This verse tells us the 144000 may not be a literal number.

Revelation 21:17
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

This angel is Michael.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book

No doubt when Michael 'stands up' so shall the dead. This is the sealing.

Everything in the old testament was a shadow of things to come. The tribes of Israel arranged themselves in the way the heavenly city was depicted but not in a mirror image.

The Messiah did not appear as the Jews thought he should. The temple of God also was not what they thought. Why would the 144000 be anymore literal?

Originally posted by iamnot
This verse tells us the 144000 may not be a literal number.

Revelation 21:17
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The Messiah did not appear as the Jews thought he should. The temple of God also was not what they thought. Why would the 144000 be anymore literal?

Oh yes. I certainly agree with you that the number is not meant to be literal.
What strikes me about the measurements in ch21 is that they can be interpreted symbolically in exactly the same way that I interpreted the 144,000.
For example, there's another 12,000 in there- ie, as I suggested, "a whole world suitable for the habitation of God's people".
And, as you say, 144 is there as well. 12x12.

Shoot.
I forgot the most important part of my post about the Hurons and the Iroquios...

The Wendat/Huron rejected Deganawidah the prophet, so he went to the Iroquois who tested and accepted him

The Huron/ Wendat are all but gone, took about 15 years after the arrival of the jesuits,
the Iroquois are still standing strong.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
THis does not affect my point that there is a difference between LIFE and DEATH, and that the dfference is a polarity.

Same ol' argument.

The difference is not a thin sharp line. It is a wide blurry, misty, no-mans land, and God is there too.

Then you don't understand what the doctrine of the Incarnation is all about.
The whole POINT of the incarnation is that divinity and humanity are distinct "natures", that GOD and not-GOD are distinct opposites, and the miracle and the wonder is in the fact of holding them together. Not blurring the distinction. Holding them together in union.

OK, fine. The distinction makes no difference to me.

Yes, I can see what you're doing.
It seems that my championship of the Biblical faith, as belief in a Creator God, is so threatening to you that you are determined to break it down. It's not going to happen.

I am not threatened.

I am only talking. I used to have a simple approach like yours, and I thought that if chance brought us together then maybe it means you are receptive to growing beyond a simple exoteric approach to faith.

"I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready." 1 Corinthians 3:2

If you aren't ready for solid food, then that's ok. God will take care of you when you are ready. Good luck.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by Student X
The difference is not a thin sharp line. It is a wide blurry, misty, no-mans land, and God is there too.

Same old argument.

I thought that if chance brought us together then maybe it means you are receptive to growing beyond a simple exoteric faith.

No, I'm not. I've made my commitment.

144,000 is the amount of individuals who are going to heaven.

Rev ch 5 verses 9, 10:

"9 And they sing a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.'"

The 144,000 are to rule along with Micheal, as kings over the earth. If everyone goes to heaven there would be no one to rule over.

But God promises in Psalms 37 verses 10 and 11:

"10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."



It makes perfect sense, Gods original purpose for the Earth was for humans to populate it and live in peace, forever.

Genesis 1:28:

"28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.'"


God never changed his purpose for the earth. It remains the same. But because of Adam and Eve, it is taking a detour to get there.

This is going to sound absolutely insane...especially coming from a pagan.....which I've been for 28 years or so?

But I had a dream - a very lucid, you know....special...dream....where I was told I was sealed for Manasseh.

I had to look it up. I was surprised it was a tribe of Israel or something that was lost.

I still don't quite understand all that. Maybe it is a get out of hell free card or something?

Originally posted by hadriana
Once I dreamed I was given a Bible - a book of ultimate truths. Inside there were a lot of unwritten pages but the only writing in it was very clear "LOVE ONE ANOTHER".

There's a story told about St John the Apostle. How when he was a very old man, he used to speak to his church from time to time. It took him a lot of effort to get to the front, and when he got there, he always said the same thing-
"Little children, love one another."
One day somebody plucked up the courage to ask him why he always said the same thing instead of varying the message; his answer was;
"It was the Lord's command; and if that is done, that is sufficient."

Originally posted by lucidclouds
Your exactly right. Here's the third group.

Rev 7 verse 9 and 10"

"9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

The third group is the Great Crowd. These would be the ones who make it out of Armageddon and on into a paradise earth.

I don't believe in the Rapture theory, but people who do believe in the Rapture theory will argue that you've got these groups the wrong way round. Because they say the "great crowd" are the ones who are "raptured" up to heaven while the 144,000 stay behind on earth.

I think they're right in one respect, anyway; the "great crowd" are surely in heaven. They're standing "before the throne" and "before the Lamb". That's in heaven.

But, as to whether someone has received the Holy Spirit in their heart, that is between them and the Holy Spirit. Or do you propose an objective way to tell? Would you have it be a matter of reciting proper creed for the proper authorities?

in the book of acts chapter 1 vs

9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

just thought that was interesting...



but acts chapter 2 vs 1

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven(or the sky) and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

these people were speaking in tongues...they actually went out and spoke to the people in the city that had many different languages yet every person understood what they were saying....

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

some say that when a person receives the holy spirit that you will speak in tongues.




now after peter talked to the people there and explained that this is the work of god and that the time was now to get your house in order..of course everyone was amazed that everyone could understand what they were saying seeing how there was many different languages....then the people wondered what it was they must do to be saved from this corrupt generation....and peter answered them....


37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


so the way i see it is this....peter says you have to repent of your sins and realize that you are part of this corrupt seed that has been passed along since the fall of adam and eve ...but you must also not only repent but also be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then you will receive forgiveness...only then will you receive the gift and be sealed.

i know the wide spread belief and following of the catholic church and left out the most important part of getting baptized and that is the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit...Jesus. i myself have been baptized in Jesus name and not the father son and holy ghost...i believe that Jesus is the name of the father son and holy ghost....and plus its what peter was instructed to tell the people...

Originally posted by Funkydung
the way i see it is this....peter says you have to repent of your sins and realize that you are part of this corrupt seed that has been passed along since the fall of adam and eve ...but you must also not only repent but also be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then you will receive forgiveness...only then will you receive the gift and be sealed.

Sounds reasonable to me. And I like to remember 1 Corinthians ch12 v3, that "no-one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."

I like Daganawidah's version:
"All will share at his return, and all dreams shall be realized."
Seems to me a proper parent would want to be fair to everyone.
It appears the Laws he promulgated were about living here.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Danbones]