UPDATE: (for those that think other wise) "Separation of Church and State" is a MYTH!

There Is No "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution.
It was only a metaphor ( "Wall of Separation between Church and State" ) used by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury baptist church,
Do you know that the Capitol building was used as a church, For Years!!
How about the fact that Jefferson was a regular member, who would not miss a service no matter the weather conditions?
Any of this sound familiar?
If not, then do some research.
So where does "separation of Church and State" come into effect? We have presidents from Jefferson through Abraham Lincoln, and Members of Congress attending service in the CAPITOL BUILDING!
Was this separation of Church and State?
We as Americans should also look to our history if we have questions concerning how to interpret the Constitution.
I think that if we look at history we will see that these men had no intentions of keeping every aspect of religion out of government. No, what they wanted was to keep the church from becoming the state.
Even with public prayer, nativity scenes, the cross and the Ten Commandments the church and state are still separate.
The Church is not the government and the government is not the church. The Bill of Rights prevents this but at the same time we have the right of "free exercise"
The Constitution of the United States is not a living document that changes as many claim. It means today exactly what it meant when it was penned, unless it is amended.

Here, let me help you start your research www.wallbuilders.com...

That doesn't make the United States a Christian Nation though. There are numerous laws going against a State Church!
Seperation of Church and State in the United States

You got the First Amendment.
First Amendment

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here. But if our founders wanted to be a Christian nation then it would be publicly known already.
U.S. is not a Christian Nation

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

No, America is not a Christian Nation

When the First Congress subsequently wrote the Bill of Rights in 1789, one of the main objectives was to confirm that the new republic was anchored first and foremost in religious freedom. It is no wonder, then, that the very first freedom listed in the Bill of Rights is freedom of religion. And religious freedom was given pride of place for a reason: to signal clearly to Americans that gone were the days of living under the thumb of an oppressive regime that dictated religious thought. Later in 1797, the United States ratified a series of treaties with representatives of the Muslim world. In one of those treaties, the Treaty of Tripoli, the United States Congress affirmed “the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Christianty Vs. the U.S. Constitution

Is America a Christian Nation?
U.S. principles are not founded of Christianity
Another link!

Religious conservatives argue the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be a Judeo-Christian country. But President Obama is right when he says it isn't.

One last link

Religion is just a tool used by TPTB to manipulate the masses. It's been working pretty good for thousands of years, so I doubt that they will start treating people with dignity and respect all of a sudden now. Sorry if they harshes your mellow, but that's how they work.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
There Is No "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution/

I think it's rather clear here:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

and here

but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office

www.usconstitution.net...

and then there is this other gem right here as the result of the treaty of Tripoli:

At issue is not the treaty itself — it exists and is well-documented. What is at issue is Article 11 of that treaty, which says that the United States and Tripoli should never enter into hostilities because of religious differences. Sounds innocent enough, but the phrasing used in the preamble to the Article has made it controversial.

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," the Article begins. And so, for those who advocate for the complete separation of church and state, the article is seen as an early vindication of the position, especially since the treaty was approved by a Senate that recently approved the Bill of Rights.

www.usconstitution.net...

Religion has no business dictating the function of government, period.

It was only a metaphor ( "Wall of Separation between Church and State" ) used by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury baptist church,

We are not talking about some letter written to a church. We are talking about the constitution here and what was actually written in it. We are not talking about 'what he thought' or 'what comment she made' or what other nonsense you think somehow discounts our constitution. The laws are clear in the constitution, the founders did not write it up for us to pick and choose which ones we think are metaphors and not personally agreeable.

Do you know that the Capitol building was used as a church, For Years!

And this is suppose to trump the constitution?

How about the fact that Jefferson was a regular member, who would not miss a service no matter the weather conditions?

And? He was a religious man but at the same time respected that religion was a personal matter.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

www.usconstitution.net...

Its a shame some religious nuts still don't get it. They wave the constitution around when it's convenient for them and then discount other parts of it when it does not suit their agenda.

then do some research.

Right.

Before this becomes an argument. I would like to say we should respect one another here. What's the point of being childish over the internet? I would also like to say I respect the Original Poster's religious beliefs.

There is actually a good argument for both really. Although I would change the aspects of what the Government is to what the People were and still mainly are today.

While the Government itself, using the Constitution as a guide is secular in nature. It holds no religion to be 'the' religion. It was the goal of the Founding Fathers to be very cautious in the creation of a very neutral framework.

So yes, the argument would stand that the 'Government', that which is constructed and framed by the Constitution is not Christian. This is not to say though that the People are not. As the People are the government in a Republic.

The questions though that come to mind are such:

Does printing "In God We Trust" upon our money violate the First Amendment clause of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."?

In that respect, I would say no as it does not establish any religion nor has Congress imposed a law pressing the People or States into any particular religion. It is merely a testament to the historical cultural of the United States of America; that its people traditional profess their faith as Christian.

Does dismantling long standing tradition of the People, such as courthouse that display the Ten Commandments violate the same clause?

This, as we have seen in the past few years has been hotly debated. The mere display does not violate the First Amendment as there is no law created by Congress that mandates each courthouse must display this Christian icon.

All in all, there is much more to this debate and discussion than the simple notions of the Untied States of America is a Christian Nation. As a nation, which is made of its people, not the Government it is quite Christian in professed belief. The Government itself is secular and neutral to that fact and should remain so.

The U.S. Constitution - Article VI Clause 3:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Explanation: Religion must not interfere with the Government of the United States

The U.S. Constitution - 1st Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Explanation: the Government of the United State must not interfere with Religion

That is about as clear as you can get about the "separation of Church and State". True, those words don't appear in the Constitution, but that is irrelevant.

The Constitution unambiguously and unequivocally says that

• Religion has no role to play in Government and
  
• Government has no role to play in Religion.
  

End of story.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Great find,star and flag for you,but...
The God haters won't care,won't listen and
will all band together to blast your beliefs.

Not much time to post right now. I will come back and answer the claims made by some that the First Amendment is about Separation of church and state.
I see that a lot of you are so blinded by your hatred of Christianity that you did not read the OP.
I did not mention Christianity in the OP.
Lol the funny thing is that most of the post thus far only prove my point. They say the same thing as the OP.
Be back later. This should prove enlightening and educational.

reply to post by mamabeth


How can I hate God when I don't believe in God?
What God are you talking about?

reply to post by Quadrivium


You did mention Church and Church goes with Christianity.
What other religious place of worship were you referring to?

I think it's blatantly obvious the founding fathers were trying to prevent the government from imposing a single dominant religion upon the people. That's why many people came to America, because they wanted freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. It has nothing to do with removing any sign of religion from government or government buildings.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Are we feeling a bit paranoid?I don't recall ringing
your bell...
No one wants a church run government like iran.
Now,when Yeshua returns,that is a different story!

reply to post by mamabeth


Yeshua? Who is Yeshua? Are you referring to Jesus who never fulfilled the Messiah concept? If Jesus was real and he died and then the resurrection happened. Why didn't the rapture happened then and there? I mean why do we have to wait?

reply to post by Quadrivium

Not much time to post right now. I will come back and answer the claims made by some that the First Amendment is about Separation of church and state.

The first amendment is only half of the separation of Church and State. See my post above.

So what is your point?

That the authors of the Constitution meant exactly the opposite of what they wrote and of what the States ratified? And you know this how? Have you been playing with the Ouija board a little too much lately?

Personally I believe Jesus influenced American politics. Why did George Washington swear himself using a Bible and say so help me God?

reply to post by Quadrivium


Good post, and very accurate. Too many these days want to claim a "freedom from religion", when in fact we have "freedom of religion". Plus, I see the usual "Christian nation" stuff coming out. The fact is, the government is not a Christian organization, and no one is claiming that it should be. However, the nation WAS founded on Christian principles, and denying that is denying history. What some seem unable to understand is that those Christian forefathers understood that people have the right to CHOOSE. They didn't try and force their beliefs on anyone, but that doesn't mean the principles they espoused, and many of our laws, are not based on their Christian beliefs. That is the reason we see displays of the Ten Commandments, or have "In God we trust" on our money, etc. The Declaration of Independence makes it clear:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Would friend you along with the star for the post, but that feature seems to be missing.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Sorry you're incorrect on all that. I don't see how it's so hard to read a book about history; then listen to the words some pastor told you.
Is America a Christian Nation?
Was the United States founded on Christianity?
We Were never a Christian Nation
America is not a Christian Nation
United States not founded on Christian politics
America is not a Christian Nation
No, America was not founded on Christian morals
Our founders were not Christian
The Christian Nation myth
America and Christianity?
Christianty VS. The U.S. Constitution

All these links prove the United States is not a Christian country.
In God we trust has been used since the middle of the 1860's. A long way since the beginning of this country.
in God we Trust?

Originally posted by Quadrivium
Not much time to post right now. I will come back

Well your thread will be waiting.

I see that a lot of you are so blinded by your hatred of Christianity

I'm a Christian, I make an effort to attend church every week. Just because I am a Christian does not mean I tolerate religious fanatism, neither does that mean I support Christianity interfering with government or any other religion. Try to come up with a better counter argument other than to label everybody as anti-christian.

that you did not read the OP.

Neither did I mention christianity specifically in my first reply to you. That being said, we all know full well that when you decided to post this thread it was not under in intention of promoting the rights of islam to establish influence in our government. Also at the fact you referenced christian and church in your OP. So please don't play the fool.

educational

That is very funny coming from you after the misinformed OP you posted.

But anyway, your thread will be waiting.

well the op is not misinformed.....

fact this nation was founded by who now? who were those people that sailed all the way from europe so they could practice their beief in god? pilgrims wasnt it?

interestingly enough those pilgrims broke away from the church to live their lives from the bible.......

to say that this country wasnt founded on christian principles well isnt accurate......

that freedom of religion is exactly that to pursue your own faith how you see fit.....

that freedom from religion is what it has exactly become just a slogan that people use to bash christianity.

the op is right the founders were men of faith and the majority of this nations presidents have been men of faith

the capitol building was used as a church....... these are facts people you can try to argue them....

but when you sit there and impose your views of religion over someone who has another school of thought.....

well thats exactly what the constitution is for..............people are free to beleive and worship as they see fit

and you people are free to dismiss and rant on about how evil christianity is.....

thats what that means freedom of religion..........