J-13 and XXJ!!!

xbin - the reason why most Americans get jittery when China/Russia make a new plane is because those are the only realistic rivals we have. The fact that your government uses our planes as a "scale" to decide effectiveness worries some people, because they see this as a form of aggression (trying to 'one up' our planes). In reality, your government does this for many reasons, such as the fact that the US is considered the gold standard of combat aircraft and also that there will be quite a few JSF sold to other countries, so it makes sense that they have something comprable.

As I see it, it is a mixture of a lot of things - China wishes to modernize and be a future competitor of the US, China also realizes that there is quite a bit of money in the selling of combat aircraft and if they could produce one which matches (or aproaches) the JSF at a cheaper price, many countries would buy it over the more expensive American product. I'll take it under the assumption that "imitation is the highest form of flatery" and say that they see us as the best, and so wish to be equal.

But really, it is an agressive move on Chinas part. It shows that China wishes to challenge the US for military domination. This could end up being the cold war II, with Russias ever improving economy letting it jump in as well. Only time will tell.

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by WestPoint23
we have nothing to fear by the time the chinese get the J-13 15-20 years rom now we weill ave something better than the F-22

Accutaly US gets new aircraft fighters every 25 years or so.

And you never know what will be left of the world in 20 years.

Out,
Russian

Sorry - did you say every 25 years? Cause we just got the Raptor, and in about 10 years the JSF will be deploid.

A little history of US aircraft deployment:
We will start off with the F-14 entering service in 1973
then ther is the F-15 in 1974
F-16 in 1979
F-18A/B models in 1983
F-18C/D in 1987
F-18 Superhornet in 1995
F-22 now
-35 slated early next decade

Now that is jjust a small sample of what we have had since 1974. you said 1 every 25 years. Well, in the last 25 years I count 4, starting with the F-16 (making the difference in the F-18 only between the hornet and superhornet, because the superhornet was the only one actually redesigned). So thats one every 6-7 years.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by American Mad Man]

American Mad Man - thanks for your reply, your reply makes sense to me,
but you also forget China's government has said many times that China
will never attend any arm race.

In cold war, the race between USA and USSR is a good example, USA may
be only used half of its strength, but USSR need to run at full speed in
order to match it. Although USSR did a good job in arm race, but finally
their whole vehicle shattered. China's situation is even worse than fomer
USSR, I guess USA just need its 1/4th strength to keep China need to
run at its full speed, it is not USA, but China can not afford it.

Also many of the core technology is actually in USA's hand. Like Super
Computer, China now has its home made which enter the world's Top
10, this only suggest that China has very good system engineering
force, but its CPU comes from AMD. With Core technology in other
people's hand, how far China can go actually has its limit.

I think some USA people feel nervous is because of your "zero casualty"
theory. If you go to war, you need to prepare the death. Want
"zero casualty" only makes USA people feel nervous whenever other
people made progress. So in your eye, you have machine gun, but
other people just have a pistol is also a threat.

But thanks for your reply.

You're welcome

As for your "zero casualty" theory, I could not agree more. The US has a very hard time dealing with large numbers of dead men ever since 'nam. Most Americans believe in being the strongest military to protect our country - this is why Vietnam and Iraq are causing political problems (at least with the left wing cowards, but thats a different story all together). The analogy between the US having a machine gun and being afraid of those with pistols has some basis. The only thing I can say though is that China is a nuclear power, and thus they are our millitary equal at the highest level, even if they are not at the lower levels.

American Man look at the generations.

I am talking about generations.

Out,
Russian

Originally posted by Russian
American Man look at the generations.

I am talking about generations.

Out,
Russian

Fair enough, but then by that same line of thought, how often does ANY country get new generations?

China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015. It has been codenamed XXJ by US's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). J-12 is destined to be China's top-end fighter along with the Su-30MKK when it will be introduced.


For now, China's top-end plane remains J-10, which is basically an Israeli airframe with Russian engines. It is still under development and it is expected that Russian content will increase extensively as the development progresses.

China has developed close ties with Russia's aerospace industry and has license produced many fighters including MiG-21 and Su-27. Their FC-1/Super 7 design is based on MiG-33 (which was rejected by Soviet Air Force). Earlier Chinese planes are the Q-5 Fantan, J-8 Finback and FBC-1. The FBC-1 was their latest attempt, and was'nt successful - the Su-27 filled in for it. Considering their track record, it may well be possible that the J-12 ends up being a re-christened MiG MFI. MAPO-MIG is already involved in the J-10 program. MFI is one of the world's 5th generation designs. However, considering the project's timeframe, it seems unlikely (they would'nt need 15 years to do this).


MiG's MFI project, (project 1.42) was first unveiled to the public in 1999. The production of this promising design unforunately was cancelled due to lack of funds.



Not much is known about J-12 right now - the aircraft is still going through initial work. The project is at is where the USAF ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter) Program, which lead to the F-22A, was in ~1983. Virtually everything is still wide open. Sources within combat aircraft manufacturer Chengdu confirm that it is looking at a twin-engined design and that they are examining both single and two crew configuration.


Stealthiness is an integral part of all new fighter designs and J-12 is no exception. The engines are most likely to be Russian with Thrust Vectoring. Stealth and thrust vectoring are two features that are a must in all aircraft being designed today. Interestingly, Chinese aircraft designers will actually perform a 'generation leap' if J-12 goes into service with PLAAF. All aircraft produced in China before (apart from licenced Su-27) have been 3rd generation aircraft. Chengdu will have to take Western/Israeli/Russian help to make J-12 truly 5th generation.

J-12's immediate rival will be India's MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft). It too is expected to be a 5th generation aircraft. While the fate of MCA is not clear, J-12 is probably under active development.

China has been offered 'joint development and production' of a new 5th generation fighter by Russia . Russia has been trying to sell this concept both to China and India for some time, but neither of them as committed fully - yet. The PAK FA will 'counter' America's second 5th gen Joint Strike Fighter [JSF]. As of now it seems that India will be Russia's partner but no deals have been signed yet.

Note: The J-12 designation was previously applied to an aircraft built at Nanchang in the late 1970s, with only one or two airframes being constructed prior to the program's cancellation.

It might look like this :

another pic

Dude, it's not even sure you can MAN the F-22. At 300 Million a piece it's hard to churn em out by the hundreds, eh?

A very very rare unclear pic of one of the J-12 prototypes

Originally posted by necro99
Dude, it's not even sure you can MAN the F-22. At 300 Million a piece it's hard to churn em out by the hundreds, eh?

First all the pics that stealth spy posted are not coming up and also 300Mil actually its half that ok and once production starts the price always goes down.


[edit on 11-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

What the....?

My pics dont come up ??

Anyway here are links to the pics :

1

2

3, the rare one

I hope that does it

Visit

www.janes.com...

for more info

Another prototype pic



Link to pic for Westpoint : www.janes.com...

from the first three pics the plane looks like a mix of the F/A-18 and the F-15 and when you go to the link you have to click go on the address bar to see the pics.

[edit on 11-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

I dont know.......

But it works fine on my comp

here is a realli rare pic of the J-XX.
pic.tiexue.net...

and for all the info on Chinese millitary go to
www.sinodefence.com
here u will see everythign that the chinese have

Design number two (Upper Right) looks like the took an F-22 and traced it onto a blueprint and called it their own. Another example of reverse engineering by the Chinese