The entire viewpoint of Israelis on the Middle East conflict- In five minutes.

reply to post by I AM LEGION


lol.. Do you actually believe any of this?

I, at least, presented my video as a one sided, half true, pro Israeli video.. You don't even bother noting that half of what he says is a lie..

I guess that's just the difference between pro and anti Israelis.

reply to post by I AM LEGION


I am in more agreement with this video than the first one.

The problem I don't see as a religious one at all. In many parts of the world mixed cultures and religions get along just fine. There is no need to have a State which is for just one religion.

Of course some argue that Jew is a race not a religion. I say it's religion. The original people of the land we are talking about here are tanned skinned. I'm fair complexion could convert to Jew today but that wouldn't give me any right to go and claim some land in Palestine.

To answer the OP question, there is no way that either side will ever lay down arms. The situation should never have been allowed to become in the first place, ie Israel should not exist, then we wouldn't have the problem. The state is an artificial creation, not natural. It shouldn't be there.

However the fact is it is there. The only way to a peaceful solution is for Israel to stop with the racial and religious division and allow Arabs the same rights. This ultimately will see the disappearance of Isreal as we know it, but hopefully in a slow controlled way until eventually it becomes just like any other country. Jews who want to live there can do so on equal terms with Muslims and Christians.

reply to post by bigyin

The original people of the land we are talking about here are tanned skinned.

Race refers to classifications of humans into populations or groups based on various factors, such as their culture, language, social practice or heritable characteristics.

Even the Swedes were dark skinned at some point of their history.. You're talking about thousands of years ago, I just don't see how that's relevant.. Even if all Jews were tanned skinned, it still wouldn't mean anything..
It's an issue of origins... And whether or not it is relevant a few thousand years later, and if so- What are the consequences of this relevance.

The state is an artificial creation, not natural.

And you believe that the "Palestinians" as it were, are the natural inhabitants of this land, and were not brought here to replace the people that have been slain in various conquests?
It's always been artificial.

he situation should never have been allowed to become in the first place

I agree.

ie Israel should not exist

I disagree... The Jews needed to have a country of their own somewhere..
A million things could have happened to prevent this..
The land could have been divided differently before the arrival of the Jews in a way that does separate the Jordanians or Syrians from the Palestinians, as it was during ottoman times...
The Brits could have disagreed to giving the Jews a land in Palestine, and agreed to give them a land somewhere else.. Like, say, somewhere nice in Europe..
The Arabs could have agreed to the partition plan.
The Israelis could have been forced back to the partition plan lines after the war by the UN, or Arab nations.
The problem is non of these happened, and we are where we are..

The only way to a peaceful solution is for Israel to stop with the racial and religious division and allow Arabs the same rights.

No racism- Agreed.
No religions- Agreed.
But the Israeli Arabs have the same rights as any Israeli, what makes you think they don't?

until eventually it becomes just like any other country.

It is a normal country.. They just speak Hebrew and celebrate Jewish holidays, that's it.. Why do people make such a big deal out of it, as if America isn't ruled by Christians, and the Church doesn't influence your politics.. Come on..

Jews who want to live there can do so on equal terms with Muslims and Christians.

They already do...

reply to post by Eliad


Why do Jews need to have a land of their own ?

Do Christians have lands of their own ? no

Do Muslims have Lands of their own ? no

Does any other religion have a land of it's own ? .... no

So why Jews ? .... oh ic Jews are not Jewish religion they are Jewish race ... so all these white people who moved to Israel somehow managed to change race from Caucasian to Jewish ..... umm how did they manage that ?

reply to post by bigyin


They needed a land because they were attacked by anti Semites, before, after, and during WW2.

There aren't any Christian states? Are you kidding me? The whole of Europe was founded on Christianity, America is very Christian as well, and it very much affects their politics, until this day the English term Unchristian is a term for being bad..
The whole of India is pretty much Hinduist and Buddhist, and all of the Arab and Islamic nations are Islamic by nature, by law, and by way of life, some even by name.
Even Japan is Shintu and Buddhist.

You know what? Show me one country in the world that is *secular*.. That'll be something..

The other thing is that the Jews have very particular costumes, very strange holidays and a very strange language, and even before Hebrew they had their own separate languages (or dialects) that were only spoken by Jews (Yiddish in Europe, and Ladino in the latin counties), but at the same time they don't take up more than a tiny minority of any nation and there is no reason why any country should adopt these traditions simply because a couple of Jews live in it..

reply to post by Eliad


So are you saying Jewish is religion or race ... which is it ?

reply to post by bigyin


It's all the Jews fault.....blah, blah, blah.

Why doesn't anyone on the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim side ever turn the mirror on themselves? They claim Israel is illegal and that they have claim to all of the British Mandate of Palestine, the UN disagrees with that. The Jewish State of Israel isn't going away, it will stay in the Middle East in pretty much the 67 borders eventually.

Can the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim side ever get over the fact that Israel isn't going away? That sooner or later that they will have to live in peace with them as neighbors? Egypt did it, Jordan did it. I don't think the rest of the Arab world would be happy if Israel went totally back to the 47 borders and never attacked anyone. They just can't stomach the fact that there is a Jewish State anywhere in the area.

Sure Israel does some stupid, idiotic things a lot of the time. The Arab/Palestinian/ Muslim side doesn't give them any hope of reaching a lasting peace that includes Israel living in safe secure borders as a Jewish State. That, my friend, is the real problem. Most on the anti Israel side want the destruction of Israel as a Jewish State in the Middle East. As I have said often here, it's hard to negotiate with someone who wants your utter destruction.

Just to prove my point..... Could everyone here on the anti Israel side tell me if they would support the right of Israel to peacefully co-exist with the rest of the Middle East in the 1967 borders as a Jewish State? I'm not talking right of return or even the status of Jerusalem. Just the general concept of the right of Israel to live peacefully in the Middle East as a Jewish State? Would you condemn any Arab attack on Israel if those conditions were in place?

reply to post by pavil



You missed the entire point in my posts.

Try reading them again and come back.

reply to post by bigyin


I reread... You think Israel should not have existed in the first place. It's a very similar thought to what most Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims have. I stand by my statements.

reply to post by pavil


So go ahead and tell us why you think it should exist.

Is the Jewish State based on Jewish the religion or Jewish the race.

Either it's religion in which case I as a white caucasian can convert to Judaism tomorrow and move to Palestine and turf a local out of his house.

Or it's based on race in which case can you explain how there are so many white Jews taking homes away from real Semites.

reply to post by bigyin


Quite frankly it really doesn't matter one way or the other.......Israel exists, the Palestinians exist, they are not going away, regardless of how many times people try. Would you recognize the right of a Jewish Israel to live in peace with it's neighbors in secure, defined borders? I think the Palestinians have that right as well. Till people there accept that as a starting point, no progress will be made.

Most Israelis would accept a Palestinian State next to them, would most Palestinians accept an Israeli State next to them? For all the talk of how Israel wants to genocidally eliminate the Palestinians, I find it odd that the only ones who talk about in publicly stated goals, wiping out the other side, seem to be Arab/Palestinian/Muslim side. Reread the Hamas Charter if you doubt me.

Again, it's hard to negotiate with someone whose stated goal is to eradicate you.

To be honest I am sick and tired of the whole " Middle East Problem ." The modern day state of Israel was founded because of guilt over the Holocaust and Truman desire to win over the Jewish . As post colonial Africa also showed guilt makes for a extremely poor policy motivator . The pro Israel lobby if you can even call them that who are powerful in the halls of Washington DC let there bible guide them on this issue for petes sake. Heck they are about on the brain dead par with what was the China First lobby . Until there influence wanes and Israel is forced to invest in the Palestine people with the goal of cutting the unemployment rate and improving peoples standard of living . Terrorism is a lot less attractive to someone who has a steady paying job all of which leaves the extremists increasingly isolated. Until that happens things will drag on as the status quo for years to come .

As a result of centuries of religious indoctrination and decades of government propaganda, Jews in Israel (and elsewhere) appear unable to accept or understand a fundamental truth – that the land that is now Israel was forcibly taken from Palestinians and that a promise by a mythical deity cannot over-rule the basic human rights of millions. As a result of this cognitive dissonance, many Jews react with indignation when Palestinians reject what Jews believe to be very generous offers to donate perhaps one tenth of the former land of Palestine for a Palestinian homeland, a ‘homeland’ which would amount to small prison enclaves surrounded by the Israeli military. It is for this reason that neither Hamas nor a single Palestinian will recognize Israel’s right to exist in its current configuration. Nelson Mandela and most Western democracies also refused to recognize the South African apartheid regime’s right to exist. Israel today is a nation and society marked by a paranoid personality disorder writ large. For most Jews, Israel must always ‘walk alone’ because Jews are specially chosen by god. In a supreme act of personal disempowerment, they have given up any say in their own future or the future of their nation by submitting to the dictates of a religious text of dubious origin that simultaneously glorifies and condemns them. The cry of ‘anti-Semitism’ serves to buffer Israel and the Jews from all criticism because criticism of Israel or the Jews is understood as simply the fulfillment of biblical prophecy that the world will turn against the Jews and Israel. It is hard to think of a better example of pathological thinking or a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is just this type of pathological thinking that has led Israel to justify its inhuman treatment of the Palestinians as ‘self-defense’ and more recently to excuse it’s murderous attack on the Gaza flotilla. The Jews of Israel would do well to wake up to the fact that, in continuing to show such distain and disregard for human life and world opinion, their political leaders are not only in flagrant violation of international law, but have forgotten the original reason for the creation of a Jewish homeland – to safeguard the future of the Jewish people. Israel’s future as a viable state for Jews and others is intrinsically tied to the Palestinians and the defense of their rights to life and liberty. With each Palestinian that dies as a result of Israeli policy in Palestine, with each new Israeli settlement that is built on Palestinian land, the future of Israel as a viable state is further compromised and the security of the Jewish people jeopardized.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Nammu
. The systematic illegal stealing of land from it's righful owners,.

Empty desert land had no owners. The empty desert was cultivated by Israelis and is only now fertile. The few nomads living in the desert were integrated into Israel. "Palestinians" are actually Jordanians.

Please don't say that Skyfloating, because you don't want Kurds to come from their home land to your deserts and claim it as their own, and start their own police force, military and secret service, then import massive Kurdish population to America (supposed deserts) then kick Americans out when they resist the forceful migration, invasion and occupation. To add salt to the wound, the support for the Kurdish occupiers come from China, and China gives them weapon and even nukes, then ... ohhh Jeez, what am I saying, I was gonna write a novel :p

What a naive and ignorant statement to make, especially coming from a mod which some do take a little more seriously than the rest.

Last 3 posts I am in agreement with.

The op video is also correct in asmuch as thats how many Jews see the situation.

As Oozy says it's like dealing with a mentally deranged person. You can't deal with them. They have it in their heads they are right and doesn't matter what anyones else thinks.

Some people in court charged with murder can get let off if it's shown they were not of sound mind, that they acted in a false belief, they might even have heard voices (from god) telling them what to do.

That doesn't mean the person is bad, or in this case the country Israel, it means they need help to get better.

But they cannot be alowed to contine destroying other peoples lives.

reply to post by bigyin

Race refers to classifications of humans into populations or groups based on various factors, such as their culture, language, social practice or heritable characteristics.

Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of life and the universe,

It's a religion born out of a race, or a race born out of a religion, either way both definitions apply to it.

You can be secular and still be Jewish.. You can be a Muslim or a Christian, and still be Jewish.
At the same time you might not be of Jewish descent, but you can convert to Judaism.

Either it's religion in which case I as a white caucasian can convert to Judaism tomorrow and move to Palestine and turf a local out of his house.

If you convert to Judaism, a process that takes years, and is insanely difficult, you should have the right to move to the land where they speak your faith's language, celebrate its holidays and live according to its customs.. It definitely does not mean you can take anyone's home, even if you were a part of the race..

Or it's based on race in which case can you explain how there are so many white Jews taking homes away from real Semites.

Read the definition of race..
And Jews aren't Semites?

In Medieval Europe, all Asian peoples were thought of as descendants of Shem. By the nineteenth century, the term Semitic was confined to the ethnic groups who have historically spoken Semitic languages.

Well, they're definitely Semites by definition.
My grandparents are Turkish and Syrian, what does that make me?

Why is it relevant whether it's a race or a religion?
On the one hand this has always been the home of the Jewish people, therefor all of our stories, most of our ancient history, and nearly all of our ancient cities were born here.. Our entire existence as a people revolves around this place.

On the other hand I don't believe that should be the reason Jews have "a right" to "claim" this place.. It certainly has something to do with choosing this piece of land, but no one has a right to claim anything.

The Jews needed a place of their own. Everywhere they were was either a Christian country, or a Muslim country, dominated largely by those religions, and those holidays and customs. They were also persecuted quite a lot throughout history. They needed one piece of land to be in. Don't forget, the Jews did have a piece of land, they were relocated from this piece of land by the Romans.

So, the Jews needed a piece of land, Palestine was the obvious choice for most of them, now why do they have a right to this land?
Simple- It was promised to them by the British, and given by the U.N.

Was it theirs to give? I don't know.. Was it the Roman's to take? Was it the Muslims to conquer and populate with the people you know as the Palestinians? Probably not...
Can any of this be changed today, 60 years later? Not really.

reply to post by xpert11

The modern day state of Israel was founded because of guilt over the Holocaust

Why guilt? More like proof that the Jews need a home and can't stay spread out all over the world.. You're forgetting the Jews weren't always spread out, they were a people, just like the French, the Swedes or the Italians, and they were scattered by the Romans, and managed to maintain their culture and heritage by secluding themselves..

Look, if you had been mugged and stabbed in your own house, would you feel safe going back to that same house?

let there bible guide them on this issue for petes sake.

Oh, come on, what a weak argument.. Sure, it's the bible, they're all a bunch or religious crazy people.. It can't be political, it can't be because Israel is full of Jews, no.. It has to be the bible. For pete's sake..

Until there influence wanes and Israel is forced to invest in the Palestine people with the goal of cutting the unemployment rate and improving peoples standard of living

Do you know how much money Israel invests and has invested in Palestine? Tens of millions every month. Not to mention electricity, water, supplies..

But it can't run their economy.
Whether or not it's doing enough is disputable, but it certainly doing something.

Terrorism is a lot less attractive to someone who has a steady paying job all of which leaves the extremists increasingly isolated.

Nothing could be more true.

reply to post by oozyism

because you don't want Kurds to come from their home land to your deserts and claim it as their own

We'd probably take them in, just like we're taking in Darfurian genocide refugees..

reply to post by bigyin

As Oozy says it's like dealing with a mentally deranged person.

So what you're doing is dismissing any and all arguments against your opinions by saying the other side is crazy.

Why won't you admit it, you can't defend your argument because they're all based on assumptions, propaganda and indoctrination rather than actual knowledge of Israel, its people, and its history.

They have it in their heads they are right and doesn't matter what anyones else thinks.

That's the whole point- They are right, the Palestinians are also right, both see only one side of things.
This video has a lot of facts and a lot of truth in it, just not the whole truth.
If you can't see that then you're the indoctrinated one.

Originally posted by Eliad

Can any of this be changed today, 60 years later? Not really.

Your post makes some fair points.

But I don't understand your last comment. The people who Israel are displacing have lived in the area for a lot longer than 60 years. You are saying their situation can be changed but Israel situation cannot. That doesn't make sense.

The settlements for example which are the current focus of complaint will have to change. They are illegal under international law, so eventually they will have to be either dismantled, or given over to Palestinians. That is if Israel is serious about a peace plan. Somehow I feel that Israel is not serious about a peace plan and has no intention of giving up the settlements or even stopping their expansion. What do you think Israel's plans are ?

You can't seriously expect the Palestinians to accept anything else.