You don't mutilate your daughters - why do you mutilate your sons ? (Discussion concerning human se

reply to post by 27jdOk, back to your earlier posts then:
I take it that you are aware that, if a person or group has a social agenda which they want scientific backup for, all they need do is fund the research with a promise of more to come? I know you've read this thread, so you also know that there are plenty of peer-reviewed papers which disagree with those you've cited.
On to specifics:
STDs
2 things;
1) In 29yrs of highly promiscuous sex I've caught crabs once; about 8yrs ago I caught herpes simplex (from an American woman as it happens - bitch!), but fortunately it seems to be confined to my top lip &, despite being a bit of a waster, after the initial cold-sore faded, its only reoccurred once. Its only infectious when there's a sore... Phew!
About 4yrs ago a friend told me that a bloke she had been doing had been diagnosed with chlamydia so my ex-wife & I should get tested. We didn't bother - got the antibiotics just to be sure.
If it was anywhere near as easy to catch STDs as the media would have us believe, my ex & I would likely have already died of a full compliment of the various infections we can get through sex.
2) Short of abstinence [yeah right!], the best prevention is condoms. You think having the snip will save you from AIDS? Dont be daft! A cut man has to thrust harder just to get off, which increases the potential for chafing & blood to blood contact. Remember, the HIV virus only remains functional outside normal body conditions for 12sec & male genitals are typically 2 degrees below body temperature.

I'm not suggesting that people should go out & play bareback with anyone that'll have them, but if you get yourself tested, you can be honest about your status & speak authorititively about how to go about getting it done. Then, once you both know the score, you can decide what degree of protection is necessary. Just understand that 'stigma' is a purely social construct.
(Cont. Below)

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Should I be worried for my child that did not get circumsized? You think St. Peter is checking Penises at the Pearly Gates?

You'll realise the error of your ways when you arrive at those pearly gates one day and see St Peter for yourself ...
- bending over and grasping his ankles.

Originally posted by rle4lunch
At first I thought that this topic would be an interesting read, but it quickly snowballed into stupidity.

Ahem to that!

I can't believe the effort that the OP has gone through to push her point in dozens of responses. That must be a near record. As she has revealed, there is more to her point than what the thread titled about. I hope she is satisfied with the balance of the response, but I doubt it since they did not support her thesis but actually showed it to be faulty.

Originally posted by Binder
reply to post by AdAbsurdum

 

So according to an unbiased source circumcision fits the strict definition of mutilation.

I know, that's why I used the word. I am not concerned that you don't like it. It is what it is.

To say I must either say I am completely for or against something that is an individual choice that is either made by a person or his caregiver by proxy is absurd. For me to do so would violate the code of ethics I am sworn to uphold.

So you aren't for or against FGM, either. Nice code of ethics you got there. See, I think it's wrong to mutilate a person's body with out there consent (exceptions are listed on the first page) because I believe in the freedom to consent.

If you want to view this as hypocrisy, you need a very closed mind. If they wait, and the child decides against it, simply teach the child a very simple step in personal hygiene. If the parents opted to have it done, what right do you have calling them derogatory names because you personally disagree with their choice?

The 1st Amendment. I hold it to be self evident and true.

You have no right to impose your view on anyone.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I don't have a gun to anyone's head.

By pigeon holing everyone who doesn't agree with you into a negative slot in your mental bureau alienates them from even considering your side. If the ability to differentiate between emotional, cultural, or religious bias, and intelligent, informed dissent and/or consent is hypocrisy I guess I plead guilty.

I don't care if it alienates people who by their logic are FGM apologists. I also don't care if anyone on the internet is alienated or not. You have an issue with how I do business, that's fine. It doesn't address my argument.

No one knows all the answers to anything at any given time. We all know in part, and see in part, and that is all anyone has to go on in any given situation. Part of personal growth, and development is learning to value others opinions even when they differ from your own, and that something that challenges your way of thinking is not something to be feared, but explored, and assimilated.

Lets explore the way of thinking that led to the Nanjing Massacre and assimilate it? I don't think so.

Most of the time I have to agree with the analogy I read in a signature. "Arguing with someone on the internet is like participating in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded." Doing so still remains a guilt pleasure though, and sometimes I am rewarded with very stimulating, and intelligent debate, this isn't one of those debates.

Cry me a river. I'm not here to entertain you. I've posted my argument and the only thing you can counter with is I don't like the words you use.

Star and flag for you OP. I applaud your thread, it's VERY rare to see these opinions expressed by an American woman (which I presume you are).

There seems little point in adding anything further, those who find excuses for circumcision will continue to do so because of their cultural bias, I am just thankful I live in a country where being uncut is the norm. A penis is a beautiful thing - ugly scar tissue and desensitised glands are not.

reply to post by VelvetSplash

A penis is a beautiful thing - ugly scar tissue and desensitised glands are not.

Hey!! I'm pretty fond of mine, he has a little fireman's helmet and everything! Nothing ugly about it.

My wife seems to like it too. And there is nothing desensitized about it. I can't imagine more sensitivity! That might be too much for me, LOL!

Heres a question...

Would you trade a little sensation for a longer experience with the same climactic ending?

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
This then is my frame of reference: I know as much about how various penises work as the average prostitute.

Well, I can't put anything up against that. All I know, as others have said, is I enjoy sex fine. This topic seems to put people on the defensive, myself included. We'll just have to agree to disagree, we each have to live with the choices that were made, for us and by us. I do appreciate the civil discussion though, and with that I will bow out of the thread since for the most part it's just an emotional battle of personal opinions, each backed by studies, etc. Not sure there's much progress to be made either way.

reply to post by 27jd(cont from above)
Penile Problems
Certainly some boys do experience problems. However, those that stem from infection are not his fault, they are ours; as parents we ought to supervise our kids' hygiene. If you are not prepared for the nastier side of child-rearing, like bum-wiping & genital cleaning, then you shouldn't have kids at all. After 3yrs of cleaning your boychild's crotch, how difficult is it to supervise his own efforts?

Yes, there are problems which can occur as a result of unusual growth patterns. Yes, having the snip at a later age will definitely be remembered. Still, you pays your money: you takes your chances, right?
I had ingrowing toe-nails as a kid, which required minor surgery. Minor? It hurt like f# afterwards! Both my daughter & son had the same problem about age 8. Yeah, they were severely discombobulated by the surgery. Still, until the condition developed, we had no idea if it would, so cutting into their toe-nails as babies would have been stupid (not that any doctor would offer to do it). Why should we cut an especially sensitive part of the body then, on the off-chance that it may need doing later? If there's no other option because of a problem later, well thats unfortunate, but hey, its not spinabifida or any of the other serious diseases our kids can suffer from.
I personally had to have a major op on my arm & hand @7yrs old, to repair damage done as a baby. Believe me, it was traumatic. However I have grown up with a working hand. Its not perfect, but its all I've known, so it does me fine. At the time of the injury, my mum was faced with the choice of having my middle finger completely amputated or stitched back together, even tho @the time there was no readily available solution to the immobility I would be left with. Thank all that rocks that she chose right for me!!! A few years later, a surgeon pioneered a procedure that could fix me: woohoo!

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
From what I've heard,...... hundreds of boys have been deprived of real sex.

I'm not going to give details of my sexual experiences, but you haven't described anything new.
I understand, you've just started having regular sex and wants the world to know.

*Leaves thread*

reply to post by ofhumandescent


I have two young sons, uncircumcised. I did some internet research after coming home from the hospital with my first son. My mother laughed at me when I said that it just seems so tiny, how could you think of cutting anything off?!!!

I no longer have the link, but the most interesting thing I remember from my internet research is that historically, Jewish circumcision removed much, much less than modern circumcision. Traditional Jewish circumcision removed only the tip of the foreskin and not the whole thing. "Extreme circumcision" became part of American WASP culture by being promoted heavily during the Victorian era as a way to reduce masturbation in adolescent boys. I do not know why it was not abandoned when that little experiment obviously failed!

I have to disagree about the procedure being painful.
Yes with my 1st son it was, but that was because we choose poorly when it came to dr.s. With my 2nd child I was much more informed. The dr. was amazing. Instead of strapping my son down he was swaddled leaving only that area exposed and numbed. My son didn't make a peep and was completely unaware of what was happening.He was medicated for pain afterwords.

reply to post by 27jdWell I read your bow-out, but no, I wont simply agree to disagree. What has already been said is now in the public domain. In short, I've farted so I'll stinish. Please feel free to bow or strut back in @any time.
Hygiene
You mentioned being amused by my "euro slang" - here's some more for you:
Toe Jam (speaks for itself)
Cleg-nuts/Clinckers/Klingons (lumps of kak stuck to anal hair)
Bogies (Boogers)
Lug-spuds (Potatoes in your ears, ie they're so dirty there's a garden in there)
Scuzz (any bodily detritus, often mixed with lint & found between the toes or in the belly button).
Now I'm not saying it was instant, because it took several demonstrations, conversations & enforcements, but both my kids managed to grasp the idea that these things are just not acceptable, unless one has absolutely no way of dealing with them, by the age of 5. If you've got soap, water & time, there's no good reason not to wash @least the worst bits.
I left the intricacies of feminine hygiene to my wife to explain to my daughter. We're vegetarian & so the fact that I cant ever remember smelling fish around the place tells me that, however those conversations went, the lesson was learned.
I made sure my son knew how to wash his bell-end as it changed over the years, principally by plonking him in the shower with me. He's not one for the great outdoors or any kind of rough living (the wuss!), so I'd bet my left bollock that he's never had any knob-cheese in his entire 19yrs of life!
I'm sure we had a slang term for a minging gob when I was a kid also, but whatever it was, I've forgotten. Surprisingly, my kids also brush their teeth... Who'd a thunk it?
Now, given that a well washed penis is far cleaner than our mouths or anuses, where do you imagine that any foreign-to-my-lad bacteria comes from?

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum

Originally posted by Binder
reply to post by AdAbsurdum

 

To say I must either say I am completely for or against something that is an individual choice that is either made by a person or his caregiver by proxy is absurd. For me to do so would violate the code of ethics I am sworn to uphold.

So you aren't for or against FGM, either. Nice code of ethics you got there. See, I think it's wrong to mutilate a person's body with out there consent (exceptions are listed on the first page) because I believe in the freedom to consent

.

It's the same code of ethics millions of health care workers abide by. To again posit that I am neutral on FGM proves you either aren't paying attention, or having a convenient lapse in memory. It's called adopting a cogent superposition where you can view both frames of reference of an issue. A very useful tool too, but requires a high degree of awareness, personal development, and intelligence to wield. The lay term is critical thinking.

No one knows all the answers to anything at any given time. We all know in part, and see in part, and that is all anyone has to go on in any given situation. Part of personal growth, and development is learning to value others opinions even when they differ from your own, and that something that challenges your way of thinking is not something to be feared, but explored, and assimilated.

Lets explore the way of thinking that led to the Nanjing Massacre and assimilate it? I don't think so.




If you never explore, and assimilate history, even the ugly events, you are doomed to repeat them. Which is obvious in your line of thinking which is exactly how despots justify the attrocities they commit to themselves and cohorts. Tag the opposition with a term that threatens to make them social pariah. Make generalizations about them that only make sense to "dull logic." Deflect, and redirect higher logic with emotional ploys, intentional editing, and twisting of the oppositions counter-points designed to pull attention away from any line of reasoning that might threaten your position. Win the argument at all cost, no matter how many intellectually dishonest tactics it takes. This is what I have a problem with. The circumcision debate can be held without villafying anyone. You simply choose not to do it because vilification is easier, and requires less brain power. Very lazy debate strategy.

GoT: 53. His students said to him, “Is circumcision of benefit to us or not?” He said to them, “If it were of benefit, their father would have them born from their mother already circumcised. Rather, it is the true circumcision in spirit that is worth something.”

It seems logical that we would have born without the foreskin if it wasn't needed.

reply to post by 27jd
Finally & briefly:
Sensitivity
I've pretty much covered (oh lol) this in replies to other posts, but just to put the cards on the table: less nerve endings = less feeling; commiserations & all that, but thats just the way it is. Sex feels fine cut does it? Fine isn't good enough for me & so it certainly wouldn't be something I'd force on a child unless there was an overwhelming medical reason to do so &, even then, not before exhausting all other options.
I didn't spend £800 on a pair of pro monitors for my living room because "fine" was good enough from my sound system. These days, I'm a bit skint, so I cant usually afford Sancere; I make do with a decent Sauvignon Blanc, because 'House White' just isn't good enough.
I dont care if I have to save up when my bedding needs replacing. I like sleeping on Egyptian cotton; poly/cotton mix just doesn't cut it.
Why on earth would I compromise with sex then?

Originally posted by ADUB77
Heres a question...
Would you trade a little sensation for a longer experience with the same climactic ending?

You think a guy can't learn to control that?

With practice, a man can have his cape and beat it all night long.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
Penile Problems
Certainly some boys do experience problems. However, those that stem from infection are not his fault, they are ours; as parents we ought to supervise our kids' hygiene. If you are not prepared for the nastier side of child-rearing, like bum-wiping & genital cleaning, then you shouldn't have kids at all. After 3yrs of cleaning your boychild's crotch, how difficult is it to supervise his own efforts?

Re hygiene -
I was lectured by doctors and the nurses we were supposed to visit after birth about the need to pull the baby's foreskin bak and wash under it with soap each day. (~30 years ago)
My friends did this with their little boys, but I was so painfully shy I couldn't even touch my little boys there, so I'd just give them a soak in a warm bath each day. Yes, I know how stupid that shyness is, but that's how I was.

The upshot was that my friends had all sorts of problems with their little boys' willies but my kids were fine.
Now doctors know the baby's foreskin should never be pulled back, and it will almost always detach itself in it's own good time. It's only once a man needs it to move freely that it's a problem if it still doesn't.

So these good mothers were damaging their poor kids, and then believed the doctors the resulting problems were their fault for choosing not to circumcise, whereas me, being less "good", did no harm.

People shouldn't overdo the cleanliness stuff. Lots of water is good, but if you have a healthy diet with lots of veges and vitamin C you don't need a heap of soap and chemicals to stay smell-free. Just a good play in a warm bath is usually enough for any kid.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
You have absolutely no frame of reference to make that assertion.

And what frame of reference do you have to make the assertion that you enjoy sex more than if you had been circumcised? Besides of course the super interesting story about your lady that gives such a great beejer, she nearly kills you?

I've already answered the "frame of reference" part, but, for the sake of completeness (oh how I love completeness ), I must correct your misapprehension here:
The incident in question was a one off. Not that she's at all lazy, just that, afterwards, I could handle more, if you see what I mean? Naturally, I had to learn to "up my game" in order to reciprocate, which certainly wasn't any kind of unwelcome imposition, but, which I suspect may have been impossible, had it not been for the fact that I can feel exactly whats going on down there.
Also, it didn't "nearly kill" me; I just fainted. For the experiences that did nearly kill me, because of the T&Cs, you'll have to use your imagination. Then think "a little bit more than that" (it seems I am Captain Scarlett, ie indestructable).
Whether she can still be bothered to go to those lengths, I couldn't say. We've been divorced 5yrs so pretty much the only times we play together now is when either of us discoveres a new person (read 'toy') that we know the other would really appreciate (we are still friends after all).

reply to post by Bunken Drum


I know I said I was bowing out of the thread, but I figured I should close with this important public service announcement:

Friends, don't let friends post drunk.