The entire viewpoint of Israelis on the Middle East conflict- In five minutes.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by backinblack

 

No, you specifically said that Palestinians have no access to Internet/TV, which is a blatant falsehood. Ive been to Palestinia and even seen Internet-Cafes all over the place.

So I ask you again: Why do you come to the Internet and spread false Information on behalf of Palestinians?

Did I?? You really need to learn how to read...
Come back and try again....

nevermind

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Eliad

 

Wow, I'm speechless. Thats the most onesided piece of propaganda I have seen in ages.
Luckily the average Israeli has access to the internet and REAL news, unlike those stuck in the prison you call Palistine..

The Palestinians are very well connected Internet-Wise and TV-Wise.

Why do you spread false information

edit on 12-11-2010 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

Mate please read again..

Luckily the average Israeli has access to the internet and REAL news, unlike those stuck in the prison you call Palistine..

Over 70% of Israeli housholds have internet access as per link below.
www.websiteoptimization.com...

Less than 15% of Palistinians have internet access as per link below.
www.internetworldstats.com...

So care to dispute that the "average" Palistinian has internet access when 85% do NOT ???

[

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Nammu
. The systematic illegal stealing of land from it's righful owners,.

Empty desert land had no owners. The empty desert was cultivated by Israelis and is only now fertile. The few nomads living in the desert were integrated into Israel. "Palestinians" are actually Jordanians.

Are you denying that there are illegal Israeli settlements? Really?

Just because there was bedouins on the land doesn't give anyone the right to take the land they rely on for survival. Especially by moving in large groups of people that have nothing to do with that area, apart from an old book full of fabrications, that's been misinterpreted to lay some claim to the area.

Nomads in the desert still need room to travel to live their life in their traditional way. That's no excuse for just plunking a load of people from other countries on the land they live off of. And they weren't all nomads. Many were and still are farmers, that have had their farms and livelihood taken from them.

I don't care what 'Palestinians' are or aren't. They could be from Katmandu for all i care. My grandparents are Irish, so i guess i should just scoot off back to Ireland then? Surely the Irish government should be responsible for me if that's where my family originated. That argument is getting old.

They were living there and were relying on that land to survive. Now they're mostly in refugee camps and living in poverty behind walls and checkpoints and they're expected to be ok with that. To just sit down and shut up.

To me, it's kind of like taking a huge patch of America and going, ok we're just going to stick a huge bunch of Christians here. All the people that survived off this land, well bad luck it belongs to us now, kill a load of them and stick them in camps.........Hold on a sec. Sound familiar? That's why most Americans see that Israel is justified in doing this. It strikes very close to the bone. Britain did it too. We did it bad. I blame my country for helping to start this mess.

It amazes me that anyone can seriously think that a load of people from many different countries have more right to a piece of land that the people that have continuously lived there, regardless of all the religious bullcrap or who did what. Madness.

Originally posted by backinblack
[

WTF a lying MOD !!!!
Anyone can see NOT ONE of my posts has been edited....
Exactly HOW did I remove any statement??????????????

That is ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!

Jeeez.

I had misread to think you removed your statement...because you claimed you did not say something which you did say.

You said Palestinians have no access to TV/Internet.

This is a FALSE Statement. The TRUTH is that they do.

Originally posted by Nammu

Just because there was bedouins on the land doesn't give anyone the right to take the land they rely on for survival..

Wait a minute....the Bedouins are not the ones complaining. Its the "Palestinians" who moved over from Jordan, the ones who suddenly got interested in the area only when Jews started moving there.

Originally posted by Nammu

It amazes me that anyone can seriously think that a load of people from many different countries have more right to a piece of land that the people that have continuously lived there, regardless of all the religious bullcrap or who did what. Madness.

The country already exists and his inhabited by many and you still question its right to exist. But how is that going to help in finding peace? Its not.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by backinblack
[

WTF a lying MOD !!!!
Anyone can see NOT ONE of my posts has been edited....
Exactly HOW did I remove any statement??????????????

That is ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!

Jeeez.

I had misread to think you removed your statement...because you claimed you did not say something which you did say.

You said Palestinians have no access to TV/Internet.

This is a FALSE Statement. The TRUTH is that they do.

edit on 12-11-2010 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I said the "AVERAGE" Israeli, unlike in palistine......
You DID see the word average and understand english enough to comprehend my statement which I still stand by?
The "AVERAGE" Palistinian DOES NOT have internet access..
True or false???? Your call.....

Originally posted by backinblack
Wait, I thought borders were set..
Are you saying borders agreed to do not matter if its so called desert??

Somewhere back in the day, the Turks conquered the strip of desert. Then Jews started rolling back in because of their historical connection to the place. Then the British Empire conquered the little strip of desert. Then Israel was founded. Jordanians didnt like the idea of Jews coming back in so they started moving to that strip of desert and calling themselves "Palestinians".

Now "Palestinians" claim it is their land and the West claims that "both sides are right" when in fact the "Palestinians" are not at all right.

But still Israel is willing to grant them their land and nation and so is the International Community. But thats not what they want, is it?

reply to post by Skyfloating

Wait a minute....the Bedouins are not the ones complaining. Its the "Palestinians" who moved over from Jordan, the ones who suddenly got interested in the area only when Jews started moving there.

You were the ones that called them nomads (bedouins). That was your argument for Jews taking the 'empty desert'. So now they're not? Ok that's cool. My question then would be - if non-native Arabs migrated there at the same time as non-native Jews, then surely the arabs have as much claim to the land as the Jews do?

The country already exists and his inhabited by many and you still question its right to exist. But how is that going to help in finding peace? Its not.

I have never questioned it's right to exist. Please prove that i have done this. It is actually you questioning the right of Arab Palestine to exist, with your use of 'Palestine' in quotes, saying they are Jordanian as if they should go back there and saying they are nomads in empty desert then changing your mind. How does that help peace?

Both have a right to exist equally. Jews can purchase land and houses legally, but they should not be able to illegally steal land, houses and farms. They have no right to the land over and above anyone else because some old dusty book filled with hatred says so. Arabs have a right to not live in poverty, trapped behind a wall and checkpoints. They have a right to proper healthcare and education. Their children have the right to not be killed by a bomb being dropped on their house over something they do not understand. Jews have a right to live without rockets getting thrown at them from disgruntled arabs.

reply to post by Nammu


In time,I will eventually be proven correct.
The Messiah will be returning soon.

This video is laughable. Gee, I wonder why the palestinians don't want Israel to be a legitimate state, maybe because it's their homeland? the opening statement contains a lie, Israel does not recognize palestine, they call them terrorists.

watching this video, I feel sorry for the Jews, not Israel, but the Jews for being bombarded with this anti-semitism gag where little ol' Israel is stuck in between the big bad Arab states. Watch the movie "defamation" it's sickening how the young Jewish kids are indoctrinated to think the entire world hates them. Couple this with the notion that they are the "chosen ones" and you have a recipe for an ego complex that could only end in disaster. Christians have it pretty bad themselves, being forced to believe Mary was a virgin, that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and occasionally when you're bad God suddenly stops being a loving God and starts to become a vengeful God, seems like whenever it is convenient for the church to go on a tirade against sin, which is basically anything the state doesn't like, proving the church is nothing but an arm of the totalitarian state. But as for Judaism, aside from the ultra orthodox set of rules they have, which most Jews wisely ignore, they also have this stigma as being "the jews" the most hated and despised people on earth because everyone is just jealous of their intelligence, at least that's my take on their view point from their own perspective. Not that the Arabs are any better, they are so conservative it's like a nation of Amish people, no wonder the young boys are getting into drugs or worse terrorism and the girls are becoming strippers, you can't deny basic instincts for that long and expect everything to go over smoothly. Aside from those generalizations, they are just generalizations, which is why religion is sick to begin with, it generalizes an entire people as "jew" "christian" "muslim" and so because of religion Beck, who I don't like to begin with, is now an anti-semite because he insulted one Jew. Give me a break. If I were to tell you that an Italian mafia exists, would you think I am racist against all Italians? (I'm Italian by the way). So why is it whenever someone mentions a criminal who just happens to be Jewish suddenly it's a Jew thing? I'm combining threads here so I apologize, I'm referencing the Glen Beck/Soros thing, and I do blame people for intentionally making it a Jewish thing because they are falling into the ignorance of assuming one religious person is the same as the others, but the it's done on both sides, I guess all I want is an open mind and to consider possibilities and not dismiss something because someone somewhere may have a hint of resentment that such a theory is "anti-semitic" that merely makes me more interested in seeing if it is true or not. I don't have a religion by the way, freedom is my spirituality.

reply to post by mamabeth


Yeah well, i'm sure when (if) your Messiah returns he'll more than likely be just a wee bit p'd off at the murder from both sides. Me, i'll just rely on being a good person, speak out against tyranny and murder and see how it all plays out.

I certainly would never justify stealing and murder just cause folk are of a certain bloodline or not. Can't be good for the soul.

Does Jesus support bombing? Does he support walling people up and stealing land? Does he support murder? Nope. What is happening is completely anti what your 'messiah' is supposed to be about and what he taught.

We might as well just throw ourselves into a lake of fire right now. You rely on some fairytale saving your soul and i'll work on doing the right thing to save mine myself. See you at the clearing at the end of the path.

I'm glad there's such a lively debate, I only wish more people had actually read the OP rather than just watching the video and assuming they understand everything.

I thought a simple disclaimer with 7 points would be easy enough to read, but appearently some people have missed the whole thing and felt it necessary to rewrite everything I wrote in regards to it being full of one sided facts and distortions, or about it being one sided.
So forgive me if I don't address these posts directly.

Also I'd like to remind you that-

6) The sole purpose of this thread is to put you in the shoes of an Israeli for five seconds, to see that they're just ordinary people like you and me, and that their reasons for fighting, or accepting or not accepting certain things aren't different from anyone else's.. It's the circumstances that are different.
7) There's lots of room all over the forum to debate the historical, factual or other aspects of this video, so let's stick to the topic, especially when it's so neatly defined..

Let's try to stay on topic here.. let's not keep having the same old boring discussion every time the word Israel is mentioned.

reply to post by backinblack

Luckily the average Israeli has access to the internet and REAL news, unlike those stuck in the prison you call Palistine..

This argument is very interesting, because what you're basically saying is that the Palestinians have no access to real news and are therefor brainwashed by propaganda, religion and hate rather than what you call the REAL news (is it more real when it's in caps?), is this really what you're trying to say?

On the other side of your argument Israelis do have access to REAL news, but as you know there are always too sides to every news story, and you won't find the same interpretation of events in anti Israeli sources and pro Israeli sources..
So the average Israeli might read the paper every day, but will see military actions as necessary, random acts of violence against Arabs as an exception, and random acts of violence against Israelis as the rule.

Most Israelis want peace, but believe that the Arabs want to kill them, and don't care about peace, a conception that was not born out of thin air.

reply to post by Nammu

and the mass immigrantion of non-native people into someone elses country after a war that country had nothing at all to do with.

Staying on topic with this- Can you understand why the Israelis don't see it that way? Watching the video, can you understand why the average Israeli feels this land was not taken by force, but settled in a peaceful manner, in accordance to what the world had told the Jews to do? They were promised a piece of land in Palestine by the British, that's it.
Can you understand why most Israelis see the Arabs as enemies, having been attacked on the same day of declaring independence?
Did you know that the Israeli consensus is that the Arabs were offered to stay but ran out, because they had hoped to come back and take it all back? This is true for many of the Arabs who has lived in Palestine, by the way.

Obviously there is disregard for the other side, but it does not come out of evil.. Misconceptions born out of years of war, violence, terror and seeing only the most extreme voice their opinions, yes, but not evil.

Even the settlements- Most Israelis don't really care about the settlements or more land.. More and more Israelis are realizing the settlements are bad for both Israel and Palestine.. But evicting cities of 10K+ citizens is never an easy task.

Those were Israelis that supported the eviction of the Gaza strip, and those were Israelis that preformed it, not anyone else, and that speaks tons to the character of the Israeli people.

reply to post by BillfromCovina

Why do Jews believe they have a right to this land?

Well, there's a deep connection to this land, obviously, this has always been the home of the Jewish people.. Every nation has its history and land marks and monuments, the Jews had theirs in Israel.

But if you ask me why the Jews actually have a right to this land I'd say the only reason is because the UN gave them a piece of land here, as for the other pieces that were taken in wars- everything beyond the 67' borders is illegal, everything inside it is legal, and sadly irreversible..

Is there another country allowed to base their existence on religion and race?

Of course there are- There are many Muslim nations, with laws based upon the teachings of Islam, some include cutting off people's hands. Israel is much more moderate, so there's no ancient punishments, the only thing derived from Judaism is the lack of a death penalty.

Pragger states in this video that Israel has been autonomous 3 times in its history or ruled by the Jews. Not even this statement can be proven true, but even if it were that is a very short time in history for them to believe that they have some type of rights to this land.

It's most likely that it's true.. This land has always been ruled by one empire or another and was not an autonomous nation for most of it's history..
The question is- Is it relevant? No I don't feel it gives the Jews any special rights on the land.

Their beliefs are the problem or disease. It is their religious beliefs from the old testament and Talmud that cause them to believe they are entitled.

This is a gigantic misconception.. I'm Israeli, I'm secular, I can tell you for a fact that while we all feel we have a connection to this land, non of us feel entitled in any way, and the only reason we're here is because we were born here, because we grew up here, because that's the only place that speaks Hebrew and celebrates Jewish holidays.. Has nothing to do with the Talmud or bible..
The settlements are different.. But they'll be evicted sooner or later and they do not represent the Israeli people.

What are the boundaries of the "Promised Land" and how are they supposed to treat and interact with the goyim or gentiles?

Come to Israel, please, see how gentiles are treated.. We're so in love with western culture that any native English speaker is treated like a movie star..

This problem will not end or will the Jews be happy until they have all the land promised in the old testament.

What indications do you have that that's true? Do you really think Israel is planning on invading Egypt or Jordan ever again?
And why do you picture the Israelis as these arcane bible toting buncha crazies? We're no different than you- Religion plays a small part in most of our lives..

reply to post by filosophia

Israel does not recognize palestine, they call them terrorists.

Israel recognizes their right to a nation..

it's sickening how the young Jewish kids are indoctrinated to think the entire world hates them.

Do you think that 60 years of wars, hate, and deaths on both sides do not contribute to any of this?
Do you think that the poor job the UNHRC is doing does not contribute to any of this?
Do you think the extremely biased Goldstone report does not contribute to this? Especially after seeing what the Americans and their colleagues are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?

This preoccupation with Israel is insane, there are genocides going on in the world that nobody gives two #s about.. People are literally being butchered with machetes and raped in Darfur, N. Korea does who knows what to its people, and sells nuclear weapons to Iran, which could lead to god knows what, Turkey has dislocated thousands from their homes just for being Armenian, it has occupied Cyprus, and there's no lack of other examples...

Add the average Israeli opinion on the conflict, and you'll get why Israelis think the world's against them..

reply to post by Eliad


Yes Eliad, i see all of those points clearly. But i also see the same on the other side. I also know many Israelis can also see the other side. Hence the fact that i get angry at a biased video such as this that try to justify while missing out key points.

reply to post by backinblack


What an awful argument...

That is like saying that Compton california has less net-access than hollywood. If they would use the supplies to build infastructure instead of bunkers and war readiness shelters.... They might be able to google the media manipulation they are successfully pulling off!

reply to post by Nammu


I got angry at it too, and I am Israeli.. Well not angry, more embarrassed, but still, I didn't post this for these points, I just wanted to show that Israelis don't see themselves as conquerers and aren't aware of many difficult issues, and that it's only natural that they mainly see their side.

Many people think that the Israelis don't care, or that they're evil, or that they're cruel, because those many people only look at the Palestinian side, and they tend to think there's only one truth to this conflict..

Well, there isn't.

Here's the entire viewpoint between Israeli's and Palestinians in five minutes.



A very simple easy to understand video.