UPDATE: (for those that think other wise) "Separation of Church and State" is a MYTH!

Another link I found and I would love to share.
Tell me what you guys think of this article
The Founding Fathers

Without separation of Church and State we would not have a free and democratic society. There is no way to ensure the liberty of those who practice minor religions or have non-mainstream religious views with preventing the government from addressing the issue of government.

And if there isn't a separation of Church and State, religion is taxable. I'd love to see all the income we'd get from the megachurch pastors that have multiple houses and a fleet of luxury cars.
I'm quite sure 'being rich means Jesus loves me' shouldn't be a defense for personal income.

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet

Personally I believe Jesus influenced American politics. Why did George Washington swear himself using a Bible and say so help me God?

Because he was a Freemason?

Did he say 'so help me Jesus'? I guess he must have been a secret Muslim then, I suppose?

Of course Christianity influences American politics. So does Islam. And Judaism. And Zoroastrianism. And Wicca. And every other belief system held by Americans.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Every thing you posted shows that religion is to be protected from the government and that the government can not FORCE any one to take part in religion if they do not want.
Our constitution was indeed founded on Judea Christian values (The Progressives have not erased all of our history yet. We can still find some of it). There fore the Ten Commandments should be allowed in Schools and Court Houses though out this Great land.
Stop being so scared, NO ONE can FORCE you to believe.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Like I said earlier. You mentioned Church. A church is a religious temple for Christians.
Come on now.

Originally posted by rnaa
The U.S. Constitution - Article VI Clause 3:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Explanation: Religion must not interfere with the Government of the United States

True Explanation: No Elected official will have to prove/disprove their religion or lack there of.
This Protects the individual: This helps an Atheist from having to profess a belief in God OR helps someone of a Muslim or other faith from having to profess a belief in a religion that is not their own in order to hold a public office.

The U.S. Constitution - 1st Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Explanation: the Government of the United State must not interfere with Religion

Good JOB!

That is about as clear as you can get about the "separation of Church and State". True, those words don't appear in the Constitution, but that is irrelevant.

OOPS, and I thought you actually understood tor a second there. Maybe this will help.
True EXPLAINATION:The Government can not make any laws forcing a religion on an individual and can not favor one religion over another; you have the freedom to exercise the religion of your choice and can talk about said religion or pray anywhere you choose. If you are offended by that......Too BAD!!! As long as you are not FORCED or COHERSED into the said religion there really is nothing to be done about it.
"Separation of Church and State" IS NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION and that, my friend, is all that is relevant in this discussion.

• Religion has no role to play in Government and
  
• Government has no role to play in Religion.
  

End of story.

you wish.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

You did mention Church and Church goes with Christianity.
What other religious place of worship were you referring to?

lol even Athiest have Church.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Atheism is not a religion. Do you even know what Atheist is? looking from your comments you don't.
What is Atheism?

Originally posted by rnaa
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Not much time to post right now. I will come back and answer the claims made by some that the First Amendment is about Separation of church and state.

The first amendment is only half of the separation of Church and State. See my post above.

So what is your point?

That the authors of the Constitution meant exactly the opposite of what they wrote and of what the States ratified? And you know this how? Have you been playing with the Ouija board a little too much lately?

You need to stop worrying about reading "post" so much and pick up the CONSTITUTION.
They meant exactly what they wrote, not the progressive spin others want it to mean.
The Constitution was written to PROTECT THE PEOPLE, NOT THE GOVERNMENT as stated in your post.
When you do read it please do so with that simple fact in mind. You might be surprised by what it says then.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
Every thing you posted shows that religion is to be protected from the government and that the government can not FORCE any one to take part in religion if they do not want.

No, had you read my post you would know that it clearly states that government cannot promote or establish a religion. It is clear, none of the quotes mentioned anything regarding the protection of religion. We are free to follow what religion we wish but we cannot promote it through our laws or through government. It is not hard to understand, and yet you appear to ignore the obvious and pretend something other.

Our constitution was indeed founded on Judea Christian values

Where again? Where is this stated in the constitution?

reply to post by Quadrivium


Gosh! You're a real head case. How about you read the constitution and see if there is any source for God there.
Linky

The Constitution never once mentions a deity, because the Founding Fathers wanted to keep their new country "religion-neutral." Our Founding Fathers were an eclectic collection of Atheists, Deists, Christians, Freemasons and Agnostics.

Misinformed post? how so?
As for the rest of your post....... Who uses the phrase "Separation of Church and State" the most?
Who do you think they mean as the "Church" in this phrase they use now so freely? I hope they mean it as Religion (of any kind) and that is how I meant it.
The fact that Christianity was (and is) the primary religion of America and many went to Christian services in the Capitol Building is how I was showing the use of this phrase to be inaccurate.
You can do better than that! I have seen you do it in other threads
If you truly did not know what I meant then I hope this post will help clarify it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Without separation of Church and State we would not have a free and democratic society. There is no way to ensure the liberty of those who practice minor religions or have non-mainstream religious views with preventing the government from addressing the issue of government.

And if there isn't a separation of Church and State, religion is taxable. I'd love to see all the income we'd get from the megachurch pastors that have multiple houses and a fleet of luxury cars.
I'm quite sure 'being rich means Jesus loves me' shouldn't be a defense for personal income.

An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

It is important to keep in mind the difference between a Democracy and a Republic, as dissimilar forms of government. Understanding the difference is essential to comprehension of the fundamentals involved. It should be noted, in passing, that use of the word Democracy as meaning merely the popular type of government--that is, featuring genuinely free elections by the people periodically--is not helpful in discussing, as here, the difference between alternative and dissimilar forms of a popular government: a Democracy versus a Republic. This double meaning of Democracy--a popular-type government in general, as well as a specific form of popular government--needs to be made clear in any discussion, or writing, regarding this subject, for the sake of sound understanding.

These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority;

source- www.lexrex.com...

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Atheism is not a religion. Do you even know what Atheist is? looking from your comments you don't.
What is Atheism?

LOL Yes I know what it is. What, you've never heard of the Athiest Church? Really?
You want to be a member of the Clergy?
Here you go firstchurchofatheism.com... , knock your self out.
Head Case indeed

OK Southern Guardian WE will take this one step at a time.
But first I think to help everyone out, I will make these two statements:
1)The UNINTED STATES OF AMERICA is a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY.
2)In order to understand the Constitution YOU MUST keep this in mind while reading it.
The following are the quotes from your post that You think proves "separation of Church and State"

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

and here

but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office

www.usconstitution.net...

OK, here we go, keep in mind Republic not Democracy,
First quote- This tells us that our Government will not make any laws favoring one religion above another and will not create a religion of their own. To Protect us, not the Government.
Second quote- To Protect Atheist or people of different faiths, not to protect the Government.

then there is this other gem right here as the result of the treaty of Tripoli:

At issue is not the treaty itself — it exists and is well-documented. What is at issue is Article 11 of that treaty, which says that the United States and Tripoli should never enter into hostilities because of religious differences. Sounds innocent enough, but the phrasing used in the preamble to the Article has made it controversial.

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," the Article begins. And so, for those who advocate for the complete separation of church and state, the article is seen as an early vindication of the position, especially since the treaty was approved by a Senate that recently approved the Bill of Rights.

www.usconstitution.net...

Hmm this one is a little sticky huh?
lol Not so much.
Article 11 of this treaty has been tossed back and forth a lot. It is not part of our Constitution but for the sake of your argument we will look at it.
We were at war with a Muslim Nation, Muslims who did not favor Christians.
Can you think of any reasons why article 11 may have been added? Be Honest.
Besides if you research it a little more you will find that in some of the translations, from that time, Article 11 is not even present.

Religion has no business dictating the function of government, period.

I never said it did.

We are not talking about some letter written to a church. We are talking about the constitution here and what was actually written in it. We are not talking about 'what he thought' or 'what comment she made' or what other nonsense you think somehow discounts our constitution. The laws are clear in the constitution, the founders did not write it up for us to pick and choose which ones we think are metaphors and not personally agreeable.

REMEMBER.......REPUPLIC.........
We actually are talking about a metaphor taken from a letter to a Church. Which is all "a wall of separation between Church and State" is, a misused metaphor, that's all.
Read the First Amendment again without doing what you are accusing me of.
With out using anything but the First Amendment or Constitution show me "separation of Church and State".

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

www.usconstitution.net...

Its a shame some religious nuts still don't get it. They wave the constitution around when it's convenient for them and then discount other parts of it when it does not suit their agenda.

Once again this is protecting the people and their right to Freedom of Religion. It is not negative towards religion in any way.

reply to post by Quadrivium

You need to stop worrying about reading "post" so much and pick up the CONSTITUTION. They meant exactly what they wrote, not the progressive spin others want it to mean. The Constitution was written to PROTECT THE PEOPLE, NOT THE GOVERNMENT as stated in your post. When you do read it please do so with that simple fact in mind. You might be surprised by what it says then.

I never said anything about the Constitution being written to protect the government from the people as you imply in your comment quoted above.

I said the Constitution demands that Religion stay out of Government AND that Government stay out of Religion. The wall has two sides.

You claim to have a beyond the grave insight into what the founding fathers intended. Well so do I.

"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

On Government Intermeddling in Religion

"I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Everyone must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:429

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

On Religion Intermeddling in Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:419

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:425

Like I said, the wall has two sides. Religion and Government do not mix well, and the founding fathers knew it all too well.

We need to remember that our forefathers came from a country that had a state religion. When the term "Separation of Church and State" was talked about it was not to keep religion out of the state but to keep the state out of religion.

This means that the state will not dictate or endorse or force a specific religion, but it doesn’t mean that religion in general has no part in our government. Except for a very few the vast majority of our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they saw this view changed to an atheist based government, so this means that our government sees that there is a god, just not how you choose to worship that god.

reply to post by Quadrivium

1)The UNINTED STATES OF AMERICA is a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY.

The United States of America is a republic AND a democracy.

Being a republic means we don't have a monarch as head of state. Period.

The form of government defined in the Constitution is a "Representative Democracy".

The word 'republic' does not imply a 'representative democracy' is operating. The North Korea is a republic, but is democratic in name only.

The phrase 'representative democracy' does not imply a Republic either. The UK, Canada, and Australia are all representative democracies but have a monarch as head of state.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Gosh! You're a real head case. How about you read the constitution and see if there is any source for God there.
Linky

The Constitution never once mentions a deity, because the Founding Fathers wanted to keep their new country "religion-neutral." Our Founding Fathers were an eclectic collection of Atheists, Deists, Christians, Freemasons and Agnostics.

The sad part is that you really do not know how wrong you are.
I don't want to argue over these things, I wish to educate, so I will try to help you.
Let us look at your link above.
So according to The Best of Craigslist our Founding Fathers wanted to keep our new Country "religion-neutral"?
That is totally wrong. They wanted to keep the new Government "Religion-Neutral". Why? To protect the people of course.
Try as they might though, some of their beliefs in God did seep through to the Constitution. Not many, only two actually, so for the most part they did a very good job. (Don't blame them, they were only human).
Here ya go:
1) Found in Article 1, Section 7, and Clause 2 which in part follows: “If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law,” The Constitution honors the Christian Sabbath. The President was given 10 days to sign a bill into law. The counting of the 10 days does not include the Sabbath.
2) The delegates signed the Constitution in the “Year of our Lord.” This is a direct reference to Christianity. This is found in Article 7
The Constitution was written to Protect America's People, Not America's Government.
America was founded as a Nation of Christians. How ever to protect future generations it was not founded as a Christian Nation.