Revelation; 144,000

The universe can be determinate one, but still be indeterminable.
This actually is related to problems of physics as well, as I understand it.

Originally posted by Greensage
It is obvious that no one knows who the sealed are... I suppose there have been declarations by way of religious groups claiming to be sealed, but wouldn't they have a more definitive nature of the seal itself to prove it?
Am I wrong in assuming that even those that will be sealed are oblivious to it until that moment comes?

I suggested that the "sealing" was the same thing as the "sealing with the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Ephesians. and I would argue that Christians may know that they have the Holy Spirit, if only on the principle that "no-one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit"- I Corinthians ch12 v3

Was there an inclusion of the beliefs of JW in that those 144,000 will all be men? and, that they will all be virgins? (according to Jehovah Witnesses) I don't think I caught that part being mentioned or included in this thread, did I miss that?

No, the Jehovah's Witnesses take a lot of details literally, that I'm more inclined to take symbolically.
They take 144,000 literally- I don't. In the section headed "Who?", I analysed the symbolic meaning of the number, and decided that it meant "the fullness of God's people occupying the fullnes of God's world".
Also there is a verse in a different chapter about the number being chaste, "not defiled with women". But I understand this to be a metaphor about spiritual fidelity, faithfulness to God. Just as the "Harlot" is a metaphor about spiritual unfaithfulness. And I see no reason why these "faithful" people should be literally confined to males.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by lucidclouds
One question. Who do you believe they rule as king over?

What about the non-human world? That would make it unnecessary to think in terms of another group of humans. It would also, come to think of it, be a restoration of the full gift of "dominion" given to Adam.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I am in agreement with Disraeli, for what it is worth.
I think God reveals how great God is on many different levels.
I think this might correspond to mental levels of consciousness men might have - perhaps like the levels of heaven or hell that we see in Far Eastern thought might be a literal interpretation about the nature of God, and reality.

The problem is always words.

The Bible comes down from us - the old testament - from Hebrew - no doubt a sacred Biblical language. God says that he is the alpha and the omega - where language begins and ends.

GOD SAID let there be....and GOD SAID...it was good. And GOD SAID...I will never again....

God speaks. We listen. Like God speaks, it happens, and Shiva dances (to the music of the great unknown God) and the world is created.

The Hebrew alphabet has 24 letters. (When they are divided in half, one can form a great table or grid.) These 'magic tables' pop up all over the place - also in the magickal writings of the Ancient Egyptians. I *THINK* that 144,000 may also have been the number of tiles covering the great pyramid?

Because of that, this number might have been widely known - and thus had reason to be known as a 'great number' - a number to stand for "A CRAPLOAD" or a "GAJILLION" in ancient times.

But I do think the problem will always be language. Just like Physicist often gets mad when he hears a non-scientist talk about physics with words and says "One needs math to be able to express these things! Quit calling it 'the GOD particle!'" Some people get mad if one looks to outside writings or religons to express the nature of God, because they believe the only acceptable language is that of the Bible.

I say humbly that - in my experience - there is no language good enough. There may be more meaning in the fall of the tower of Babel and what has happened to us in the past, than in all of Revelations and what might be in our future. JMO

I appreciate you guys letting me express my thoughts in this thread.

i personally think the term '144,000' is given too much emphasis...

yes, it is important in the mystical Kaballa sense, but not so much
in the phrophetic sense.
the more important point i glean from the '144,000' is that these persons
are sealed from different and diverse groups of people that are definitely
Not associated with the 'beast' kingdom in any degree.

these groups of 12,000 each from 12 different hereditary lines...
for example there might be small communities of Gypsies in their own
form of diaspora around the world that distance their activities from
the networks controlled by the 'beast' empire/kingdom ...
and the Christians in hiding from the 'beast' networks can find
refuge in these spread out Gypsy communities...

there may be Kurds that are outside the 'beast empire' domination where
sepratist Christians can also find refuge from the 'Mark-of-the-beast'

all together the prophecy tells us there will be 12 tribes or peoples
that offer the defiant populations that choose to defy the 'beast-empire'
hegemony, a sanctuary for a time -[i.e. 1,260 days]


in the next higher level of phrophetic mysticism, these 12,000 from 12 groups
will become the 'leaders' of the millennial kingdom.
~which i think is not literal but those 144,000 had set up the
type of governance & leadership during the Great Tribulation (1,260 days)
that will serve as the benchmark for rulership in the millennial kingdom,
interesting that the Gypsies are organized in King-&-Queen rulership custom~

((notice that i'm sliding in the concept that Gypsies are one of the lost 10 Tribes of Israel...))





[edit on 16-8-2010 by St Udio]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Thanks for the quick response! So I take it that you feel that all or most of Revelation is a metaphor? I am not being cheeky, really, do you have thoughts on when the metaphor expresses itself in a literal sense so that the actual Kingdom of Christ can return, or do you feel that Christ's return is also a metaphor?

Sorry, I think I had better go back and read this entire post again, I did grab up your link to the thread on the "silence", thank you for linking that. You may ignore me metaphorically if I am not making sense! LOL

Originally posted by pathwalker
unless you follow something encouraging true growth to god like the kolbrin bible instead of the one that was made by Rome ... i believe you have no chance to be one of those saved, thats why the number is so low, to many people follow this so called religion based on fear...

over come your biased views and really think for yourself... how can one claim to be godly when one supports poisons/greed/lust...

I should point out, in the first place, that the early church was not "Rome", so you can't blame "Rome" for whatever you dislike about the Bible. The power of the Roman church was actually a very late development, historically. The idea that it was controlling church life from the very beginnng is a complete delusion, whether it comes from the Catholic side or the anti-Catholic side.

You say that "few people will be saved" because they follow the tradtional Bible. But the "few people" number actually comes from the traditional Bible. If you don't like that Bible, you've got no reason to go by the number. A little internal self-contradiction there.

You don't actually know that I'm supporting evil, so you have no reason to assume a conflict.

Originally posted by Greensage

Thanks for the quick response! So I take it that you feel that all or most of Revelation is a metaphor? I am not being cheeky, really, do you have thoughts on when the metaphor expresses itself in a literal sense so that the actual Kingdom of Christ can return, or do you feel that Christ's return is also a metaphor?

I certainly do take large chunks of Revelation as metaphor- more so than many enthusiastic interpreters.
But my current assumption is that the Return of Christ is not.

Originally posted by St Udio
these groups of 12,000 each from 12 different hereditary lines...
for example there might be small communities of Gypsies in their own
form of diaspora around the world that distance their activities from
the networks controlled by the 'beast' empire/kingdom ...

all together the prophecy tells us there will be 12 tribes or peoples
that offer the defiant populations that choose to defy the 'beast-empire'
hegemony, a sanctuary for a time -[i.e. 1,260 days]

I like to think my line of approach, with less detail, has the virtue of comparative simplicity. Makes it easier to fulfil.

As for the "lost tribes of Israel", my personal, historical, opinion, is that they simply lost track of their independent culture and history and got absorbed into the populations of northern Iraq and Iran.
Don't the Gipsies have an Indo-European language? I've got a copy of Borrow's Romano Lavo-Lil which I must get around to reading properly.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

I think it all HAS to be a metaphor.

But that does not mean it cannot have a reductionist, simple meaning that is evident as well.

This problem - IMO - is only a problem for us that we wrestle with what it MEANS.

Buddha picked up a flower. It is known as the flower sermon. It was a silent sermon. What is meaning? (Observe a simple flower) You see a flower. You know what is, but......how profound is the being of a flower? How profound is the being of YOU?

Jesus had something to say on who will go to heaven, and who won't, and I'd put my money on that particular table before I would anyone else's - including John of Patmo's.

"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’ 24“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. 26And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its fall!”

I do not think it is enough for us to know Jesus. He has to know us. I think that is done by being warm hearted and striving to live a happy life, and to help others do the same.
(I also think that a happy life is ALWAYS a "GOOD" life.)



[edit on 16-8-2010 by hadriana]

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
I think the "144000" will be those whose souls have evolved enough to handle their duty.

There is nothing in the Bible about souls evolving.
The implication in Ephesians is that they would be found amongst those who "have heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, and have believed in Christ", before being sealed with "the promised Holy Spirit"- Ephesians ch1 vv13-14

I dont get this thread.

Yes its fine to have an opinion about a story, but here you are treating the words in the bible as though god himself has told you them. Yet they are just words written by people.

The oldest texts we have are copies of copies. And its well documented that the copies we have now are altered, so how the hell do you know even the earliest texts we have are not altered?

And you base your entire LIVES on this?

The bible and other religious texts are nothing more than parables which 1: tell us a story based on the heavens, and 2: explain human nature to us.

What can be attributed to "God" is attributed to forces beyond our control (from the perspective of the people, and at the time the texts were written). Technology? God-powers. Natural disasters? God's wrath. Get it?

The prophecy in the religious texts is SELF FULFILLING. It is meant to be a warning yet by believing it literally you are fulfilling it. There are crazy people out there with the power and resources necessary, trying to literally make John's trip real. It was just his own perspective on things, probably induced by something medicinal. And we dont even know how accurate it is!

So please, do yourself a favour and stop believing in something so literally that you cannot prove, and has been proven inaccurate time and time again!

Originally posted by Ausar
i disagree with your last premise as it is nonjoining with the body of your post;

you italicized will but if "they" are sealed it does not matter if "they" desire any other mark for any reason, "they" cannot take what is already given them.

I think your hasty reading may have caused you to misread that comment.
I did not italicise "will".
I italicised "will not".
As such, my last comment was the logical conclusion of the rest of the post.
Your eye seems to have passed over that word "not" and failed to spot it.

As far as I can tell, your own comment means exactly what I was trying to say myself- that the believers would NOT receive the Mark, because they had already received the seal.

Originally posted by EnactedEgoTrip
but here you are treating the words in the bible as though god himself has told you them. Yet they are just words written by people.

No contradiction. That's how God gets things written. By gettting people to write them.

The bible and other religious texts are nothing more than parables which 1: tell us a story based on the heavens, and 2: explain human nature to us.

The Bible narrates the history of a relationship between the Creator God and humanity, brought into existence by deliberate communication on the part of the Creator God. If the relationship is there, it cannot be ignored. People are basing their lives on the sense of having a relationship with the same God.

So please, do yourself a favour and stop believing in something so literally that you cannot prove, and has been proven inaccurate time and time again!

Why do you care? I was an atheist myself once, when I was young (we all go through that stage), but I don't remember being bothered about what other people were believing.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by EnactedEgoTrip



your last remark:

The prophecy in the religious texts is SELF FULFILLING. It is meant to be a warning yet by believing it literally you are fulfilling it. There are crazy people out there with the power and resources necessary, trying to literally make John's trip real. It was just his own perspective on things, probably induced by something medicinal.

And we dont even know how accurate it is!

that is exactly why i am exploring the prophecy... trying to divine or decode just what is being said in the prediction.

yes indeed the essence of Revelation is the 'Armageddon meme'
the world of men is a destroyed battleground between the forces of dark and light
with the winner being victorious for a millenium only

the plot outline is before us, we only need to construct the screenplay & dialogue balloons to produce a plausable comic book classic, that anyone can pick up & understand (and to discern that we are being orchestrated/manipulated on many levels)

reply to post by EnactedEgoTrip


I think your right that John's story is being fulfilled before our eyes. We also may be duped into a "false" reasoning when the ending comes to fruition, because anyone who will go to this much work will take it to the end.

It is interesting to note the true ending is Heaven on Earth! So, with that in mind, whomever wants to manipulate us maybe be finding that its outcome is not what they hoped for because our collective consciousness will bring about the true "Heaven on Earth".

Having the Golden Rule will not prevent someone from harming us, but believing in the Golden Rule and surrounding ourselves with others that do we find that no one can harm us. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

All of this is a Blessing!

Your comprehension and compiled knowledge of Rev. and the Holy scriptures is truly impressive. To say the least. This thread is an eye opener for me. Thank you Disreali.

Originally posted by harryhaller
This 144 000 has intrigued me for a while. The numeralogical 12*12 is very evident, but it doesn't seem a "real" number? I mean, are ONLY 144000 going to reject the AC? I don't think so, there's going to be a LOT more than that executed

No, I don't regard it as a "real" number, in the sense that I don't take it in the literal sense. I thought I was putting that across by treating it as a symbolic number, but pehaps I should have spelled out the point more explicitly, because quite a few people on this thread seem to have missed it.
Also I now regret leaving out one of the lines in my draft- "I see no reason to drag the Jews into our understanding of this passage". Too late now, the edit button has gone.

Excellent post Disraeli! I feel you are on the right path and my senses are only confirmed by the way you deal with those that would discredit you. That is the light and the love of Christ. This is the first post of yours I have stumbled upon and I look forward to reading the rest with great interest.
It is refreshing to see someone like yourself who looks at the bible and really studies it for truth, without bending it to your will by taking passages out of context to use as a weapon.
Be wary my friend, we will only see more and more people claiming to be enlightened and in touch with God, and yet dismiss the bible and point to other sources or their own power and declare themselves of having a god-like status.

Originally posted by NewCaptainAmerica

Be wary my friend, we will only see more and more people claiming to be enlightened and in touch with God, and yet dismiss the bible and point to other sources or their own power and declare themselves of having a god-like status.

Thank you for those comments.
Yes, I think I know exactly what you mean by the above.