this is mere speculation

reply to post by browsey

But you were using his claim to say one can go straight from the 3rd degree to the 33rd degree. Once claims is not evidence. That was my point.

Taking what we know, he was not a recognized Mason. He supposedly received the 33rd degree in Mexico, but there is no record of that existing today.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

this being a quote i keep at mind whenever disregarding information as we really do not know, whether he is or isnt, the only people to know truly will be him, and his brothers in his lodge, which if he had one, would be very secretive and higher than any form or freemasonry anybody attempting to work their way up the ranks, could achieve.

No offense, but this is a fairly innaccurate statement. You're trying to make Crowley, and his Lodge, out to be more important than other Lodges. That's not how it works. Sounds a little pretentious to me.

Swearing an oath in Freemasonry does not void our duties and responsibilities outside the Craft. In fact we are charged to not devout so much time to Freemasonry that other things in life fall by the wayside. We are also charged to be good citizens in the discharge of our civic duties.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by browsey

 

But you were using his claim to say one can go straight from the 3rd degree to the 33rd degree. Once claims is not evidence. That was my point.

No offense, but this is a fairly innaccurate statement. You're trying to make Crowley, and his Lodge, out to be more important than other Lodges. That's not how it works. Sounds a little pretentious to me.

Swearing an oath in Freemasonry does not void our duties and responsibilities outside the Craft. In fact we are charged to not devout so much time to Freemasonry that other things in life fall by the wayside. We are also charged to be good citizens in the discharge of our civic duties.

I cant see once where i have mentioned Crowley to be 'more important' than any other mason, in fact not have i mentioned him being a mason, only that he claimed to be one. Let alone whatever lodge he belonged to, i didn not mentioned that lodges superiority to any other, so i cant see how im being pretentious as i didnt mention the above.

I understand that it would not want you to compromise yourself, or anything else, however if one gained a position in which they were your as i believe the masons call it, your 'masters in the shadows' you must agree we me that it is possible, not fact, but possible that if one obtained high ranking status' both in the government and the worlds oldest and largest (To what we know) secret society, the positions could be used corruptly and cause people to be wary, hence the need to cover up or hide ones status within a lodge. All of the above is merely me playing the devils advocate if you will and asking those questions that seem to me are possible and if executed correctly plausible.

I cant see once where i have mentioned Crowley to be 'more important' than any other mason, in fact not have i mentioned him being a mason, only that he claimed to be one. Let alone whatever lodge he belonged to, i didn not mentioned that lodges superiority to any other, so i cant see how im being pretentious as i didnt mention the above.

You do have a short memory:

this being a quote i keep at mind whenever disregarding information as we really do not know, whether he is or isnt, the only people to know truly will be him, and his brothers in his lodge, which if he had one, would be very secretive and higher than any form or freemasonry anybody attempting to work their way up the ranks, could achieve.

reply to post by KSigMason


*facepalm* A dubious misunderstanding, i was talking about tony blairs 'alleged' membership, not crowley haha, utter mistake but still, it is an unknown thing and truly only he (Tony Blair NOT Crowley ) and his fellow lodge brother will know, if he were.

Originally posted by KSigMason

Taking what we know, he was not a recognized Mason. He supposedly received the 33rd degree in Mexico, but there is no record of that existing today.

In his autobiography, Crowley mentions that he granted a charter to an individual in Mexico City in the year 1900 for a Gnostic church. In return, that fellow signed to him a patent of the 33rd degree. This patent was obviously superfluous, as Crowley was not then a Mason (he received the three Craft degrees 4 years later). Later still, Yarker conferred the degrees of Memphis and Mitzraim on him.

Tony Blair is not a Freemason.

reply to post by Masonic Light

And Yarker was eventually expelled for his push of the Primitive Rite?

Originally posted by KSigMason
And Yarker was eventually expelled for his push of the Primitive Rite?

Not expelled, although he resigned his membership from the UGLE, and established a Craft Lodge under the Rite of Memphis. Naturally, this lodge was not recognized (nor did it seem to have more than a couple of members, and probably never even met).

In his serial "The Equinox", Crowley publishes some fake minutes from some fictional meetings of this lodge (with himself listed as Grand Secretary General). They're pretty comical.

Originally posted by sphinx551
reply to post by Cassius666

 

A 33rd degree mason won't know the stuff Hidden-Hand and Illuminator13 know.
That's for sure.

Here, I found the list. The 33rd is way down the list..

The 33 first degrees are the same with the Scottish Rite (for the list, click here). The other degrees are:

* 34° Knight of Scandinavia
* 35° Knight of the Temple
* 36° Sublime Negociant
* 37° Knight of Shota (Sage of Truth)
* 38° Sublime Elect of Truth (The Red Eagle)
* 39° Grand Elect of the Aeons
* 40° Sage Savaistre (Perfect Sage)
* 41° Knight of the Arch of Seven Colours
* 42° Prince of Light
* 43° Sublime Hermetic Sage (Hermetic Philosopher)
* 44° Prince of the Zodiac
* 45° Sublime Sage of the Mysteries
* 46° Sublime Pastor of the Huts
* 47° Knight of the Seven Stars
* 48° Sublime Guardian of the Sacred Mount
* 49° Sublime Sage of the Pyramids
* 50° Sublime Philosopher of Samothrace
* 51° Sublime Titan of the Caucasus
* 52° Sage of the Labyrinth
* 53° Knight or Sage of the Phoenix
* 54° Sublime Scalde
* 55° Sublime Orphic Doctor
* 56° Pontiff, of Sage of Cadmia
* 57° Sublime Magus
* 58° Sage, or Prince Brahmine
* 59° Sublime Sage, or Grand Pontiff of Ogygia
* 60° Sublime Guardian of the Three Fires
* 61° Sublime Unknown Philosopher
* 62° Sublime Sage of Eulisis
* 63° Sublime Kawi
* 64° Sage of Mythras
* 65° Guardian of Sanctuary – Grand Installator
* 66° Grand Architect of the Mysterious City – Grand Consecrator
* 67° Guardian of the Incommunicable Name – Grand Eulogist
* 68° Patriarch of Truth
* 69° Knight or Sage of the Golden Branch of Eleusis
* 70° Prince of Light, or Patriarch of the Planispheres
* 71° Patriarch of the Sacred Vedas
* 72° Sublime Master of Wisdom
* 73° Patriarch, or Doctor of the Sacred Fire
* 74° Sublime Master of the Stoka
* 75° Knight Commandel of the Lybic Chain
* 76° Interpreter of Hieroglyphics, of Patriarch of Isis
* 77° Sublime Knight or Sage Theosopher
* 78° Grand Pontiff of the Thebiad
* 79° Knight, or Sage of the Redoubtable Sada
* 80° Sublime Elect of the Sanctuary of Mazias
* 81° Intendent Regulator, or Patriarch of Memphis
* 82° Grand Elect of the Temple of Midgard
* 83° Sublime Elect of the Valley of Oddy
* 84° Patriarch or Doctor of the Izeds
* 85° Sublime Sage, or Knight of Kneph
* 86° Sublime Philosopher of the Valley of Kab
* 87° Sublime Prince of Masonry
* 88° Grand Elect of the Sacred Curtain
* 89° Patriarch of the Mystic City
* 90° Sublime Master of the Great Work
* 91° Grand Defender
* 92° Grand Catechist
* 93° Regulator General
* 94° Prince of Memphis, or Grand Administrator
* 95° Grand Conservator
* 96° Grand and Puissant Sovereign of the Order
* 97° Deputy International Grand Master
* 98° International Grand Master
* 99° Grand Hierophant
*100° Disciple of the Divine Law
*101° Prefect of the Divine Law
*102° Knight of the Divine Law
*103° Grand Commander of the Divine Law
*104° Prince of the Divine Law
*105° Priest of the Divine Law
*106° Bishop of the Divine Law
*107° Grand Pontiff of the Divine Law
*108° Apprentice Architect of the Divine Law
*109° Fellow Architect of the Divine Law
*110° Master Architect of the Divine Law
*111° Sublime Architect of the Divine Law
*112° Twice Begotton of the Sacred Light
*113° Grand Architect of The Universe

So what could the 33rd know about all these other grades?

reply to post by Agoyahtah


Source? Some of those are probably Memphis/Mizraim degrees, but I thought that rite stopped with 97° or 99°…

reply to post by Masonic Light

Thanks for the clarification.

reply to post by Agoyahtah

The Rite of Memphis & Misraim is not recognized in the US. I believe the Grand Orient of Italy is the only recognized Masonic body that practices this Ancient and Primitive Rite. In the US, the Grand College of Rites has authority over the Rites of Memphis & Misraim, but they only study it as a defunct, irregular degree system. But the Rites of Memphis & Misraim usually stops at the 99th degree.

A 33rd Degree Freemason Knows That You Have To Start From The 4th Degree Scottish Rite And Work Your Way Up To The 33rd!

Then... You Know What A York Rite Does Not!

reply to post by Pinocchio

Hey! What's this picking on the York Rite?

reply to post by KSigMason


NO! No I Am Not! Sorry... just thought thats what the answer to the thread topic question is.

reply to post by Masonic Light