Retired General Slams NY 'Mosque' Critics

Ok so maybe someone should point out that it's not a mosque. Also there has been and still is a real mosque closer to ground zero than this is.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Ok so maybe someone should point out that it's not a mosque. Also there has been and still is a real mosque closer to ground zero than this is.

Theres no point in pointing this out. No matter what anyone says the people against this will still believe it to be a Mosque, rather than a community centre with two floors for worship. Your second point just seems to enrage these people further.

Actually it's odd how the people against this building are acting very like..............................extremists.

Yes extremist can come up in all colors and shapes. Just in this thread there was one guy who said he wouldn't mind if it were to 'go boom' or something. I'm truly hoping such people are just trolling because if not then it's truly sad.
Also about the mosque that is there. I'm going by Keith's word has been in that place before the twin towers even existed. So this whole point is moot. Like people just need some excuse to vent or something and they take even the most silliest of things they can find to do it.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You know Proto I am not a Muslim or a Christian so I am in middle road. I think it would not hurt anyone to make a building where you can come and meet other people and enjoy sports. I certainly do not oppose building such a facility.

Even though I agree with the General's statements and applaud him for even trying on this contentious issue I have to look at it practically and will have to face that the general's words of winning heart & minds would not work anyway, why? Because of the devastation that was caused by illegal Iraq war and now leaving Iraq in ruins, massive bombings of Afghanistan, Abhu Gharib scandal, trials without representation or heck no trials at all because there is hardly any evidence to implicate prisoners and other such issues.

Ever since these wars were started the division among West and East have deepened and trust me my friend these issues will not go away for coming many years.

It's their own folly to push for this. Regardless, at least half the people out there will assume it to be a "trophy" mosque, and rightfully so.

It's about respect.

Let them build it.

But it's inherent that it will further erode public opinion and relations.

How can't they know this?

How isn't that the point?

I almost have to question the people behind it as a deliberate tool to further fuel the "war" and it's supporters, and diversion overall.

It's about the most stupid thing "Muslim's" could do, if not only for the reason of having to deal with perpetual vandalism that is sure to come with it.

The decision shouldn't have been the city council's, it should have been that of the victims families and the firefighters who were on duty that year.

Let them build it, but there will be inherent repercussions that they're obviously embracing for the sake of a victory dance. This all applies regardless of your view of 'what happened' on 9/11.


QUESTION: Does one single supporter of that mosque believe for a moment it wont be a celebratory device in the name of the WTC and 9/11?

[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Theres no point in pointing this out. No matter what anyone says the people against this will still believe it to be a Mosque, rather than a community centre with two floors for worship. Your second point just seems to enrage these people further.

How is that any different than a Jewish Community Center (that has "temples" built into it)? Oh, I guess you basically have to be Jewish to get thru the high security entrance.

Back in Michigan they have "Chaldean" Catholic churches. I suppose any non-Chaldean person could walk int there, but the ethnicity being part of the name of the church should make it well aware enough for anyone to know whether or not they had much business there. You wanna see racists? Wait until a random crowd of Chaldeans all happen to show up at the same bar and begin to gang up and racially profile people who are in tiny groups. But it's only considered a hate crime if white people ganged up on them, which never happens, while most young chaldeans couldn't care less about beiung "Catholic".

But that's only one area, where they're called "Chaldeans". All over the metro-Detroit area arabs gang up and do the same sort of thing regardless of ethnicity.

I've worked for many arabs, up there, before 9/11. There are some real sweet-hearts, but the majority of them are the most racist people you've ever met. If only you could hear what they call "black" people.

Oh, but everyone is racist. Still, even rednecks alofting the biggest confederate flag just outside of Tampa hardly compares to this.

Let them build it. Oh, ok on this page of the thread I'm seeing talk of there already being a mosque closer to it. I dont' know that as being an actual fact, but if there already is one there why do they need another one? 2 floors of a mega-complex being for 'mosque' activities doesn't sound like it being much different than a mosque to me. Plenty of different churches have 'civic' facilities but that doesn't change the fact of them still being specific sorts of churches.

I've always criticized the existence of things like Jewish Community Centers, and "Chaldean" Catholic churches, as institutions that wear their intended ethnicity's on their sleeve. Oh, but I should embrace an ethnic oriented "Muslim" community center that wants to build in the 'ashes' of the most symbolic U.S. landmark in the Muslim catalog?

I won;t challenge their right to do it, but I WILL challenge those who condone t as being ethical. Just because you have a "right", doesn't make it RIGHT.

And the last thing we need is more fuel on the fire of promoting the religious warfare already well under way.

Go ahead and support the concept of them having the right to build it, but to argue furiously for their push to do so is an agnostic abomination.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Go ahead and support the concept of them having the right to build it, but to argue furiously for their push to do so is an agnostic abomination.

Erm all i have done is support their right to build it so your outrage is badly targetted.

As for a Mosque being close already, well different Mosques often have different communities so that is why a second one may be needed. The major point however is that if you stop them building it because of their religious ideals (and that is what is going on here) then you basically state that not all religions are equal and so not all people are equal.

Also as already stated and mentioned by the retired General, if you stop them you simple fuel the fire of the extremists.

reply to post by name pending


I dont support the military industrial complex, perpetual war, the War on Terror, the official 9/11 conspiracy theory, or any of that.

But at the same time this stuff is symbolic. Agree they should have a right to do it, sure. But to take a side and say they SHOULD build there is giving a big middle finger to those who suffered, who lost family, or are dying right now from the response. Plain and simple.

Is there not enough space in all of NYC for them to build that the only worthy opening is in that particular tract of real estate?

Political correctness will be the undoing of any melting pot, or otherwise even perhaps.

And do you really think a Muslim Community Center will be open to any and all? Is any ethnically oriented community center inherently open to all? If unity were the intention of it in any regard they'd have an entirely different project in mind: one that even the staunchest war mongers would have a hard time spinning as being provocational.

I haven't even been paying much attention to this issue, but I still know it's wrong, even though the have the right.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Well saying there's no point in reasoning with the detractors would seem to take a side.

From there, rationalizing their selection of location would be another sign of what I'm talking about. There most be SOOOO many Muslims living adjacent to the WTC ruins that there isn't enough mosques for them to have separate communities. Wait, what's the point of ethnically based community centers again?

I never said any religion or ethnicity is above any other. I criticize them all for having their monolithic "community" centers that symbolically push out outsiders. Sure they have the right, but to do it even the most disparate location is conceded at best.

I didn't say stop them. I said don't support their push to do it.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

Well saying there's no point in reasoning with the detractors would seem to take a side.

No i said that theres no point telling people this isn't a Mosque when they are against the building because they will never change their minds that it isn't a Mosque. That's not taking a side. I never said there is no point in reasoning about the entire issue, just that very specific thing. If i didn't think reason could prevail i wouldn't be posting anything.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
I never said any religion or ethnicity is above any other. I criticize them all for having their monolithic "community" centers that symbolically push out outsiders. Sure they have the right, but to do it even the most disparate location is conceded at best.

I didn't say stop them. I said don't support their push to do it.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Ok hang on a moment, if your argument is against all ethnically based community centres then i support you. All such things do is aid separation of the community whether it's Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or anything else. However your objection isn't this simple, you have stated you don't like a Muslim centre being so close to the WTC area. That's a specific anti-Muslim statement and so you are saying that not all groups are equal when you approach it from that angle.

But yes i absolutely agree with you regarding ethnic centres of any kind.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


To me, it stinks on all levels. It's like building a gigantic blanket statue next to an "Indian" reservation (after they were annihilated in part due to small pox infected blankets), with an "American" community recreation center underneath it.


But a star for you in any case for being quite reasonable in important ways.


[edit on 21-8-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

This is the same thing myelf and many others have been saying. By banning the Mosque you really help th recruiting efforts of extremists and even peaceful Muslims may find it offensive and feel persecuted.

I will never understand why ground zero is considered hallowed ground (even though it's 2 blocks away from ground zero).

I can explain that for you!

Well actually I am going to let a former President of the United States explain that for you:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

If you would like to glorify death and violence and brother against brother struggle, for the expressed purpose of rallying people around a dividing point that will turn brother against brother, you hallow a piece of ground and while you sit there teary eyed lamenting violence, and death and brother against brother struggle, you actually promote that very same thing at that very same time.

You use it as that casus belli for turning brother against brother, more death, more destruction, by manipulating people’s sense of loss and offense against them. You do that by making it so much bigger than them as an individual and then making them a part of it too by extension so they feel engaged in and form an identity with something so much bigger than themselves.

Ground Zero is hallowed ground because it is being used by the elite as the casus belli for perpetual brother against brother war.

As always the corporate nation who will control you and profit off of you in this undertaking wants your last full measure of devotion.

Why? Because it’s not them that is going to be doing the fighting or dying, and it’s not them who is going to pay for it, and it’s not them that is going to have their quality of life suffer through conflict, division, death and destruction.

It’s all a political manipulation.

Hallowed ground is perhaps one of the most significant motivators for manipulating people to war, with religion being the first.

How do we get away from this, lets ask some people who create things out of nothing instead of destroying things for vengeance, retribution and to be part of something so much bigger than them, even if it’s a really bad thing that they are a part of:




[edit on 21/8/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I can explain that for you!

Well actually I am going to let a former President of the United States explain that for you:

I'm confused, while i understand that all ground in the USA may be considered important as it is the land your forefathers set in place and protected under a banner of freedom and protection from the state, i don't understand why that specific spot is considered so vitally important by some just because a lot of people died in a terrorist attack.

Actually by keeping the spot as special the terrorists sort of win because by remembering it and keeping it in the minds of younger generations it just serves as a monument to hatred, either the terrorists hating the USA or some US citizens hating the Muslims.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Shark VA84
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

proto, I have enjoyed many of your posts on this particular website, and I thank you as well for the kind words. The point in fact is that no matter our stance, no matter our understanding of a certain issue, most everyone around here can come to the conclusion that a peaceful and sustainable future is in the best interest of everyone. The open dialogue and freedom of speech provided on forums and websites such as ATS (still the best imo) allow us all to come out of the wood-work and help each other progress as intelligent, intellectual and informed human beings.

You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the Army and its special operations command, glad to see it honestly. I wish you well into the future, and look forward to our future discussions together. If there are any punctuation errors in this post I apologize, I will correct them in a more sober state in the morning.

Thanks my friend, and though it might sound egotistical a lot of fellow members have.

Not so much my posts on this subject as I put my popularity and respect with some on the line to try to be a voice a reason and to attempt to get people to slow down, take a deep breath and rethink their often emotional and often irretraceable positions.

Hard and fast positions set in stone that many will not only tolerate no debate on but have arrived at through false or complete information.

Having said that I would like to give a really big shout out and thanks to my own ATS hero SchrödingersDog whose intellect, command of the vernacular and voice of reason I am always in awe of for wading into this very emotional hot button issue too as a voice of reason.

You too my friend, because as my dearly departed maternal grandmother would say the easiest way to loose friends is to talk about religion, politics or sell them a used car.

This for many people is a religious and political issue so it’s doubly fraught and doubly volatile.

It sure has its share of lemons too as one poster after another poster recycles the same old often false information and links from one thread after another thread, after another thread that has the words mosque or Muslim in it regardless of the actual focal point of the discussion.

So many people seem to want to justify their hostility and often blanket prejudice and xenophobia on the other guy, the other side, without any reflection of their own motivations and credos and ethics and that in large part is why this is bound to remain a divisive and emotionally topic for a long time.

One that almost prevents any intelligent discussion on the real underlying issues and conspiracies that ATS is famous for.

Those who are trying not to just be part of someone’s cheerleading section but trying to discuss this issue on those deeper levels and in doing that being a voice of contemplative reason I do salute you, for those of you who aren’t a true man of peace now would like to share something with you!

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I can explain that for you!

Well actually I am going to let a former President of the United States explain that for you:

I'm confused, while i understand that all ground in the USA may be considered important as it is the land your forefathers set in place and protected under a banner of freedom and protection of the state, i don't understand why that specific spot is considered so vitally important by some just because a lot of people died in a terrorist attack.

Actually by keeping the spot as special the terrorists sort of win because by remembering it and keeping it in the minds of younger generations it just serves as a monument to hatred, either the terrorists hating the USA or some US citizens hating the Muslims.

Sorry the editorial part of my post didn't seem to make it into the post above when I first posted it, but it's there now, but you have in fact figured out why it's hallowed ground, and why making it hallowed ground is so important in manipulating people towards hate and war.

Take a look at what I added above, and I think it will make more sense to you still.

Great observations you are sharing. Thanks my friend.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by name pending

 

But at the same time this stuff is symbolic. Agree they should have a right to do it, sure. But to take a side and say they SHOULD build there is giving a big middle finger to those who suffered, who lost family, or are dying right now from the response. Plain and simple.

I find your point disingenuous. It would be right time to remind that there were also Muslim victims among the 9/11 victims, how about their feelings? Why is it considered giving a middle finger is beyond me when people of all religions, no religions were among victims. Are the people concerned about this center points that the entire Muslim faith is behind these attacks? If so they are being intolerant and treat only their religion as superior.

And do you really think a Muslim Community Center will be open to any and all? Is any ethnically oriented community center inherently open to all?

Yes I do believe

The project's organizers have said that the center, called Park51, is modeled on Manhattan's 92nd Street Y, a community center open to all New Yorkers. Park51 is also intended to be open to the entire community, though there will be some restrictions based on Muslim traditions.

It would house meeting rooms, a fitness center, a swimming pool, a basketball court, a restaurant and culinary school, a library, a 500-seat auditorium, a Sept. 11 memorial, a reflection space, and a mosque that could attract as many as 2,000 worshipers on Fridays. There is no place like it in the city, which is home to 600,000 to 700,000 Muslims, according to Columbia University researchers.

There are an estimated 2.5 million Muslims in the United States, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

- www.washingtonpost.com...

I guess it will all be ok as long as the US can put an armoured version of the WTC up on the site of Mecca ?

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

The World Trade Centre was not Muslim.

Do not replace it with something Muslim.

I am getting sick and tired of people saying Muslims may be offended.

SO WHAT?

People who defend the "mosque" for the sake of not offending are not seeing it clearly and are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not offending someone is not my concern. My concern is the First Amendment, and the Declaration of Independance.

It is all about the foundational principles of America. We are at a crossroads. We can choose to continue on the path we are on, and lose that which differentiates our nation and our culture from others. Or we can choose to ignore our foundational principles and instead choose to stifle free speech, freedom of religion, and to hold that all men are NOT created equal.

That is a disgusting travesty. I am saddened and sickened by what I see my nation becoming. All of it justified using the flimsy argument of moral equivalency.

200 years later and I can say we are definitely less insightful as a nation.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

The World Trade Centre was not Muslim.

Do not replace it with something Muslim.

I am getting sick and tired of people saying Muslims may be offended.

SO WHAT?

People who defend the "mosque" for the sake of not offending are not seeing it clearly and are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not offending someone is not my concern. My concern is the First Amendment, and the Declaration of Independance.

It is all about the foundational principles of America. We are at a crossroads. We can choose to continue on the path we are on, and lose that which differentiates our nation and our culture from others. Or we can choose to ignore our foundational principles and instead choose to stifle free speech, freedom of religion, and to hold that all men are NOT created equal.

That is a disgusting travesty. I am saddened and sickened by what I see my nation becoming. All of it justified using the flimsy argument of moral equivalency.

200 years later and I can say we are definitely less insightful as a nation.

I believe many of us realize what a slippery slope this is and for many of us, it’s about resisting that slow descent into fascism that is transforming the nation.

9-11 wasn’t tried by a Judicial Body the findings assessing blame were done by a legislative body, a political body, and a partisan controlled political body.

Like the Reichstag fire that led to the domination of Germany by Hitler, when politicians begin to usurp the independent judiciary to bypass those checks and balances that is only being done for the sake of politics, not justice and not truth.

Americans since have become increasingly more fearful, increasingly poorer, and increasingly angrier.

Here we stand on the verge of a entire religion being vilified, made to be a scapegoat, and persecuted as a result.

In other words we stand at the threshold of a Nazi like society and regime.

I am not religious and don’t agree with Zionist politics, but if you want to physically attack one of my Jewish neighbors walking to Temple because they dress different than you, look different than you, pray different than you, I am going to defend that person with my very life if need be.

I am not religious and while I don’t agree with Christian politics either, if you want to plant a pipe bomb at a Christian Church I would be the first person to throw myself on it.

I am not religious and while I don’t agree with Muslim politics if you want to burn down one of their mosques I would leap in those flames and do what ever I could to put out that fire.

Why because I am a human being and so are all.

None of us should have to live in fear, pain, under suspicion or be persecuted because we have been stereotyped.

All of us deserve to be judged on our individual actions, because we are all individuals.

Being critical of someone or something is one thing, limiting and jeopardizing every ones constitutional privileges
By persecuting others wholesale through stereotyping, and trying to strip those constitutional privileges from that group is not the way to go, unless you want to live in a fascist state.

I don’t want to live in a fascist state, and I don’t want to judge wholesale, a group of people lumped together for the expressed purpose of judging them, and judging them harshly, to advocate persecution and stripping them of their constitutional privileges.

In fact I will fight against that ever happening no matter what the cost, because not doing so only results in a world and a life not worth living to begin with.

We stand on the precipice of a very ugly turn that history displays always has the worst of consequences.

If it isn’t stopped here and now history shows it will run its ugly course to the utter ruin of the nation and the world and all living in it.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself, and far too many of us are giving into fear, then anger, then hatred, then prejudice and thinking entirely with emotions.

If we follow our constitutional principles in relation to this, and let history be our guide, we can’t go wrong.

Abandon those valuable tools and lessons, and there is absolutely no way it will work out right.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
QUESTION: Does one single supporter of that mosque believe for a moment it wont be a celebratory device in the name of the WTC and 9/11?

I'm sure there will be some people who will see it as a celebratory device as you say. And to that, I ask, what's the harm? Where's the harm in someone THINKING that they have scored a point in their silly "war" of religions?

Many Americans thought we scored a big positive point (or a celebratory device) when we attacked Afghanistan and then Iraq. "Mission Accomplished" ring any bells? Much celebration! Many Christians saw a victory (or celebratory device) when the cartoons of Mohammad were spread around in the name of free speech. A symbol of victory? Yes. Many in Britain considered it a victory when the Burka was outlawed. I could go on and on.

So, can you explain what the actual harm is in someone thinking they've won some sort of victory? Do you think we should disallow this building as a means of controlling people's thoughts of celebration?