Should "Creationism" be considered a sign of insanity?

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posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


You put as much faith into science as we put into God.

The problem here is not a question of God's existence.
Instead, it's an unwillingness to change ones sinful nature.
Simply, you don't WANT God to exist, that way you won't feel condemned and you can keep sinning, but I have news for you.
God says to you "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (Rom. 2:15)

If you can find some "impermissible evidence" (I put that in quotes because I have searched deeply for it with a neutral stance) that God doesn't exist, then you have your excuse to keep living the way you want and not the way God wants. You reject him inside your heart.

That soft voice speaking to you when you see a newborn baby, or witness something spectacular, unexplainable. That is God. And some people have hardened their hearts to His voice. I promise if you repent of whatever sin is keeping you from Him, He will forgive you, in fact He promises it! (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

edit on 5-12-2010 by freedish because: REPENT OR PERISH!!




posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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Sparkle - so that's awfully funny that you put up the Futurama episode because it points out that the only reasonable explanation is evolution with an assist, in our case from aliens, in Futurama's case, also from aliens - ones which were human and not God, but we're seen as God against their will, when they were actually just technologically advanced. But our universe is most certainly conscious and geared towards creation, if you believe that creationists should be labelled as crazy, then we should also label strict evolutionists as crazy. It's quite clear that evolution, and disasters, takes place in spurts and cycles, I say the only obvious reasons for this is watchful aliens upgrading us, after creating us and screwing everything up and most of them leaving, and the fact that "spiritual" energy moves throughout the universe. This energy effects us and our sun greatly, we know that being pointed towards the center of the galaxy heightens psychic abilities. It's like the Mayan calender, the energy comes in patterns and those patterns are large and small, it's like the first through fifth world situation, we get a chance, if we screw it up we get readjusted and try it again until we've learned our lesson, we've luckily learned it and don't have to endure starting over, but instead we are evolving upwards. This coming planetary change which will propel us into the higher dimensions like our former "Gods", is a great example that evolution involves many factors, not just mutations and the environment. Sentient beings are all guided, they get occasional upgrades to technology or they get it taken away, they gain spiritual knowledge and they lose their natural spiritual abilities. It's all a big game of Free Will, we know the parameters, we know the players, we know the events, but we don't know how everyone will act, just the probabilities. Once you realize that Source has no time then it's quite easy to see how everything could be planned and guided, there are just as many entities who don't incarnate as entities who incarnate and learn their "lessons", this is because they're helping and assisting us "sentient" beings, they also learn their own lessons. Everything is guided, the good and the bad, it's all cycles and it's all karmicly related, it's unimaginably complex and it's far more than just evolution versus creationism. You're thread does nothing but further divide and polarize, it's like an argument about whether Christianity or Islam is correct, well the answer is that both of them are wrong. There are plenty of pieces that are correct, but neither are completely correct. Creationism should also be referred to as Christian Creationism because their idea is far different than some other views that could be considered Creationism. Creationism could mean that Source got bored and split into entities and lowered itself to allow for physicality and duality and used laws to make Creation, it is a conscious part of everything and has given some of its parts the job to incarnate as an angel into the Universe. One of the tools that this Creator uses is evolution, which is brought on by many factors, DNA being the most important. So there is Creationism without the Hebrew God, one far more similar to something Buddhists would think. You try to make it out that anyone who thinks a divine entity had something to do with our Universe being created and maintained should be labelled as "crazy". Well I say someone who thinks that this Universe can exist without divine creation and guidance is far "CRAZIER" than even someone who thinks we're the only intelligent life in the universe. Stop falling into the polarization, try to realize that the answer usually lies between, it's one of the ways that TPTB divide us while also keeping us ignorant to the truth, if we're arguing whether the flying spaghetti monster created everything or if a grand cosmic accident/misstep created everything, then neither side learns the truth and the argument keeps us further enslaved by TPTB.

Also, how do you feel that you're labelled a terrorist for not supporting the Federal government, I know I don't like it. So if you don't like being mislabeled or considered "dangerous" or "inferior", then you probably shouldn't do the same thing to other people. They can't help that they've been horribly misled, they can only hope to find someone who can help them change their minds, calling them crazy doesn't work, laughing at their naivety is fine though, but you must realize, that you are also naive to many truths as well, you're just less naive, I don't mean that in a bad way, we all start out as naive. This post would be a good example of pointing out some of the flaws to help them question things, but calling them crazy turns them off to new information immediately. I can't stand that my parents go to church, but I usually just laugh at them and point out the flaws in their religion, but I don't consider them crazy, I consider them to have been grossly misinformed since birth and it's indocrinated them past the point of return. It's like people who like the horrendous rap music that's popular, these people really think this is the best kind of music, they're not crazy, they just have terrible taste and discernment, these are the same people who would hate old school hip hop (which I love). This distate of rap fans for the original, the hip hop, are like Christians who think that pagans should be burned or are the devil work, without realizing how much their religion has stolen from them, or the fact that the only real Christians were those pagans who followed Jesus' teachings, not the monsters who religionized it, or in this metaphor, made it mainstream. TPTB have done a great job of making us settle with less, but you must realize that once you break out of that nonsense, you can't call everyone else crazy now because most of us have been in that "crazy" before, but we had enough objectivity and common sense to realize where we went wrong. So don't think of them as crazy, just think of them as pre-sane.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:09 PM
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Creationism isn't ignorance.

I believe God CREATED life to EVOLVE. Sounds logical to me.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by newBodyoldSoul
 


There's evidence for evolution, there's none for the existence of god or that this magical being created life.

~



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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There's no evidence for either. Theory is not evidence nor fact.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Beavis
There's no evidence for either. Theory is not evidence nor fact.


if your going to post a reply, do try to add to the conversation. There is mountains of evidence for evolution, there is no evidence for creationism.

Playing the "dumb blonde" on a internet forum trying to deny ignorance is not a merit. Perhaps 4chan is more your style.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by SincerelySarcastic
Sparkle - so that's awfully funny that you put up the Futurama episode because it points out that the only reasonable explanation is evolution with an assist, in our case from aliens, in Futurama's case, also from aliens - ones which were human and not God, but we're seen as God against their will, when they were actually just technologically advanced.


Was a interesting futurama actually, still, the professor was not a god...it actually was just a cosmic accident even in that case.

But, I am actually open to that specific version of "creationism", aka, the very first self replicating organism, because that is the theory part still. However, like the clip states, just because you haven't found it yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist..so I would pose such discussions about that initial replicating microbe under speculation either way, be it a slow movement of amino acids, or an escaped alien microbe that took hold.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by newBodyoldSoul
Creationism isn't ignorance.

I believe God CREATED life to EVOLVE. Sounds logical to me.


God evolved from cosmic dust and magnetic fields...therefore evolution wins. Sounds logical to me



sounding logical to you does not mean its logical...often "logic" is a catch all word for not knowing all the facts, or being intellectually lazy.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by Whyhi
 


There's plenty proof of God, just walk outside and appreciate Earth. I am a product of Mother Earth, one of it's CREATIONs. I therefore refer to God as Her, since I am Her child. I've been able, through the capacity given to me by God to understand Her process of EVOLUTION.

I'm no bible thumping Jesus freak. I hate religion. But I will never deny God. Regardless of what you have to say. The quote in your signature tells me your stance on this situation.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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I think any thought which isn't your own is a form of insanity.

2nd.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

The problem with this whole argument comes down to the holy grail of PROOF.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. PROOF is the amount of evidence it takes to convince someone to believe something to the point of conviction.

While there is no PROOF of a God or gods. There is some amount of evidence in the form of written documentation spanning thousands of pages and thousands of years, that a God, or gods, exist. We have written testimony from many sources as to what they saw, and/or their personal experience with an entity they know as God. So to some people, there are enough witnesses, documentation, and personal experience to justify their faith in a being they know as God and creator.

While there is no PROOF that evolution is an undeniable fact. There is some amount of evidence, in the form of written documentation, spanning thousands of pages, over more than a hundred years, from many sources, that testify to what they saw, and/or their personal experiences, garnered from their experiments and obversations. So to some people, there are enough witnesses, documentation, and personal experience, to justify their faith in a scientific theory that we physically evolved into what we are today.

Now. Here is why I say there is no PROOF, and both are faith based. Both are based on living and dead witnesses we must believe are honest and unimpeachable. Both are based on documentation we must believe is as unimpeachable as the aforementioned witnesses. Both are based on personal experiences from the above witnesses. Whether that is in the lab. Or whether that is in the church, synagogue, or what have you.

Obviously, there are some things a person can do for themselves to gain more convincing evidence of their belief. Depending on your means, you can recreate certain experiments to see if the results can be repeated. And if the result actually has any merit in strengthening the evidence. Some things can be evidenced by simple obversation. Is the moon there? Yes, because I can see it. Can I show evidence there are other sizeable planetary bodies besides earth in space? Yes. I can rent or purchase a telescope to monitor them. Can i prove 3.14 is a viable calculation aid? Yes. And so on. But there are some things we must take another's word for, and this is where debates like these spin out of control.

The fact still remains. PROOF still comes down to a trust of the source, and the amount of evidence you need to be convinced, and convicted, that something is a given for you. And we all know, that both religion and science have been caught in lies and scandals in the past. There will always be those who play on the gullibility of a public who refuses to use their critical faculties, and instead, pick a side, and defend it religiously to the point of death. Whether that be the church of science, or the church of "your god here". It still boils down to faith.

There are religious zealots in science and in churches.
edit on 5-12-2010 by Klassified because: Correction



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:46 PM
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Are you serious? Your going to tell me that observations made of fossils explains why we are what we are. I don't care either way. The truth is nobody knows for sure one way or another. Sure animals have evolved over the centuries. Does that explain anything ? No.


edit on 5-12-2010 by Beavis because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
While there is no PROOF of a God or gods. There is some amount of evidence in the form of written documentation spanning thousands of pages and thousands of years, -snip

Witness testimony, of course every witness says something different, God is a snake, God is a great wolf, God is Jesus, Someone dreamed of God and went to heaven, Someone else dreamed and went to the river sticks, Someone said they went to hell literally, someone said they went to valhalla and met thor, etc...ya..everynight I have "testimony"...its called dreams.
Lets see that stand up in court



While there is no PROOF that evolution is an undeniable fact. There is some amount of evidence, in the form of written documentation, spanning thousands of pages, over more than a hundred years, from many sources, that testify to what they saw, and/or their personal experiences, garnered from their experiments and obversations.

Your forgetting radiometric data, BONES, a clear demonstration of generational mutations, cellular comparability and mutations, current ongoing documentations of mutations, etc etc etc.



and both are faith based. Both are based on living and dead witnesses we must believe are honest and unimpeachable.

Actually...science doesn't care what the species they are exploring said or didn't say...they do however care about the age of the bones. Actually, in evolution, there is very little talk..it was a philosophy and theory 150 years ago, now its pretty much all scientific understandings and deeper explorations based on new breakthroughs and findings.

To equate the two is insulting...like me saying there is just as much evidence for a car as there is for a flying carpet.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Now, to address the title of this thread.

No, they aren't insane. Well, not all of them. Sure, some of them like Kent Hovind, Ken Hamm, Dembski, William Lane Craig and many more do exhibit traits that are either indicators of psychosis or outright lies.

On the other hand, the majority of creationists are so due to their own ignorance. It's not because they're insane, they probably just don't know any better.

That's why we have to keep this discussion going. If we leave it alone these unfortunate, deceived individuals will remain deceived.


I disagree to an extent.
I think a person whom would believe in a flying carpet and deny airplanes is pretty nutty in any measurable sense.
Ignorance however...yes, that is an answer, however, to cling to a belief and willfully ignoring material that proves that theory wrong...well, that is the other side of it...not insane..but willfully ignorant.

I agree with your last statement..keep pushing and pushing for them to look at the data...and eventually some will break down and examine it...and then, like magic, another evolutionist is born. heh



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Beavis
Are you serious? Your going to tell me that observations made of fossils explains why we are what we are.


Observations of fossils allow us to form hypothesis based on hard evidence not manipulated by any human other than ourselves as to why we are what we are. Phylogenetic evidence based on comparison of sequences of DNA allows us to form hypothesis based on hard evidence as to why what we are is so similar to what other animals - case in point that Homonoidae (Pan troglodytes, Pan paniscus, Homo sapiens, Gorilla gorilla and Gorilla beringei) look so alike and turn out to be so closely related


I don't care either way. The truth is nobody knows for sure one way or another. Sure animals have evolved over the centuries. Does that explain anything ? No.


Nobody knows for sure whether you're a brain in a jar. That isn't testable, so hypothesizing about it is considered - by scientists - a waste of time, although philosophers spend considerable time establishing whether it is testable. What is testable is whether what we are is consistent with hypothesis of how we came to be what we are, based on fossil and molecular evidence.

From what can be tested, it seems that animals (and plants, and bacteria, and even non-living viruses) have evolved over somewhat more than centuries. It explains a lot, actually. It explains why most people catch the cold many, many times but rarely catch Varicella (chickenpox) more than once. It explains why you can treat bacterial but not parasitic infections with penicillin. It explains why you can no longer reliably treat malaria with chloroquine unless you combine it with Artemisin, it explains why using a single pesticide regularly on a field soon renders it useless, it explains why europeans arriving in exotic locations found the native inhabitants wiped out by seemingly harmless diseases, it explains why Queen Victoria thought that apes were disturbingly human, it explains why spiders build webs, it explains why most snakes have no legs, it explains why birds don't give birth to live young, it explains why cephalopods have eyes that are better made than ours, it explains why giraffes have long necks but okapi don't, it explains why zebras have stripes, it explains why lions eat meat, it explains why we have an appendix, it explains why New Zealand has no native mammals other than bats, it explains why australia's native (non-chiropteran) mammals don't possess a placenta, it explains why whales have finger bones, it explains why pythons have back legs, it explains why birds have scales on their legs. It explains why giving people cowpox made them immune to smallpox.

It explains a lot.
edit on 5/12/2010 by TheWill because: unfinished sentence.
edit on 5/12/2010 by TheWill because: Cowpox



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

You have performed testing, and have verified the radiometric data for yourself. You understand what you are looking at, and have examined all bones, and found them to be a part of a chain of evolutionary events. You understand in full the "science" of generational mutations and cellular comparability, and have examined the findings of multiple repeatable experiments, and have determined their relation to the remainder of the evidence in support of an evolving species.

No? Then you are still operating on faith that what is being presented to you is verifiable fact. But you have not taken the first step in verifying it, because you have limited means to do so. Therefore, you are as religious as the creationist you want to declare insane.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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I agree with just about everything in your rebuttal, but I think your missing my point.In a universe so vast as our own, can you really explain how we relate to the bigger picture? Are we just animals on a sphere with no purpose? Think outside the box we call Earth.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by Beavis
There's no evidence for either. Theory is not evidence nor fact.


...in science you get to be called a Theory because you have evidence and facts to back you up. If you don't have those, you're called a 'hypothesis'


Originally posted by Beavis
Are you serious? Your going to tell me that observations made of fossils explains why we are what we are.


Um...the fossil record shows the transition between our ancestral forms to our current form. Yes.
The why? Change in allele frequency. That's evolution.



I don't care either way.


Then why bother when you're clearly not very informed on the issue?



The truth is nobody knows for sure one way or another.


The scientific community is quite sure on the topic of evolution.



Sure animals have evolved over the centuries. Does that explain anything ? No.


...did you just-? Are you seriously saying that?

Of course it explains things. It explains biodiversity. It explains why there are so many damn different types of animals running around.



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 




As always we tend to mis-define arguments and, in so doing, create two opposing camps of opinion both or which are based on fallacies. "Creationism" usually means the biblican Genesis version. This is the radical form and is nutso. Most christians believe in creation followed by evolution, the whole of which is authored by God. This version is a lot more sensible and does no harm to anyone except the firebrands without brains. There is no insanity in this version but, because it makes sense, it is ignored in favor of the other one which is so much fun to rant over.

I give up. No one will ever change. Humans behave as though stupidity is a blessing.
edit on 5-12-2010 by trailertrash because: typo



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by Beavis
 


I do not know. The vastness of the universe ensures that I cannot know, and the bigger picture, if such a thing does exist, does not appear to care that I do not know.

What I can understand, and affect, and understand the effect that I have upon, is largely here on earth. So I satisfy myself with trying to understand what I can rather than lamenting the futility of trying to understand what I cannot understand.

Understood?






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