J-13 and XXJ!!!

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by SABRE
I doubt switch blades existance & even if it does I dnt see anu use of it with U-2 & SR-71 BlackBird serving in Recond department & B-1, B-2 serving in bombing department.

I don't know what you mean by doubting it's existance? If you mean the design, well, you are just wrong. Check the US patent office. It is not a black project.

If you mean an actual working aircraft, then I tend to agree with you.

The switchblade would not perform any of the tasks that the planes you mentioned do. It would be a high speed fighter bomber, able to fly undetected through enemy airspace at great speed, and atttack a ground target while also being able to go head to head with any enemy fighter it came across.

I don't know where you are getting the recon mission - I have never heard of that

I ment the second...actual AirCraft.....almost every one in the military avaiation industry knws that switchblade plans were there.
It is considered as RECON AC cause NASA wants/wanted it to fly high altitute & USAF wants/wanted it to fly high altitude undetected...So the 1st impression was that it was successor of U-2 & SR-71 (Which it still could be) but than reports came out saying that switchblade will be used as replacement of B-2 Bombers which are on stealth but cant fly high altitude & super sonic speed.

Anyways a NASA version could still be a RECON AC....that is if Switchblade exists or is going to.

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RajKhalsa I wont tell u what I do but I'll tell u this, when Chinese & Pakistanis make any weapon or AirCraft I am one of the 1st guys to come to knw abt it..even before the project is physicaly started.

PAK-FA is nothing but S-40 BIRKUT with wings swept back again....dnt act like an Indian patriotic guy, become emotional & attack a Pakistani guy. Be reasonable. I stopped being that when I was a kid, R u still a kid???
Ask ur on Aviation experts (that is if u knw any of them) they'll tell u the same thing that it is based on Birkut.

Now being rational Birkut is a great AC, it could have had an immidiate success equalent to F-22. But it had its bad luck. The swept forward wings made the ntire AC unstable which was good cause it gave it super manuverbility but it failed to deliver weapons. 1st impression was that it was cause of the swept 4ward wings but than a swept back ward wing design was tested on Super Computer Sim & all physics laws were applied. The Aircraft simply lost its Super manuverbility, & yet again showed failure to deliver weapons properly. Although the error was technical, found & corrected but the entire project lost its importance.

Almost all the Military Aviation companies release their informations & reports on various topics & problems to their govt (I doubt if there is any company which doesnt)....& if ur an influencial person u can get them no matter in what country u r...I got some of the Russian reports in 2003-4. They were from Mikayon Growich Corp (MiG Corp) & SUKHIO Industries (makers of Su-24, 25, 27/30/35/37, 34 & S-40 Birkut)......It is clearly & publicaly mentioned in Sukhio reports that PAK-FA is a swept backed version of S-40. Because the design had to be changed the AC has lost many of its super features. According to that report by taking the wings backwards the AC turns back into Su-27/30 with stealth capability but performance will remain same. Hence S-40 is nothing but stealthy Su-27/30 with swept back wings & internal Bomb-Bay there fore PAK-FA would be Su-27/30 with internal bombay & stealth capability. It will be immidiate success over LockHeed-Martin's JSF-35 but will be no where near to F/A-22.
PAK-FA will have greater Air To Air attack than JSF-35 but when matched against F/A-22 it would give F-22 some fight but still come out looser.

Russians should have lernt from Americans. When USAF found that YF-23 shares features from X-29 project they just rejected it, other wise YF-23 is the only AC which can scare F-22 pilot. In some areas YF-23 is superior to F-22.
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abt Pakistan helping China with J-XX...its an old news & even Indians knw it. It was even made public...this is during the time when Clinton visited India. USA warned Pakistan of participating with China on any of such projects but with all the sanctions already on Pakistan did not care & went ahead. Few months back Italian team visited Pakistan for radar deals & on behalf of China Pakistan asked for some short assistance for J-XX project, similar requests were made from France. Both countries agreed to consider when EU would lift the ban on arms sales to China. Now that EU has agreed Italy & France r showing their interests but the thing is China has managed the project alone infact WS-10 Engines r ready & are now functional on some of the J-10s. China has also completed the new Radar.

Both WS-10 & new un-named radar would be placed on J-10 which will make it better than Su-27 (this has lead China to cancel Su-27 production cause they can make some thing even better)....the new CAC program of light weight AC is also almost complete & is said to be better than Su-30MKI...& offcourse J-XX.....it is no where close to F-22 but would give alot of scare to LockHeed-Martin's JSF-35.

Russia at 1st had asked China to get into joint venture for PAK-FA as they had superior aviation industry compared to India but with J-XX already approaved China rejected the participation but than Indians joined in & promissed financial venture only while Russia will take care of technical.

I guess u ppl (Indians) r realy getting scared of China's success in advanced military aircraft production & its promiss to Pakistan to provide them as well with these AirCrafts. According to JANES since J-XX might be supported by some of the western countries it is probably going to be better than PAK-FA, besides that Chinese r 5 yrs ahead of Russians.

Now be reasonable person & dnt judge every thing emotionaly & go anit-china & Pakistan.

I have my touch with AirCrafts for a long time now & I have sources at some of the big aviation companies....all though I am more concerned with Wind Tunnel only I do get the taste of Avionics, Specifications, & the complete AirCraft.

Since 1998-99 (age 18) I have been in the cockpit of F-7PG, Q-5, F-16, Super Muhahq, K-8 of PAF, from PLAAF I have had my butt into Su-27, JH-7, J-8 & witnessed the flight of JF-17/FC-1 in Pakistan & visited J-10 in person.

I got into the cocket of Russian Su-37 (verient of Su-30) in Brazil & Russian pilots gave me complete tour of Su-37's cocket & 3 yrs back I flew for the 1st time in the fighter jet, a MiG-29, in Moscow with a Co. Russian pilot. I flew for 20 mins....18 mins the Russian co. pilot flew & let me fly for 2 mins. The greatest experiance of life time. Those pilots gave me SUKHIO & MiG Corp. Reports.

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That above pic of J-XX is fake...its streached out MiG-29... J-XX has thick nose & cockpit section, the mid section is curves down & tail is supported by two tilted tail wings....It will either remind u off a dinosour or a flying lizard. J-XX has no canards so if u see any J-XX pic with canards its fake.

Chinese kids have habit of releasing fake pics....they even edited the pic of EF-2000 & called it J-10 while J-10 dint even come close to the resemblance. There is only one official pic of J-XX & one official model that u see abpve.

The canard Aircraft is MiG-1.42, which is a failed project but as a tech demon has given away a great technology out look. MiG will soon be releasing a desing based on MiG-1.42 for the 5th Gen AC that will actualy be equalent to F-22. It is said to be better than Chinese J-XX, PAK-FA, JSF-35, & may can easily go against EF-2000 & Rafale & give them a good fight. It would be the only fighter that would force an F-22 into a Dog Fight. It is said that the new MiG (right now refered to as "Super MiG" ) would have a picture radar being developed by MiG corp...it will flash lights & with in seconds bring in clear pics of any thing in the skies. Since F-22s r stealth, the pic radar will be the only thing to detect it. Once on picture the radar will indicate the possition from where the pic was taken. This radar will also work at night (Chinese r also saud to be making such radaer but niether I nor the ppl i knw in this field have any info n this)

[edit on 14-3-2005 by SABRE]

Actually there are four competing designs for J-XX program. The different pictures could be artist impressions of any of those four and those four look completely different. You're not completely correct.

Originally posted by COWlan
Actually there are four competing designs for J-XX program. The different pictures could be artist impressions of any of those four and those four look completely different. You're not completely correct.

I dnt knw if there "WERE" 4 competing designs or more or less...but there were few...all were tested on computer to see if stealth if achievable on any. Only 2 passed. The rest of the designs were disposed & the one that was passed got leaked out. I thought there is only one origional artistic impression but my friend showed me an other "PROPER" design of J-XX.

May be the other pics exist & the one on the net & on this thread are those, but they r not what J-XX is going to be or look like.

Here r the pics of J-XX which may resemble with the origional (Again sorry for miss informing that J-XX has no Canards, it may or may not)





NOTE:
I doubt that these r J-XX...my believe still is that this is CAC's new light weight fighter jet which I call J-X....J-X is superior to Su-30 series of Russia but has no competition with F-22s nor I think that J-XX would be any good against F-22s.

Following is the one of the origional pics released by China....This one had no canards at 1st but now China has fitted it with them. This is how according to my sources J-XX is going to be:




Once again the 1st two pics I believe r of the CAC's new light weight combat fighter which is being built in competition to Su-30, but there r some signs of stealth design which makes me confuse, may be this could be the design approaved for J-XX but as far as my sources inside China & out side China tell me the 3rd pic is the real deal.

All pics r COURTOSY of www.defencetalk.com ... I did took the liberty of posting them here but please do not copy it to some other place.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by SABRE]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I've been saying this for a while, but China is going to need to come out with 2 generations of aircraft before they can truely compete. You know what they say - practice makes perfect.

um how is it 2 generations
we already has the J-10 and thats 3rd generation aircraft so is the FB fighters

Originally posted by WestPoint23
yeah but they are not making stuff by them selfs they are getting russian stuff so you cant say the chinese are making progress if they cant make __________by them selfs.

\



no we dont not...
at least not anymore only the su-30s are like the only aircraft we buy from them now. also we make our own aircrafts since the start os 90s its just that china came up a little 2 fast no 1 want to belive us. and the photo that u guys saw on tv of chinas city they never show the advance part of the city they always shot the part where is poor and stuff.

Originally posted by waynos
while your critique of the drawing is spot on I do wonder whether the real plane will bear any resemblance to it at all, you only have to look at all the 'fantasy' ATF drawings the US corporations issued in the mid/late '80's which threw people off the scent of the F-22 nicely.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by waynos]

Very true - I will concede, an aircraft design does change, often drastically, from the first renderings to the final design.

Even so, do you honestly believe that China can put out an aircraft that uses state of the art stealth technology?

I mean to date, from what WE KNOW (not some could be/would be plasma BS) stealth technology is based on 5 main factors.

1) Low RCS due to shape. This is probably the most simple modern way to make an aircraft stealthy. All new aircraft make use of this, by taking away right angles, and reducing the reflective surface of aircraft.

2) Low RCS due to materials. THIS is the most important aspect. It is what seperates the US aircraft from the rest of the world. The thing is, there is absolutely NO WAY TO GET AROUND THE PRICE. It is simply the most expensive part of making a stealth aircraft, and also the most important. The materials and manufacturing techniques are just very expensive. This is what drives the price of stealth aircraft up. Now, if the US had so many problems building the Raptor after using these techniques on the F-117 and B-2 (not to mention other stealth aircraft that never even made it into service), how does China realistically keep the price equal to (much less under) that of the Raptor with no prior experience?

Simply put, it is going to be MORE expensive for them just because they have much less experience in the field. Factor in the fact that even China's economy is many times smaller then that of the US - how in the world will they pay for these aircraft.

3) Thermal Stealth. Again, they could change the aircraft, but how much money are they going to sink into this aspect of the aircraft. It has no indications of any kind of thermal reduction, much less heat reduced engine configuration with a cooling system while also allowing for 2D thrust vectoring.

4) accoustic stealth. The engines are not in any way designed to dampen a sonic boom (and niether are the Raptors from what I know) so this aplies to niether aircraft.

5) Visual stealth. Paint schemes can cover this of course, but so can shape (as the BOP proves with it's shadow reducing shape). Niether aircraft shows any sign of this, and I doubt very much that China would invest so much money into this when they have yet to come out with a single aircraft based on radar stealth.

In short, aircraft design is based on levels of advancement and money, and China is significantly behind in both areas.

Originally posted by dragon slayer19900314

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I've been saying this for a while, but China is going to need to come out with 2 generations of aircraft before they can truely compete. You know what they say - practice makes perfect.

um how is it 2 generations
we already has the J-10 and thats 3rd generation aircraft so is the FB fighters

And the Raptor is a 5th gen aircraft. 3+2=5. At that point the US will probably still be ahead by a little, but the gap will have closed.

Listen - I do not doubt your contries potential, OK.

I have no doubt that given time they will compete on an equal playing field, and perhaps even surpass the US.

The thing is, you need to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.

The simple fact is that the J-10 is a rip off of 2 different aircraft.

That is not to fault China. It is a short cut, and any country with half a brain would do the exact same thing.

However, your country has yet to put out a modern aircraft that rivals the best in the field, and to be blunt the best in field are US aircraft.

They need to get to the point where they are putting out aircraft that are original, and have original technology before you can make a comparison to the US.

Again, this is not ment to slight China. They simply have much less experience at making cutting edge aircraft. If the US was in Chinas position it would be the same situation (as it was in WWII vs the Germans in respect to tanks for instance - German tanks were something like 3 to 1 favorites because they were so much better).

Think of China as a young athlete with a lot of talent going up against a seasoned superstar.

Their talent may be equal - in fact the younger guy may have more talent - but the experience that the veteran athlete has is a bit too much to overcome for the wonderkind. Given time, the young athlete may become the equal or even surpass the seasoned pro, but he stands no chance in his rookie season.

Like I said, give China 15-25 years and they will be more or less at the same level as the US.

And, for the third and final time (at the risk of sounding pathetic ) I do NOT mean this as a slight at China. Far from it. I just think that realistically, they just don't have the technical experience of the US. The US has been doing all of this much longer then China and we have sunk untold BILLIONS into this. China will have to pay it's dues to catch up to the US. If it wishes to excede it, then it must become original.

Originally posted by SABRE
I ment the second...actual AirCraft.....almost every one in the military avaiation industry knws that switchblade plans were there.
It is considered as RECON AC cause NASA wants/wanted it to fly high altitute & USAF wants/wanted it to fly high altitude undetected...So the 1st impression was that it was successor of U-2 & SR-71 (Which it still could be) but than reports came out saying that switchblade will be used as replacement of B-2 Bombers which are on stealth but cant fly high altitude & super sonic speed.

Anyways a NASA version could still be a RECON AC....that is if Switchblade exists or is going to.

Understood on the first point I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

As for the switchblade and what it was built for, I must dissagree.

The switchblade, as far as my understanding goes, was strictly as a fighter/bomber. Let me explain if I may.

Look at the aircraft and what it can do. It is a high performance aircraft, no doubt. But what does it do that would be an improvement on either the U2 or SR-71?

Honestly, not a single thing. The U2 already flies at about 70,000 feet, the SR-71 was rated at 100,000+ feet.

The switchblade, like the F-15 and other top of the line fighters, would probably not be able to go over 80,000 feet - if that high at all.

The switchblade has a top DASH speed of Mach 3. That is simply all out thrust, and can not be continued throughout all of the aircrafts flight. The SR-71 could fly ABOVE Mach 3 for HOURS on end.

Compared to the SR-71, it would be a down grade. It would have a lower altitude, a slower speed and a smaller mission radius (do to being a much smaller aircraft and thus having smaller fuel tanks).

An upgrade over the U2? Maybe - but lets not forget, the U2 has not been the main recon aircraft since the 1960's - that was the blackbirds job, and it was never defeated by any enemy. The U2 is used as a recon aircraft today once the main defences are taken out.

Now, the B-2 is even more simple to disprove.

The B-2 is a strategic nuclear bomber. Simply put, the switchblade in no way what-so-ever could fill it's mission profile simply because of it's size.

The B-2 can carry tens of thousands of pounds of bombs. It can carry many nuclear weapons at a time.

The switchblade simply can not do this. It would be lucky to carry a single nuclear weapon much less tens of thousands of pounds of ordinance.


IMHO the switchblade was designed as an attack aircraft, to penetrate enemy lines and hit high value ground targets without escort.

And to further narrow it down, my suspicion is that the switchblade would be a naval aircraft rather then an airforce one. That kind of versatility would be valued MUCH more by the Navy because of the limited number of aircraft that can be carried on an aircraft carrier.

Also, one must look at the veriable geometry wings, which would allow slow speed landings on an aircraft carrier with the wings all the way out.

American Mad Man...I am starting to get the point here of SwitchBlade...Its like USA has got an Stealth Air-To-Air Superiority AirCraft inform of F-22, Its got stealth bombers, B-1 & B-2, U r working on production of Semi-Stealth multi-role AirCraft JSF-35. But the only AirCraft varient that is not stealth is a ground attack AirCraft (E.g A-10) so switch blade could be the new stealth Ground Attack AirCraft that USAF might use in future.

To tell u simply USA wont need any type of other AirCraft after F-22 & JSF-35. Once F-22 goes air borne it will ensure that skies r clean once it is done it is safe for non stealthy multi role Air Crafts F-18s, F-16s & non stealthy ground atttack AirCraft like A-10 to go perform their jobs.

AirCrafts like A-10, Su-25 & Q5 only require AirSuperiority prior to their mission so they r not bothered when they bomb the hell out of ground targets like tanks & etc.

The plans for SwitchBlade may be there but I still dnt see the need of any other costly AirCraft for USA specialy when F-22s have just started to come out of production line.

Anyways I like this discussion on switchblade lets take it to the Switchblade thread (if there is any, otherwise make one) & keep this tread clean for J-XX.

AMM, in reply to your point to me, no I don't think the J-XX will be a state of the art stealth fighter by any means, for exactly the reasons you posted.

I just think that the picture being bandied about is nothing more than an artists render, the purpose of which is entirely in order to give eager observers something to latch on to while the real and different design (better than the drawing which looks very 1977 to me) is done privately.

Like the USSR China has a history of keeping its secrets until it is good and ready. It took the west until 1980 to get a picture of the MiG 19 based A-5 Fantan which was nothing special even then.

Thats why I think that discussions of the J-XX based upon the pictures we have are entirely spurious and we might as well discuss the merits of the Enterprise-E, or should I make that Type 40 TARDIS in keeping with my avatar

SABRE, If I was a betting man I would say that the Switchblade project has been canned because of whatever reasons ( problems when the airflow over the wing is asked to change direction completely during transition from FSW to delta configuration perhaps?) and the lack of any further progress on the design is the reason we see the identical F/A-37 Talon prop in the movie 'Stealth'.

I have no hard facts to back this up of course, it is just a theory of mine.

My believes r too that SB got canned. So far all the swept forward wing designed ACs have failed in delivering the weapons properly. So I dnt believe that even SB can perform with such a design.

Anyways for those who suspect China's stealth technology let them give a small info. J-XX project came in when China started to believe that both S-40 Birkut & MiG-1.42 r going to be successful ACs. Since China saw it as a potential threat (that is if Russia sold them to anti-sino nations like India) they started their work on J-XX in 1987. They did not have any stealth technology than but by 1990 they did. This was reported by CIA.
According to CIA that China has either got this technology from Russia or from Israel. According to CIA Israel did have knowledge about USA's stealth technology & they MOSAD also tried to steal one from Russia. Either way CIA believes that China does have studies for stealth & has potential to make stealthy ACs.

But I dnt believe that J-XX's stealth is going to be any where near that of B-2 & F-22. Its going to be semi stealth like JSF-35 & RAFALE (Also PAK-FA is going to be semi stealth).

Interesting new aerospace thread on ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

IT LOOKS THE PHOTOS SHOWED OUT OF MOST ONE'S EXPECTATION.
BUT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT IS GENUINE?

[edit on 20-3-2005 by emile]

The 1st pic is of J-10's cockpit, seen it over hundred times now.

2nd is not J-XX cause J-XX is twin engine & it has two tail wing flaps.

2nd could be the 4th Gen Chinese light weight AC made in competition to Su-30MKI. It is a single engine AC & so is the above pic.

I see Chinese r not interested in manuverbility, they have removed the canards from both the ACs.

First point is understood. However, I base everything off of what is tangible. It probably has a low RCS in the same manner as the Typhoon, or maybe aproaching the F-117.

Originally posted by waynos
SABRE, If I was a betting man I would say that the Switchblade project has been canned because of whatever reasons ( problems when the airflow over the wing is asked to change direction completely during transition from FSW to delta configuration perhaps?) and the lack of any further progress on the design is the reason we see the identical F/A-37 Talon prop in the movie 'Stealth'.

I have no hard facts to back this up of course, it is just a theory of mine.

I agree completely. I highly doubt this aircraft is still in the works. Variable wing geometry is extremely expensive to maintain, operate, and design. I am sure the US could make an aircraft that aproached it's specs much more cheaply without having to work out the kinks of in flight wing reconfiguration.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Artists impression

Not a very stealthy looking airplane - too many radar reflecting angles. Plus, it just looks like an American F-15 (rear) and F-18 (front) morphed together. How is something like this supposed to be in the same league as an F-22 or F-35? Not.

that's no the only XXJ concept floating around.

this one looks a lot like the F-22, and looks very stealthy.

That last pic, the 3D render - I was going to say why are there US markings, until I realised they're Chinese. Go me.

It looks like an F/B-22 with tail fins and canards. The canards and engines don't look particulary stealthy. It doesn't have a saw-tooth engine, so that might cut back on it's stealth capabilities.

That guy made a good render. Even if it is a "copy", or even a "Frankenstein", it sure looks good.

Hey isn't that(the last pic) almost alike to the Boeing JSF design that got beaten by Lockheed Martin F-35?
Can the ideas of the chinese be more original??

Get your own plane

[edit on 10-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]

The last pic looks a bit weird though.. the front-end look is an exact F-22..
While the top view is obv very diff from an F-22.
I fone compares the canards in the front and side view ther are suttle differences/contradictions..
Anyways isn't China's stealth aircraft due in a year or two??
waiting waiting..

[edit on 10-4-2005 by Daedalus3]