Should "Creationism" be considered a sign of insanity?

Or just willful ignorance?

There are two points to this thread..one is obvious, the other you will have to speculate on.

Will toss up some videos for those that hate reading but can bother hitting play

Here is the question...should "creationism" be consided a sign of insanity? Willful ignorance? Should teaching children in a scholastic environment be considered willfully be teaching a known falsehood

First, some boring science stuff videos for those whom want to know exactly the science behind the tools and measuring



Now the theory of intelligent design:
Here is the meat and potatos overall..."irreducible complexity".

Behe lacks simple understanding overall. irreducible complexity is a myth also. Sadly, the true "brains" behind the irreducible complexity argument use this specific argument as their core scientific belief system. A absolutely disprovable pile of elegantly put together tripe. They have asked how the flagellium can be reduced..well, it can't while serving the current function, however, if you remove the functional aspect of the "motor" to something else completely, be it breathing or a ton of other possibilities, then its very easily disproven. To see if anyone is actually reading this bit (quick social experiment), type somewhere in your post the word "sparkle". Don't quote that exclusively, just a test to see who is reading before posting, and who is simply rehearsing their preconceptions. Anyhow, back on topic, but do put that in your post somewhere. Basically, Behe is saying a bird must always be a bird, no matter how far back you go..which in itself shows a absolute lack of understanding about evolution...

Thats a basic...very basic...primitive really way of explaining it...but feel free to skip that paragraph and simply watch the next video.

Watch this one video here and you will never again believe in irreducible complexity. Creationists..challenge yourself to press play..take a moment to potentially reveal a truth..even if it may make you uncomfortable initially


So...whats left? What is there honestly left about "creationism" in any of its forms? There is nothing, yet 50% of America still believes in evolution.

This is about as sensible as believing Gandalf created everything..there is absolutely no merit..yet it is being pushed by politicians, some corporations, and being taught by parents homeschooling their children to perpetuate the absolutely known falsehood.

Should it be made a crime to purposefully teach a known falsehood under the guise of truth?

Would it be ok for politicians to teach that women have only half a brain, or that the average black person has a brain defect that forces them to eventually murder senselessly? How about Asians have less nerve endings, making them ultimately feel no pain in the same way a human experiences it, therefore you cannot actually torture them so much as..slightly annoy them. Such concepts are unacceptable, dangerous, and warp the minds of those whom actually believe it...yet we allow "creationism" to continue on in society not just as some silly myth, but as mainstream belief equal to scientific understandings...

I personally think that churches and any place that is found to be teaching a known falsehood should have any state money removed from them, taxed, and be forced to put disclamers up that what is being "taught" is for entertainment purposes only. Also, anyone teaching this crap whom tries to suggest they are teaching anything other than a fictional piece of garbage and dismissing the "entertainment only" sign should be charged with fraud.

Your thoughts?

Oh, and finally...a bit of toungue in cheek fun:

reply to post by SaturnFX


This is where science and personal belief cease to be able to coincide. You cant rationalize belief.

Some people would say a belief in extra-terrestrials is similar to belief in a God, and furthermore, creationism. There isnt any actual proof. Many would argue that fact both ways. But looking at it scientifically, Ive never seen an Alien, and Ive never seen a God either.

When something like religion is trying to be rationalized, it's nearly impossible to really create argument.

Does it sound crazy that the world is only about 3000 years old and we roamed with the dinosaurs?

yes. That sounds nuts.

Does it sound crazy that aliens have been visiting us for years, yet no one has any solid evidence?

Yes. thats nuts too.

I can understand the need for God. The need to take the Bible literally. They think that science is a test of their faith. But believing in absolutes, is dangerous. You make a choice for the absolute, and you cut your mind off to many other possibilities and options.
The same however, can be said for Aliens.....we believe. We make equations trying to prove that there is other life out there. But is there? We dont know yet.

For the record, I am enthusiastic about the possibility of Alien life. I am however, an Atheist.

So you see, one seems more plausable than the other...TO ME.
It may not be the same for everyone else. But I have a scientific mind, I need research, then I need to test the knowledge, then I need proof. Religion seems to me, to be a comfort thing. A "I know what happens when I die" type of mentality. I am ok with the nothingness of death. Others arent...

Just my take. I try to remain objective.

So, you think that more regulation on what people think and believe and teach is the answer because you believe they are wrong?

That doesn't sound like freedom to me. If you think it is stupid, don't support it, don't send your children to one of their schools. Don't visit the Creation Museum. But more laws controling the beliefs and speech of others isn't the answer. And to classify them as insane is also wrong. Remeber there was once a time when anyone who thought the earth was round was considered crazy, and now it is widely accepted.

But I also am one who thinks there should be "no" government funded schools. I feel that each community should fund and control thier own education system.

reply to post by SaturnFX


So the people who made dolly the sheep should be locked up as crazy when they proved fact.

Evolution goons cannot stand the fact that there theory has no basis, and just imagine how far away we are today from creating life from nothing.

Oh no creation cannot exist as evolution with no basis is fact(lol at these people)

reply to post by justagirl


I have to agree that regulation isnt really needed. America was founded on the principals of being able to believe whatever you want. Jesus, Dinosaurs, Rainbow Brite, Aliens, Bigfoot, 2012....
Beliefs....

Of course it's also fair to be able to voice your opinion about a subject if you think it is outright insane.

Originally posted by InertiaZero
Of course it's also fair to be able to voice your opinion about a subject if you think it is outright insane.

What like evolution?

reply to post by justagirl


Education...proper valid education, allows for civilization.

Removal of verifiable evidence and being able to teach anything as a sound science is unimaginably destructive...one belief is -not- equal to another belief. You can believe that feeding a infant bleach daily will make its soul clean. The outcome of that should be obvious. I hope that one example should explain to you why science should immediately push out any ungrounded belief system, and indeed, be ridiculed fiercely to either pressure the person believing in giving bleach to kids is good to rethink their stance, or have their baby forcably removed.

I see religion (teaching people to stone to death other people whom sin, and to bring the end of the world) as equal to the baby and bleach issue...its not some passive "maybe there are aliens monitering earth" belief...it is a instruction book on how to be absolutely brutal and twisted to other humans that needs to be tossed into the fires of previous dangerous superstitions.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

So the people who made dolly the sheep should be locked up as crazy when they proved fact.

Evolution goons cannot stand the fact that there theory has no basis, and just imagine how far away we are today from creating life from nothing.

Oh no creation cannot exist as evolution with no basis is fact(lol at these people)

To be fair, andy...
We dont even fully understand what makes life anyway. We are still discovering things everyday. What about the life that feeds off of arsenic? We never thought that was even possible. Science is still in its infantile stages, when it comes to biology. Who knows what other life is out there? On other planets? It may be a form that we cant even comprehend as of now, with our limited knowledge.

Evolution is a flawed theory, for sure. However, sorting out those flaws is what brings us closer to the truth. The truth however, does not point to a Creator of All Things.

Interesting videos OP. *sparkle*

I dont wish to argue but if you make creationism "illegal" or call it "insanity" then, by definition, any religion would also be deemed such as both require the element of "Faith" to sustain them. While creationism may be illogical, to confuse it with insanity is both foolish and dangerous. Every major religion has its creation stories which involves 3/4 of the population of the planet. To systematically call 3/4 of the planet insane would only alienate and strengthen the resolve of their position.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Total ignorance is what people like richard dawkins want.

Amazing the geezer is so clever he has never ever found out anything that is absolute top secret. But you people jump when he says jump, as you think he is right just by calling peoples names.

Arrogance keeps secrets,a nd this is exactly how evolution works, and its useless theory.

Imagine mankind is not far from creating life on its own, but heck creationism is not even allowed as these ignorant people who like dawkins has never discovered any truths are listened too.

Originally posted by andy1033

Originally posted by InertiaZero
Of course it's also fair to be able to voice your opinion about a subject if you think it is outright insane.

What like evolution?

Thats what separates fact, from opinion and belief.

reply to post by SaturnFX

SPARKLE!

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I am sorry for you. I am sorry that you have no faith in anything larger than your narrow existence. I am sorry that it seems you are desperate to have someone, anyone prove you wrong in your beliefs. It seems that you badly want someone to come up with an argument that would prove to you that God exists so that you can finally have something to believe in. You keep asking people of faith to prove to you that He exists, and that is an endeavor doomed to failure.

I am sorry that you seem so lost and looking for an answer that you cannot receive in the way that you are asking. God really only wants one thing, and that is unconditional trust in Him without evidence or proof. That is the one thing that you will never receive, and I am sorry for that.

Those are my thoughts. You asked.

Originally posted by redbarron626
Interesting videos OP. *sparkle*

I dont wish to argue but if you make creationism "illegal" or call it "insanity" then, by definition, any religion would also be deemed such as both require the element of "Faith" to sustain them. While creationism may be illogical, to confuse it with insanity is both foolish and dangerous. Every major religion has its creation stories which involves 3/4 of the population of the planet. To systematically call 3/4 of the planet insane would only alienate and strengthen the resolve of their position.

Good to see someone read the thread...your the first...you know why.

And I believe all religions suffer the same root insanity, yes...well, every major religion anyhow. And of course that comes from the fact that they all spring from the same tainted well of primitive ignorance.
The monotheistic religions on earth today come from the ancient hebrew religion...they simply won, but because they won does not mean that somehow that makes it right, or any subset of the original valid.

Very few religions I deem to be harmless. Things like Buddism are close to being harmless because they focus more on inner peace and connection to the cosmos..not talking much about anything a deity wants or likes..it puts responsibility for everything, including judgement, right in the laps of the individual verses some figurehead epic space ghost santa making a list and seeing if your naughty.

reply to post by InertiaZero


Evolution is not a fact, if it was we would not be debating it.

I bet you the people who came up with evolution never ever found out secrets and i mean real secrets. That means there opinion is not any more worthy than any other.

There is no fact to evolution over creationism.

Do not forget man is neearly capable of making life now by themselves, but oh no something could not have made all of creation, lol.

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

SPARKLE!

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I am sorry for you. I am sorry that you have no faith in anything larger than your narrow existence. I am sorry that it seems you are desperate to have someone, anyone prove you wrong in your beliefs. It seems that you badly want someone to come up with an argument that would prove to you that God exists so that you can finally have something to believe in. You keep asking people of faith to prove to you that He exists, and that is an endeavor doomed to failure.

I am sorry that you seem so lost and looking for an answer that you cannot receive in the way that you are asking. God really only wants one thing, and that is unconditional trust in Him without evidence or proof. That is the one thing that you will never receive, and I am sorry for that.

Those are my thoughts. You asked.

edit on 12/5/10 by jennybee35 because: to add the ridiculous "sparkle" to prove I read the OP.

lol...nice job..but shush about the arklespay

Actually, I have a well founded and strong spiritual side to me..I certainly don't want a religion or singular deity in my life simply because that is a disruption to what my personal code of beliefs are..however I won't go into all that.

I see religion...religion..not a cosmic concept of God, but a structured taught religion to be an abomination to the planet. My beef...my huge epic beef is with -religion-, which in my very strong opinion, has absolutely nothing to do with something greater than myself, but rather completely cheapens a elegant divine connection between the individual and the universe into schoolyard lies, creation of powerful godlike men, division between thinking, forbidden sciences, etc...there is nothing good religion does for the intellectual progression of society.

It is a tool used by power hungry organizations to keep thinking minimal.keep the flock dumbed down so to speak.

So again...spirituality..I highly encourage. Definately seek a more profound understanding of your place in all of this...but religion? tie it to a stake and burn it from our civilization.

reply to post by andy1033


So who said evolution explains the origin of life? I love how all the people tend to get abiogenesis and evolution confused the ignorance is astounding...... Hmm Micro evolution DOES happen so I guess that means it is FACT! Let's just take the definition for what it is and try not to attack it to fit your creationism agenda...

reply to post by andy1033


I recommend you do a little reading on the subject of evolution. the people who "discovered" the theory of evolution are/were some of the greatest minds in history. While evolution may have some holes in it, at the moment it is the 'Best Possible Solution" based on the evidence.

OP I agree completely about the monotheistic religions and the inherent nature of people to defend their beliefs. remember though, it is easier to change a mind than change a belief system. I recommend 1 mind at a time.

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

SPARKLE!

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I am sorry for you. I am sorry that you have no faith in anything larger than your narrow existence. I am sorry that it seems you are desperate to have someone, anyone prove you wrong in your beliefs. It seems that you badly want someone to come up with an argument that would prove to you that God exists so that you can finally have something to believe in. You keep asking people of faith to prove to you that He exists, and that is an endeavor doomed to failure.

I am sorry that you seem so lost and looking for an answer that you cannot receive in the way that you are asking. God really only wants one thing, and that is unconditional trust in Him without evidence or proof. That is the one thing that you will never receive, and I am sorry for that.

Those are my thoughts. You asked.

edit on 12/5/10 by jennybee35 because: to add the ridiculous "sparkle" to prove I read the OP.

This will be my last post to this thread.

But think for a second...

How condescending it is to associate someone without religious belief as someone who is also empty. Compared to a narrow existence? Faith is not needed for happiness, and lack there of shouldnt make you feel sorry for anyone.

Better yet, how arrogant to think that your belief is the only one that has any validation.

The thread was asking about the removal of religious doctrine from the education system. It posed the question of science versus creationism Not a request for your judgements on the OP's beliefs.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by InertiaZero

 

Evolution is not a fact, if it was we would not be debating it.

We are debating it for the exact same reason why I know you didn't read the OP. it is a willful ignorance and rehearsed preconception.

Taking time to learn what is being said is important to understanding...you and "your side" has so far demonstrated you cannot do this by a simple measure...
I find a person telling me a story in a book sucks, but didn't read the story, to be illogical.

I see religion...religion..not a cosmic concept of God, but a structured taught religion to be an abomination to the planet. My beef...my huge epic beef is with -religion-, which in my very strong opinion, has absolutely nothing to do with something greater than myself, but rather completely cheapens a elegant divine connection between the individual and the universe into schoolyard lies, creation of powerful godlike men, division between thinking, forbidden sciences, etc...there is nothing good religion does for the intellectual progression of society

reply to post by SaturnFX


Well, I mostly agree with you here. Religion of itself is a manmade concept. It has been used as a tool of power hungry rotten men for millenia. That is why I cannot participate in religion. That does not negate my belief in Yahweh in any way, however. I know Him personally (I don't mean in some fruity way) and trust Him implicitly.
I can actually see a remnant of evolution in the creation story in the bible. God did say "Let the sea bring forth life" and "Let the earth bring forth life". To me that means the earth and sea produced that life, and we have no clue how long that took. There is no time line mentioned.

As for the age of the earth: we have no idea exactly how long it's been here. You cannot just choose to ignore archaeology and scientific facts on carbon dating and neanderthals, mummified remains and evidence of human occupation that is 40,000 years old. That would be idiocy. I do know that between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2 there seems to be a HUGE gap of time. That is where I believe the answer is.

What I don't understand is if you want to believe that there could be some "higher power" or whatever you want to call it, how is it possible you can't believe that life was created by that power? When I say created, I mean in any way: i.e sparked the first cell, planted the first bacteria, or even created some life form complete? There is no room in your view of things for that to have taken place? That leaves an awful narrow field of learning, doesn't it?