Golden Knights respond (to me) regarding El Paso Lights

On page six of this thread, I rudely and callously insulted RICH-ENGLAND over my distaste of the constant bickering mostly created by and targeted at one single ATS Member -- Who was not RICH-ENGLAND.

MODS: I hope you will allow this post to remain so that my attempt at an honest and sincere apology reaches those that were offended.

I became upset that the latest UFO threads of NYC 10/13/10 and El Paso have turned into an ugly My Dad Can Beat Up Your Dad mentality battle between the two sides of this debate.

So far, the only resolve I have seen is the fact that we only agree to disagree, avoiding any attempt at healthy and forward moving debate regarding what was or was not in the OP's videos. We are all entitled to our opinions but we must understand and remember that just because our opinions differ we do not possess the right to threaten the entitlement of others.

I understand that this may seem hypocritical on my part in some eyes but I would like to take this moment to admit my fault and error in judgment and making an honest attempt to make it right.

Becoming upset in no way granted me any right to disrespect or insult RICH-ENGLAND and I am posting a new video in hopes that Rich will understand that I am honestly very sorry for my last posting. Also hope to show that I was only targeting my angst at the manner in which these threads have become attack pieces and not him personally. The worst part of my earlier action is that I focused my angst at a member who posted something in a different thread that I took offense to and in this thread he has shown nothing but healthy, respectful and forward moving posts.

I hope many will take the time to watch this short piece and remember why we all visit ATS as well as how much we have in common.

Again, My Apologies and My Respect,

t

So if they didn't do it, who did?

reply to post by NukeDad

I think you are way too trusting of the media, especially local media. While the local paper (El Paso Times) had an article detailing the Friday night jump (including video from inside the plane of the jump in question), the local NBC affiliate, KTSM, chose to report "mysterious lights" to the soundtrack of the X-files without investigating anything. They are the reason for this firestorm that has now reached the London newspapers and the Drudge Report. I find it ridiculous that no one from the station even tried to find out what was going on. This Air show has been an annual event in October for over 20 years. It's no secret.

Yes. In fact, I noticed that nearly all the reports on all these sightings from the past week or so that have been reported in the MSM seem over the top--like they're really trying to hype this stuff. This is highly unusual because previously, when we would get these reports, there was always an undertone of ridicule toward the idea that it could be ufos.

reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot

Again, My Apologies and My Respect,

I realize I'm sticking my nose into your business here, but I have to say....awesome post, star from me.

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by NukeDad

 

I think you are way too trusting of the media, especially local media. While the local paper (El Paso Times) had an article detailing the Friday night jump (including video from inside the plane of the jump in question), the local NBC affiliate, KTSM, chose to report "mysterious lights" to the soundtrack of the X-files without investigating anything. They are the reason for this firestorm that has now reached the London newspapers and the Drudge Report. I find it ridiculous that no one from the station even tried to find out what was going on. This Air show has been an annual event in October for over 20 years. It's no secret.

Yes. In fact, I noticed that nearly all the reports on all these sightings from the past week or so that have been reported in the MSM seem over the top--like they're really trying to hype this stuff. This is highly unusual because previously, when we would get these reports, there was always an undertone of ridicule toward the idea that it could be ufos.

Project Blue Beam?

reply to post by Subjective1

Project Blue Beam?

Ha, ha....don't even get me started.

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by Subjective1

 

Project Blue Beam?

Ha, ha....don't even get me started.

I know.

reply to post by VenomVile.6


This impressed me a lot. The problem with descriptions of sightings of balls of light is that distance makes them seem small or large according to how near the object is to the viewer. I had seen what to me was a huge ball of light suddenly appear, descend and separate into smaller spheres. I thought it was breaking up, and so naturally thought of a meteor except that the light was so perfectly round and so large, but it disappeared as quickly as it came. To me, had I taken a photo of it and it was too quick for me to be that alert, it would have been three times the size of the lights in this video, but the smaller spheres would have been probably twice the size of the lights...they were quite large which to me means that they were that close or nearby...again, so what? I cannot even say for sure that they were anything but balls of light, and I have imagined how one could make jewelry items, as they make me think of pearls, and interior decorator items even. They were lovely and beautiful but what the heck, what they were is beyond my imagination.

reply to post by Subjective1

I know.

No doubt where your recently-received star came from

Project Blue Beam could be the answer!!!

I think what is important here is to stop fighting over it. Let other's believe what they want to, and you believe what you want to. Respect other's opinions even if you don't agree. The latest UFO threads are nothing but page after page of bickering and fighting back and forth like children. All you see are insults. We are adults and maybe we should consider acting like one. I used to love coming here to read but it just seems that this is all everyone wants to do right now, is fight about who is right. Before you type up a post remember that the person you are writing to is a living, breathing human being on the other side of that screen. Sometimes I really think that people forget that.

I don't care what it is, sky divers, blue beam, ET's, or awesome flashlights! The fact that we have a place to talk about these things is good. Why ruin it with attacks and trolling? Just saying.

:::stepping off soap box:::

Just look how much energy its put into by the media to cover up the small instances ...
Something is wrong, they are using all their power to hold us all in order, until its to late for us to make an Uproar.

I made this account to make a post on the main Lights over El Paso thread, but to my dismay found that it had been closed as it had been "identified" as the Golden Knights. I accepted this answer as probable, but decided to do some further looking in to the matter, and found that there are several troubling discrepancies between these videos and a Golden Knight nightjump with magnesium flares that leave me unconvinced.

The first discrepancy is that of freefall time. A Golden Knight exhibition jump is generally done from an altitude of just under 4000 meters (around 3800m to be more precise), with the jumpers opening the chute at around 600 meters, with anything less being considered increasingly dangerous. They do this for the superior air time and the ability to perform more stunts and tricks with the amount of freefall time available (just under one minute of freefall). If, in the first news video, you suppose that what we are seeing is the Golden Knights or skydivers of any kind, freefall from the beginning of the streaking magnesium to the alleged opening of the chutes would be about ten seconds of freefall, which would only be about 560m of fall for a skydiver. Could the Golden Knights be jumping from 1200m? Its possible, but unlikely. We know that the conditions for the jump were good that night, and we can know from both US Army sources and youtube videos of other Golden Knights night-time jumps that freefall is AT LEAST 20 seconds, and a jump height below 2500 meters is probably out of the question. Why? Because ten seconds of streaking magnesium is not very impressive, and the stunts they perform need time, in addition to the fact that it is much safer to jump further up.

The second discrepancy is the behavior of the magnesium flares. While at the beginning of descent, the object shows tails similar to magnesium flares, the similarities cease once the objects hover ("open chutes"). A magnesium flare would still be a fountain of sparks, and IS, as is clearly visible in other night-jump videos, but any such a fountain is absent in ANY of the videos of the lights over El Paso. They have one, single, uniform glow that is not consistent with magnesium. You could say that it was just the angle that the cameraman was at, that made is simply APPEAR to be one, uniform glow, but that does NOT explain how EVERY video presents a uniform appearance. It is very, very unlikely that every cameraman was simply at the viewing angle necessary to view the magnesium flares as a single orb. Not only that, but the magnesium flare would without a doubt light up the canopy of the parachute, and anyone who has seen a similar thing in person would be able to tell you that a similarly lit canopy is visible for miles, and the visibility and size of the "flare-trails" relative to the cameramen should indicate that they would almost certainly be able to see a lit canopy from that distance, and have it show up on video. You can see the visibility of the canopies for yourself on the many youtube videos of night-jumps.

The third discrepancy is that EVERY night diver MUST have a flashing light on him. Obviously, it won't be visible when the much brighter magnesium flares are going, but after the flares go out YOU MUST be able to see a flashing light indicating that there is an airborne object there. These lights are an FAA regulation, and the Golden Knights, nor any other reputable skydivers, would break such an obvious and important regulation. Therefore, if the lights were indeed skydivers, then the lights could NOT have simply disappeared without being replaced by flashing aircraft lights. You can clearly see the presence of these lights in other videos of the Golden Knights or any other night-jumper also. In addition, if you argue that the freefall time can be explained by them lighting their magnesium late (which is wrong, because they ignite it as they leave the plane) then they would have blinking lights visible before ignition. If the "fourth diver" had a faulty magnesium flare that only lit up after he had opened his chute, then his flashing light would have been visible prior to the flare starting up, thus making it unlikely that the fourth orb was a fourth skydiver who did not appear due to a faulty flare.

This website's motto is "DENY IGNORANCE!" I wish that some people would really consider the facts before deciding prematurely that a certain explanation fits "perfectly" and that, therefore, the anomaly has been identified. I will make no claims here about the nature of the lights over El Paso, nor their origin. My aim is to simply point out several holes in the theory that they were night-time skydivers. Yes, the Golden Knights are the most convincing explanation yet, but it is still not entirely convincing, and the lights over El Paso certainly shouldn't be treated as "identified" or "solved."

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
The first discrepancy is that of freefall time. A Golden Knight exhibition jump is generally done from an altitude of just under 4000 meters (around 3800m to be more precise), with the jumpers opening the chute at around 600 meters, with anything less being considered increasingly dangerous. They do this for the superior air time and the ability to perform more stunts and tricks with the amount of freefall time available (just under one minute of freefall). If, in the first news video, you suppose that what we are seeing is the Golden Knights or skydivers of any kind, freefall from the beginning of the streaking magnesium to the alleged opening of the chutes would be about ten seconds of freefall, which would only be about 560m of fall for a skydiver. Could the Golden Knights be jumping from 1200m? Its possible, but unlikely. We know that the conditions for the jump were good that night, and we can know from both US Army sources and youtube videos of other Golden Knights night-time jumps that freefall is AT LEAST 20 seconds, and a jump height below 2500 meters is probably out of the question. Why? Because ten seconds of streaking magnesium is not very impressive, and the stunts they perform need time, in addition to the fact that it is much safer to jump further up.

armygk.com...

Our jumps are performed from 12,500 feet above the ground.

I read somewhere that they free fall for about a minute. 120 mph / 60 = 2 miles per minute. That means they open their parachutes around 1,940 feet.

The video of the news video is NOT showing their jump from the beginning.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
The second discrepancy is the behavior of the magnesium flares. While at the beginning of descent, the object shows tails similar to magnesium flares, the similarities cease once the objects hover ("open chutes"). A magnesium flare would still be a fountain of sparks, and IS, as is clearly visible in other night-jump videos, but any such a fountain is absent in ANY of the videos of the lights over El Paso. They have one, single, uniform glow that is not consistent with magnesium. You could say that it was just the angle that the cameraman was at, that made is simply APPEAR to be one, uniform glow, but that does NOT explain how EVERY video presents a uniform appearance. It is very, very unlikely that every cameraman was simply at the viewing angle necessary to view the magnesium flares as a single orb. Not only that, but the magnesium flare would without a doubt light up the canopy of the parachute, and anyone who has seen a similar thing in person would be able to tell you that a similarly lit canopy is visible for miles, and the visibility and size of the "flare-trails" relative to the cameramen should indicate that they would almost certainly be able to see a lit canopy from that distance, and have it show up on video. You can see the visibility of the canopies for yourself on the many youtube videos of night-jumps.

There is three videos of the event. The news video is black and white, and out of focus. The other two videos are both very far away and out of focus. There is not one single video of the event that is not out of focus. Because every video is out of focus, every video is lacking the detail needed to see the "fountain" of sparks, and it just shows as a single uniform point of light. This is common for out of focus objects of light. The light blooms and creates what appears to be a round uniform point source of light.

Even then, the pyrotechnics they use do not "fountain" out as much as you think on their own. This is evident when you watch this video of them jumping the night of the "ufo". They light their pyrotechnics while still inside of the aircraft.
www.elpasotimes.com...

Combine those facts with the right angle of viewing and you have yourself what seems to be a single point source of light. Just like this video shows one or two points of light in the beginning, and this is while being in focus. If it was out of focus it would be exactly the same as all the other videos of the "UFO". Also notice, for a while you can NOT see the canopies being illuminated.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
The third discrepancy is that EVERY night diver MUST have a flashing light on him. Obviously, it won't be visible when the much brighter magnesium flares are going, but after the flares go out YOU MUST be able to see a flashing light indicating that there is an airborne object there. These lights are an FAA regulation, and the Golden Knights, nor any other reputable skydivers, would break such an obvious and important regulation. Therefore, if the lights were indeed skydivers, then the lights could NOT have simply disappeared without being replaced by flashing aircraft lights. You can clearly see the presence of these lights in other videos of the Golden Knights or any other night-jumper also.

If you watch this video:
www.elpasotimes.com...

You will see they have a red glow stick on their chest, and a green glow stick on their back. I believe this is all they need for a source of light.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
In addition, if you argue that the freefall time can be explained by them lighting their magnesium late (which is wrong, because they ignite it as they leave the plane) then they would have blinking lights visible before ignition. If the "fourth diver" had a faulty magnesium flare that only lit up after he had opened his chute, then his flashing light would have been visible prior to the flare starting up, thus making it unlikely that the fourth orb was a fourth skydiver who did not appear due to a faulty flare.

It wasn't a faulty flare. They use electronic triggering devices to light the 30 second pyrotechnics. They can even turn the electronic device off so they don't light the pyrotechnics.

Here is an explanation from the Golden Knights why the fourth person lit their pyrotechnics late.

armygk.com...

Question: (specifically about the El Paso jump Friday) Why were there three flares when the parachutes opened, then a fourth became visible after they were hovering?

Answer: During freefall, not all of the jumpers in the formation ignite their pyro sticks. One of the jumpers, SFC Arlyn Slade, waited until he was under canopy to ignite his flares because he was performing canopy relative work with his CRW partner, SSG Todd Beckel. As soon as their canopies were together, SFC Slade ignited his pyro, creating the fourth flare.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
This website's motto is "DENY IGNORANCE!" I wish that some people would really consider the facts before deciding prematurely that a certain explanation fits "perfectly" and that, therefore, the anomaly has been identified. I will make no claims here about the nature of the lights over El Paso, nor their origin. My aim is to simply point out several holes in the theory that they were night-time skydivers. Yes, the Golden Knights are the most convincing explanation yet, but it is still not entirely convincing, and the lights over El Paso certainly shouldn't be treated as "identified" or "solved."

Yes, deny ignorance by reading the topic, and researching, and finding the holes in your own posts before posting.

The truth is, we don't know when in the "jump" the filming began, however, from the lengthening of the tail we can surmise that they are accelerating and therefore would have to be early in the jump. For the record, 12,500 feet is 3810 meters, friend. All of my statements about their jumping mechanics were correct, so thank you for restating them and backing them up. It really only helps the argument that if it was indeed a night-time jump, it may have been an anomalous one.

Your videos really do not contradict my statements about the streams/fountains of sparks that magnesium flares produce.

Check out this video:


It clearly shows the long streams of sparks caused by magnesium flares, and note that when the canopy opens, the sparks continue to stream out. The still form a tail, albeit a shorter tail. However, this would be noticeable and visible from a great distance. In your second video, you can clearly see the canopy of the parachute even from a great distance.

As for the lights, chemlights (glowsticks) are for visibility to your jumpmates, not for aircraft visibility regulations. FAA regulations state that as soon as a jumper is under canopy, they must have a flashing light visible for AT LEAST three miles or 5km in every direction. Most military jumps will use lights much stronger than that, and you can see these lights clearly visible in many if not all of their night-time jump videos, and if the flares did go out so high up before reaching the ground, then the light should have been more clearly visible than any other time.

Like I said, I consider the Golden Knights explanation to be the most solid explanation, but being a true skeptic requires that we look very carefully at all the facts, and past surface resemblances. I'm not claiming that this is extraterrestrials or anything else, but merely stating that it is worth more investigation than the superficial look-over-and-dismiss it is getting (which I consider to be the ignorance we should be denying). The important thing is that we have a dialogue about these matters, and that these discrepancies can be brought up and explained.

reply to post by 0ne10

They light their pyrotechnics while still inside of the aircraft. www.elpasotimes.com...

I checked the link in the above quote looking for the verification that the Golden Knights lit their pyrotechnics while still inside their aircraft. The El Paso Times article states "Once the crew heard his response, they double-checked the straps on their parachutes and crowded toward the back of the plane. All eight gave a final salute, and in the blink of an eye they disappeared into the evening sky."

I am inquiring because of the hazards that could be created by lighting any type of pyrotechnics inside an aircraft could be devastating.

Did you mean to connect a different link to verify that statement?

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
The truth is, we don't know when in the "jump" the filming began, however, from the lengthening of the tail we can surmise that they are accelerating and therefore would have to be early in the jump.

I don't know why you are arguing. The Golden Knights themselves said it was them that night. Are you calling the Golden Knights liars?

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
For the record, 12,500 feet is 3810 meters, friend. All of my statements about their jumping mechanics were correct, so thank you for restating them and backing them up.

I know, I was just confirming it from the mouth of the Golden Knights.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
It really only helps the argument that if it was indeed a night-time jump, it may have been an anomalous one.

Nothing was anomalous about it.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
Your videos really do not contradict my statements about the streams/fountains of sparks that magnesium flares produce.

Check out this video:

It clearly shows the long streams of sparks caused by magnesium flares, and note that when the canopy opens, the sparks continue to stream out. The still form a tail, albeit a shorter tail. However, this would be noticeable and visible from a great distance. In your second video, you can clearly see the canopy of the parachute even from a great distance.

Did you totally ignore the fact that every single video of the UFO is out of focus? That would explain every an all of your tail issues. Also, the news source video does show tails, which I pointed out in the other topic.

Do you agree that these two images look similar besides the color?

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
As for the lights, chemlights (glowsticks) are for visibility to your jumpmates, not for aircraft visibility regulations. FAA regulations state that as soon as a jumper is under canopy, they must have a flashing light visible for AT LEAST three miles or 5km in every direction. Most military jumps will use lights much stronger than that, and you can see these lights clearly visible in many if not all of their night-time jump videos.

All of the jumpers had pyrotechnics. That is good enough I think. The fourth person who lit their pyrotechnics late was not visible in the original news video, so we can't see any lights they might of had. The rest of the videos were out of focus and at a far distance, so it could have contributed to not seeing any lights at all.

I will ask SGT Rachel Medley of the Golden Knights Black Team if you wish. Or you can ask her your self by posting a comment here:

armygk.com...

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
Like I said, I consider the Golden Knights explanation to be the most solid explanation, but being a true skeptic requires that we look very carefully at all the facts, and past surface resemblances.

Yes, look at ALL THE FACTS.

1: Golden Knights scheduled to jump at that location, at that time..
2: Video of Golden Knights jumping at the location and time.
3: Confirmation from the Golden Knights themselves saying it was them.
4: "Surface resemblances" to Golden Knights in videos.
5: Air show coordinators confirmed it was the Golden Knights to new reporters.
6: I personally contacted the air show directors and confirmed it was the Golden Knights.
7: The original news report itself mentions it could have been because of the air show.

All of that outweighs all the minor holes you are trying to find.

Originally posted by anuncarvedblock
I'm not claiming that this is extraterrestrials or anything else, but merely stating that it is worth more investigation than the superficial look-over-and-confirm-false it is getting (which I consider to be the ignorance we should be denying). The important thing is that we have a dialogue about these matters, and that these discrepancies can be brought up and explained.

I ask it one more time because I feel it is an important question...

The Golden Knights saw the news video, and they said "Yes, it was us." Are you insisting the Golden Knights are liars?

reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot


No... watch the video provided in that link...................................................

link.brightcove.com...

The jump they make in that video is the exact jump that created all the UFO rumors.

Originally posted by 0ne10
reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot

 

No... watch the video provided in that link...................................................

link.brightcove.com...

The jump they make in that video is the exact jump that created all the UFO rumors.

Thank you for the clarification.

I have the Flash blocked on all sites until I accept it and did not realize there was a video attached to the news article.

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
reply to post by NukeDad

 

It's not the fact of me trusting the media, but this seems to have been a fairly well known event on friday night that the local news station would have had some idea of the event. Where I live near Atlanta the local news will report that an airshow would be taking place and also report of anything related to it. So why would the local station show something that they already knew. In fact the airshow person had said it was planes that were up there practicing.
Why not say it was the GK that were jumping that night. The GK are not some elite combat unit on a mission they are members of a parachute team that don't jump in military missions. In fact a civilian with the right qualifications can join them. There is no big secret of who they are and what they do.

Also why did El Paso times remove or even plost the initial sightings to then pull them off. They knew what was going on yet they posted the initial sightings of this situation. In fact that would have been a good time to explain the things people were seeing that night.

Edit: Had something I needed to add.

edit on 19-10-2010 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)

I can't tell you where the breakdown in communication occurred at the TV station, but a producer says; "We only have ourselves to blame." Here's the link for that entry on KTSM's website:

www.ktsm.com...

Maybe the photographer was unaware of the Friday night Airsho party and was truly freaked out by the lights. Maybe the producer he called back at the station was equally ignorant of the party and equally excited, who knows. What we do know is that they had some time to fill and did a campy little piece with the X-Files theme playing in the background. It's obvious that it was a tongue in cheek story based on the news anchor's smile at the end; a light-hearted mystery piece to close a Friday night newscast.

As far as the paper goes, I don't know that they ever pulled the story off of their site. Maybe those who said it wasn't there didn't know where to look or couldn't find it. It's been there every time I've looked. Here it is:

www.elpasotimes.com...

The dateline on it is Friday night at midnight; most newspapers have a midnight deadline for everything except late sports scores and breaking news. The reason they didn't explain what was going on is because they weren't aware of the pandemonium that was starting, and even if they did, they had already gone to print.

There are hundreds of scenarios that could explain why the TV station didn't know it was the Golden Knights, or why the newspaper's website didn't do a follow up, but we'll never know. My only point was that this horse was pretty much dead and that every one should quit beating it. I understand your curiosity, but I honestly think you are looking too hard for something that isn't there.