The entire viewpoint of Israelis on the Middle East conflict- In five minutes.

Originally posted by Eliad
Why guilt?

Even with the racial prejudices that were around at the time people were horrified by the extend of the Holocaust.

More like proof that the Jews need a home and can't stay spread out all over the world..

That argument is retarded . Not all members of a family tend to live in the same area .
Besides once you say yes to one group of spread out religious or ethnic people how do you say no to anyone else getting there " homeland " ?

Look, if you had been mugged and stabbed in your own house, would you feel safe going back to that same house?

Well I wouldn't demand another be built for me or would I necessary think that moving is the answer .

Do you know how much money Israel invests and has invested in Palestine? Tens of millions every month. Not to mention electricity, water, supplies..

Evidently not up to the standards of the mini Marshall Aid style program that is required .

reply to post by backinblack


lol if this had been anti Israeli it would've gotten a million flags.. Does that mean it doesn't have substance? No, it means there's about five times anti Israelis than there are pro Israelis in this forum..

And again, if all you see in this thread is some kind of Israeli propaganda than you're the one that's been brainwashed.

Haha ... did anyone actually READ the OP? I am always impressed by the sheer amount of ignorance that has become commonplace on ATS.

I won't even delve past the first page of this thread because I know it is going to be filled with hatred and intolerance.

I just feel sorry for the original poster for having his (or her ...) entire message completely ignored.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by bigyin

 

At the end of the day claim has nothing to do with historical privileges or any sense of belonging- No one owns a piece of land, at the end of the day it has only to do with international law and consensus.

In 1949, at the end of the war, the armistice was signed with all Arab nations- All the lands within what we call today the 67' borders were to belong to the Israelis. That's the only claim anyone should care about.

In 1967 another war started. In that war Israel took over Sinai, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan heights, this was normal procedure in these kinds of wars, we pushed them back as far as we could, the lands weren't supposed to be ours to keep, but were supposed to be negotiated back, but the Arabs decided not to negotiate. There was a song at that time titles "Rabin waits for Natzer"- Natzer was the Egyptian ruler. Everyone was expecting the Arabs states to crawl back and negotiate terms..
That didn't happen.
As a result I guess someone decided that if the Arabs aren't going to take these back, we might as well settle them, and so began one of the biggest mistakes in Israeli history.

Now a days we understand that the settlements are not there to stay for long, and there must be a two state solution for both our peoples to be happy.

You are completely wrong.

The 1947 Partition Plan boundaries agreed by the UN are not the same as the 1967 boundaries.

If you are going to claim the ground granted by the UN and other parties you have to go back to the 1947 boundaries.

Please get your facts correct.

With regard to settlements and the ground they occupy, you say Israel intends to give these back. Can you explain for me why anyone would spend a lot of money building towns just to give them back ?

Originally posted by Nurv47
Haha ... did anyone actually READ the OP? I am always impressed by the sheer amount of ignorance that has become commonplace on ATS.

I won't even delve past the first page of this thread because I know it is going to be filled with hatred and intolerance.

I just feel sorry for the original poster for having his (or her ...) entire message completely ignored.

Well I read the whole OP and every post..Maybe I care more than you as you say you will not read past page 1..

The OP's view to me is summed up with this quote and the vid.

At any rate, this is very interesting to watch. There is a lot of truth in this video, despite the fact that it's one sided.

There is little truth in that vid.. Just biased, one sided hate. pure and simple....

reply to post by xpert11

Even with the racial prejudices that were around at the time people were horrified by the extend of the Holocaust.

Yes, but can you really only attribute it to guilt? Guilt implies that there wasn't an actual need for it.. Sure, it was horrifying, but that, if anything, indicated there's a need for the Jews to find a place of their own..
You'd rather attribute it to guilt than admit it was a necessity?

That argument is retarded . Not all members of a family tend to live in the same area . Besides once you say yes to one group of spread out religious or ethnic people how do you say no to anyone else getting there " homeland " ?

It's retarded? You're not talking about "members of a family", you're talking about a race of people that's been persecuted and harassed ever since the dark ages..
This isn't about the Jews being scattered, the whole issue of Zionism arose from the violence that was inflicted on all those isolated groups of Jews.

Any scattered minority group should be allowed to live as they please.. The Jewish race and religion have always been secluded from other races and religions..

Well I wouldn't demand another be built for me or would I necessary think that moving is the answer .

Don't be coy, this did not begin and end with the Holocaust.. There has always been violence, the only answer was transferring all the Jews to their own country..
And nobody built their country for them..

Evidently not up to the standards of the mini Marshall Aid style program that is required .

I'm not familiar with that.. Give me a source.

reply to post by bigyin


I'm talking about the 49' armistice lines, after the war, look it up.

As for why would anyone put money into something they're going to dismantle- As I said, it's politics, Netanyahu can't just pull the carpet from under their feet, that would be political suicide.
Also it acts as a tool to put pressure on the Palestinians in the negotiations, and acts as a bargaining chip..

At the end of the day deciding to stay or leave has nothing to do with what's right or wrong, it's all politics.

reply to post by backinblack


Other than his hate mongering "all the Arabs want is to kill you" most of it actually is true. Find me one fact that is false.

Problem is he's showing just one side, or one aspect, or half of the truth.

Show me what facts are false, please.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by bigyin

 

I'm talking about the 49' armistice lines, after the war, look it up.

As for why would anyone put money into something they're going to dismantle- As I said, it's politics, Netanyahu can't just pull the carpet from under their feet, that would be political suicide.
Also it acts as a tool to put pressure on the Palestinians in the negotiations, and acts as a bargaining chip..

At the end of the day deciding to stay or leave has nothing to do with what's right or wrong, it's all politics.

It's delusional, farcical, and deridery

America and other western powers have gone out of their way to provide the Jews with what they wanted.

Not satisfied with what they have been given the Zionists push and push. It's like dealing with a naughty child in a store. It needs a good slap but instead we have to bribe it with sweets to try and get it to do what we want. Meanwhile the shopkeeper watches as the child continues to destroy the place. The rest of us pick up the bill.

Going back to the map and the problem ... I have to say I personally don't think a 2 state solution will work... even if somehow Israel allowed it. I think that so long as their is a JEWISH state in that region there will always be trouble. There will always be a them and us stand off.

At the end of the day there can be an Israel/Palestine (call it what you want) but it has to be run in a fair way by all those who live in the region, and that includes the Palestinians.

I'm going to ask you to give an honest reply to this question. Do you think Israel can be described as aparthied ?

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by bigyin

 

I'm talking about the 49' armistice lines, after the war, look it up.

I have looked it up and the original plan did not include any of Jerusalem. The boundary line came nowhere near the city.

reply to post by bigyin

I have looked it up and the original plan did not include any of Jerusalem. The boundary line came nowhere near the city.

Yes it does, it just doesn't include east Jerusalem.

It's delusional, farcical, and deridery

What is, my analysis, or the politics behind evacuating the settlements.

America and other western powers have gone out of their way to provide the Jews with what they wanted.

What do you mean by that? Because we get military aid? # the military, I wish we didn't need to have one, we'd be better off, but if we didn't have a strong military we'd all be gone by now. and America needs us there.
You're talking about the safety of a nation- When Iraq invaded Iran the U.S started a frikkin' war to help them...

I don't see U.S soldiers helping Israel, so yeah, we need that money to survive, and we can't use it for anything else, the aid money must be used to buy military equipment from the Americans, we don't just get bags of money, like the PM of Iraq gets, or like the PA gets from us.

How exactly have they given us all we wanted? Did they recognize the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territories? Did they nuke Hamas?
Do they not give money to the PA? Are they not insisting on evacuating the settlements, and settlement freezes?
Do you not feel the PA, once it dropped the terror, gets the same as Israel?

They help us, but they don't give us whatever we want, and they help the other side.

It's like dealing with a naughty child in a store. It needs a good slap but instead we have to bribe it with sweets to try and get it to do what we want.

Yeah, like they're slapping Hamas? Or like they're slapping the PA? Or do they all not need a slapping? Like they allow us to continue building settlements, or like they have made settling the West Bank legal...

That's not a very accurate analogy.. What did we get? More military aid and some assurances?

Get over it, will ya? There is no right and wrong, there is only politics, don't you understand? Nobody will care how long negotiations took 50 years from now, all they would care about is the amount of terrain each side got.

Don't be so naive as to think the PA isn't getting anything from the U.S for cooperating.

Going back to the map and the problem ... I have to say I personally don't think a 2 state solution will work... even if somehow Israel allowed it. I think that so long as their is a JEWISH state in that region there will always be trouble. There will always be a them and us stand off.

I hope your wrong. The lines are already fading.. My ex is an Arab Israeli, my mom might have not liked the idea, but they accepted her.. There are Arabs everywhere in Israel, contributing to many aspects of society, and the animosity is slowly fading.. But it will only fade off completely once we get peace.

Look at Egypt 30 years ago, and look at it now- They used to be our biggest enemies, now people go to Egypt all the time..

I think a 2 state solution is the only viable one.. Either way there's nowhere for us to go, and there's nowhere for them to go..

I'm going to ask you to give an honest reply to this question. Do you think Israel can be described as aparthied ?

No.. There's animosity on both sides, racism on both sides, terrorists on both sides, etc..
But the Arabs in Israel are not oppressed, they're the same as any Israeli.

The Palestinians get it bad because they used to be terrorists, and still it's no where near apartheid, the only thing I can think of that's apartheid is the settlement cutting off the Palestinians from roads in their country.

House are wrecked when they don't have a permit, as they would in any Israeli city.

The only thing I agree is that Israel has no business being in the West Bank..

What would you say is apartheid about Israel?

reply to post by bigyin


Bigyin,

That is one heck of an argument. I would think someone would come to the plate with some facts... You told him to check his medication (basicly)... What part of his post did you not agree with? The typical anti-semite- anti-israel follow the leader, would say "all of it" ..

what part? and, to what extent? Is it lies? propaganda? Over/under exageration... Those are the basic anti-israel sticking points..

reply to post by Resurrectio


I stopped reading when he claimed nobody had been displaced by the creation of Israel.

Obviously anyone who makes a statement like that should see a doctor quickly.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Nammu
. The systematic illegal stealing of land from it's righful owners,.

Empty desert land had no owners. The empty desert was cultivated by Israelis and is only now fertile. The few nomads living in the desert were integrated into Israel. "Palestinians" are actually Jordanians.

Read the maps you Ignoramous!!! Palestine has ALWAYS BEEN THERE!!! It is the fault of the western nations that attempted to put an illegal country into the middle of Palestine who are at fault, and you are at fault for thinking that israel has more of a right to the land than Palestinians.

upload.wikimedia.org...

www.christiancdrom.com...

www.maramia.com...

www.wall-maps.com...

www.rorcongress.com...

www.whatsaiththescripture.com...

Eliad, it is now your turn to watch a video.

It is about time you saw through your ignorance to see what YOUR country is doing to its neighbors children.



now go and watch the entire film and then come back here and say your country has a right to do this to innocent children.

www.youtube.com...

Love thy neighbor. I thought you of all people would know this

reply to post by Eliad


Well your weak arguments are changing to suit yourself . You made the issue about the Jews being scatted around the globe which soon came unstuck. Giving the Jews a homeland hasn't solved the problem of the mistreatment and violence towards them you have certainly made another bumbling argument . Yes any ethnic or religious group has the right to live in peace but that can't be extended to giving them a homeland not enough real estate is left for that to happen . Looking back today really in the post war period when ships were charted to bring migrants to places like Australia and New Zealand plenty of options were open to the Jews and others in terms of leaving war torn Europe .

Interestedly IMO Israel is trying to do with the settlements what Ian Smith wanted to do in Rhodesia which is reduce or get rid of the majority population imbalance that did not favour his government. Unless you want to go down the road of Apartheid you can forgot a people living separately . Use some common sense the best to develop the Palestine people would be to bypass there piss poor leaders and say were going to build you x such project and were going to hire x number of locals .

reply to post by Philstine

Love thy neighbor. I thought you of all people would know this

It breaks my heart to see this video.

But if you think the Israeli army can invent some kind of child avoiding bullets, you're wrong.

And if you take any of these actions, and attack, and detach them from reality, and just decide that these shots were fired for fun, and that these houses were demolished for the hack of it, and that Israel somehow wants these people to remain in refugee camps then you need to see through your ignorance.

There is a lot to say about why the Palestinians are fighting, and show the Palestinian's reasons for supporting terror, I agree, but most people on this forum already see that side of things, this is about seeing the other side of things. If you can't see it, if you can't consider it even, then what is your opinion worth?

reply to post by xpert11

Giving the Jews a homeland hasn't solved the problem of the mistreatment and violence towards them

It was an idea, they couldn't have foreseen this conflict. At any rate the Jews in Israel are safe to walk down the street without being bothered by anti Semites, I'd say it worked out just fine.

you have certainly made another bumbling argument

Instead of calling my argument names, maybe you should focus on proving them wrong...

not enough real estate is left for that to happen

Well this was 60-100 years ago.. The world was definitely different than.. But, really, if the Kurds ask to establish their own country, would you not support it? They are currently being massacred and displaced by the Turks, the Irani, the Iraqi, etc.. I would support it.
What were the Jews given anyway? A tiny tiny piece of land to live on? The Palestinians couldn't recover from that? Having the whole of Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon to expend to had they wanted?

Interestedly IMO Israel is trying to do with the settlements what Ian Smith wanted to do in Rhodesia which is reduce or get rid of the majority population imbalance that did not favour his government.

But they don't threaten our government, so how can that be true?

piss poor leaders and say were going to build you x such project and were going to hire x number of locals .

That's what I think too. I think it's been tried in the past, and it was demolished for having anything to do with Israel.. At any rate, that was some time ago, we should try again..
At least for schools, if not anything else.

Problem is their leaders and hardly piss poor, they're just corrupted.. They could have made these refugee camps disappear a long time ago, but then they'd stop getting aid money from the U.N, so they keep them there.
Rest assured that the Palestinian leaders live in giant villas, in luxurious cities.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by Philstine

 

But if you think the Israeli army can invent some kind of child avoiding bullets, you're wrong.

So why does your army continue to use white phosphorus in civilian areas which is internationally banned and a war crime?
is your army exempt from international law?
or is it that ignorance of international laws & your neighbors is a requirement in israel?

israel is the most aggressive country against its neighbors in history.

Originally posted by Eliad


What would you say is apartheid about Israel?

Well first off I hear a lot of influential people saying Israel is an aparthied state. So that makes me wonder and I want to find out.

Here is one very recent example I found after 30 seconds of searching ... am sure I can find plenty more

Jews only Isreal